SV UU Metagame Discussion - Teal Mask Edition

[so_dynamic]

Surprised the subject of whether Torn is busted doesn’t garner more discussion, from where I’m looking it really is hard to find any drawbacks to its use other than having to run inaccurate moves unless using the physical set (which is definitely a sleeper).

It’s really uniquely threatening in that it can either just take the outlast route vs some of its checks via knock+uturn+regen making stuff like rotom etc. just really poor into it, or just going from the other side and mauling everything that isn’t like Bellibolt with fly/fight coverage. I’ve tried building a lot in this tier now over the last couple of months and it just seems really asinine whatever route you take unless you run Bellibolt 24/7. Would be interested to see how others find it because I really am stumped.

I don't think Tornadus is broken in this tier, but it certainly makes the tier less enjoyable by being so good. There is AV that can click knock off for free on the incoming Torn check/counter, limiting its survivability, and then u-turn and continue to do this while easily being to outlast a lot of its answers. Even staying in on your answers is usually low risk with AV, as you can either live one hit and then click knock off or pivot into a more offensive check. In some cases, even switching into your answers with Tornadus can be a good play. Boots sets with both taunt and knock can also be very annoying for some defensive checks.

Offensively, it is quite annoying to handle. Thundy-T gets outsped, knocked, and then becomes worse into Tornadus. Rotom-W isn't a threat offensively, but you can opt to run Thunder Wave to cripple it if Torn stays in on the turn you do so. Shocks is a decent check, but has no recovery and needs tbolt to threaten it enough. Arcanine-H and Oricorio-Pom Pom are both solid offensive answers since they both have access to recovery, but still tricky to play in to Torn due to their rocks weakness. Of course, Arcanine-H has to worry about focus blast/grass knot as well.

Defensively, it is more manageable. Empoleon can knock it, ice beam it, slow pivot, and roost of damage, but it has to worry about focus blast and taunt. Jirachi is an underused answer, and has everything it needs to deal with Tornadus-T. There's body slam to cripple it while bypassing taunt, wish to recover off its hits, and u-turn to slow pivot out of it. Slowking can come in and pivot out with chilly, but needs to be cautious of taunt. Gastrodon is a questionable answer due to the possibility of grass knot and taunt. Cresselia might be an option, but is not so good into Taunt and NP variants. There are other defensive answers like Goodra-H, Tinkaton, and Tyranitar, but of course they lack recovery and Goodra-H and Tyranitar fear Focus Blast.

There are also some alternative ways to mess with Tornadus as well as even get a surprise kill on it. There have been a few Stun Spore Sinistchas that have been used in tournament play, and that can be very useful to deal with Torn. That also makes me think that Stun Spore could be used on Amoonguss to also get it on the switch in. You could even click it while Torn is in if you're brave enough. Thunder Wave Cresselia, Slowking, Slowbro, or even Thundurus-I could be used to mess with it. Scarfed Mienshaos running stone edge can surprise Tornadus, but only if they are chipped as stone edge does 72-86 to the analysis recommended 208 hp AV Torn, and 85-101 to a Tornadus lacking HP investment. Thunder Punch Meowscarada can also surprise Torn, as a banded TPunch is a guaranteed kill, while non banded Meows will do 88-104. Scarf could also be used on some of its usual offensive answers to get surprised kills on unsuspecting Tornadi clicking U-Turn.

It has quite a few answers, but it is not hard for Tornadus to have a more favorable interaction than its answers. Knock off/U-Turn/Regenerator is a busted combination, and makes using Tornadus free, easy to use, and normally low risk to medium/high reward. It is hard for Tornadus to not find a use in any game with all the offensive, stall breaking, and defensive utility it can give you. Some of the counterplay I listed above is underused, and should probably be explored more with how centralizing this mon is. As far as bustedness goes, It doesn't seem OP but it is very close.

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

NP torn-t kinda shreds all the counters. Most of the counters are either more def pivot answers that rely on smth like tera electric to not lose... or taunt as well they have to worry about.

What are common counterplays? Well its pivot into a def pokemon to scare it out because bulky AV sets and taunt boots arent exactly strong enough to take advantage of that.

Smth like empoleon you listed can be taken advantage of with nasty plot and then blown away with +2 focus blast, rotom-w can get worn down over the course of a game via knock off and attacks over the course of a game. Slowking has to hope it doesnt get confused or that it eats a taunt and now has to either hard switch out to smth or hope it can get a future sight -> scald off and force it out or burn tera electric, .

Regen already makes torn-t hard to answer but imagine staving off one sweep because u threatened CB bullet punch for ex. but then it just comes back in out of range and starts going ham. You alr have to consider the many sets torn-t runs from AV, boots, and even NP which makes it frustrating asf and hard to tell (obv there are ways to try to spot but its never going to be 100%)

You can try all you can thinking its some taunt variant but then it reveals NP on ur switch to slowking, 50% rotom-w, empoleon, or smth else like ur torn-t of ur own... You are in a bit of a pickle arent you.

 

[udongirl]

I have never seen NP tornadus in either ladder or tour and do not understand the opinion that it is broken. Even on paper, there are no reasons to use a set that can't take advantage of utility moves and regenerator at all.
More to the point, most of the tornadus I have witnessed in the most recent time have had AV. This means many people think tornadus can't do its job if it can't check special attacker, and actually there were many situations where I was bothered by its low bulk when I used a boots pivot set which seems standard.
As for centralization, I see it only as a SS lando kind of thing, and I don't think tornadus has a significant negative impact on tier, because both focus blast and grass knot are utility-impairing moves to use in a general pivot set, I feel that we see far less of them than we did in the early tier days.

 

[so_dynamic]

NP torn-t kinda shreds all the counters. Most of the counters are either more def pivot answers that rely on smth like tera electric to not lose... or taunt as well they have to worry about.

What are common counterplays? Well its pivot into a def pokemon to scare it out because bulky AV sets and taunt boots arent exactly strong enough to take advantage of that.

Smth like empoleon you listed can be taken advantage of with nasty plot and then blown away with +2 focus blast, rotom-w can get worn down over the course of a game via knock off and attacks over the course of a game. Slowking has to hope it doesnt get confused or that it eats a taunt and now has to either hard switch out to smth or hope it can get a future sight -> scald off and force it out or burn tera electric, .

Regen already makes torn-t hard to answer but imagine staving off one sweep because u threatened CB bullet punch for ex. but then it just comes back in out of range and starts going ham. You alr have to consider the many sets torn-t runs from AV, boots, and even NP which makes it frustrating asf and hard to tell (obv there are ways to try to spot but its never going to be 100%)

You can try all you can thinking its some taunt variant but then it reveals NP on ur switch to slowking, 50% rotom-w, empoleon, or smth else like ur torn-t of ur own... You are in a bit of a pickle arent you.

Yea I was not saying these are all counters, just that they were all things that can answer torn based on the set

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

I have never seen NP tornadus in either ladder or tour and do not understand the opinion that it is broken. Even on paper, there are no reasons to use a set that can't take advantage of utility moves and regenerator at all.
More to the point, most of the tornadus I have witnessed in the most recent time have had AV. This means many people think tornadus can't do its job if it can't check special attacker, and actually there were many situations where I was bothered by its low bulk when I used a boots pivot set which seems standard.
As for centralization, I see it only as a SS lando kind of thing, and I don't think tornadus has a significant negative impact on tier, because both focus blast and grass knot are utility-impairing moves to use in a general pivot set, I feel that we see far less of them than we did in the early tier days.

Just because you dont see a reason to run it doesnt mean there is... it uses the pokemon usually used to pivot into it and takes advantage of them to break a team open.

Just because you saw a lot of AV doesnt mean NP cant just come in late game and swoop for the sweep esp when they will expect maybe boots or AV. They may not expect the torn-t to just claim a kill with the use of NP and just fucking over ur normal pivot.

Well dont use it as a check to special attackers. Mons can have diff roles like for ex. slowbro-g in SS can be a AV set or a phys def calm mind and thye do very different things and one set cant really replicate the other. Even smth like scarf rotom-w does different things than a bulky rotom-w. Dont use it like that then. Pack a diff special check.

 

[udongirl]

Just because you dont see a reason to run it doesnt mean there is... it uses the pokemon usually used to pivot into it and takes advantage of them to break a team open.

Just because you saw a lot of AV doesnt mean NP cant just come in late game and swoop for the sweep esp when they will expect maybe boots or AV. They may not expect the torn-t to just claim a kill with the use of NP and just fucking over ur normal pivot.

Well dont use it as a check to special attackers. Mons can have diff roles like for ex. slowbro-g in SS can be a AV set or a phys def calm mind and thye do very different things and one set cant really replicate the other. Even smth like scarf rotom-w does different things than a bulky rotom-w. Dont use it like that then. Pack a diff special check.

Sorry if I'm mistaken, but I thought this discussion was about whether tornadus deserved a ban. I don't think a check to a common set being destroyed by an unpopular set justifies a ban on tornadus. The absence of mons that can check all sets is not an uncommon story, nor does it seem important.

 

[Freeroamer]

I have never seen NP tornadus in either ladder or tour and do not understand the opinion that it is broken. Even on paper, there are no reasons to use a set that can't take advantage of utility moves and regenerator at all.
More to the point, most of the tornadus I have witnessed in the most recent time have had AV. This means many people think tornadus can't do its job if it can't check special attacker, and actually there were many situations where I was bothered by its low bulk when I used a boots pivot set which seems standard.
As for centralization, I see it only as a SS lando kind of thing, and I don't think tornadus has a significant negative impact on tier, because both focus blast and grass knot are utility-impairing moves to use in a general pivot set, I feel that we see far less of them than we did in the early tier days.

I don’t understand the implication that running Focus Blast somehow impairs Torn’s utility, when it perfectly complements coverage by allowing it to hit Empoleon, Arcanine-H and Goodra-H alongside other flying resists. The only things that Heat Wave actually hits harder are Scizor and Jirachi which are not super common currently and are still massively bothered by other moves Torn runs, and Thundurus formes which are very prone to being knocked and outlasted anyway. To me the only reason you’d run Heat Wave over Focus Blast at this point is accuracy concerns or if you were super scared of SD Scizor and you were relying on Tera+Heat Wave to beat it…

I don’t really see the Lando comparisons, I just think Torn has to do very little on its sets to beat the vast majority of the metagame. Flying move/Focus Blast/Knock Off/U-Turn on AV already limits you to a grand total of about 4 Pokemon that can come in more than once, and thanks to the fact that they’re passive and the combination of U-Turn+Regenerator only Bellibolt is actually providing any kind of risk to the Tornadus user. This is on it’s least offensively inclined set! Then you consider the fact that it can viably run Taunt, Nasty Plot, Specs and it just seems way too much to me to reasonably account for.

 

[Moutemoute]

I personally agree with the people who are comparing Tornadus-T in SV UU with past gen (especially SM/SS) Landorus-T. Both of them are the keystone of their metagame and are by far the best Pokémon in their tier. While I do agree that Tornadus-T can run multiple options (like Nasty Plot and Choice Specs variants which are really threatening on paper), most of the time people will use more conventional sets such as AV because AV Tornadus-T is an incredible glue mon to fit on a team thanks to its massive utility provided by Knock + U-turn + Regenerator + ability to sponge a shit ton of hits. Without this AV, it's way tougher to use Tornadus-T. Nasty Plot variants are insane on the offensive spectrum but you sacrifice most of the time Knock Off and even U-turn to grab more coverage, which remove a shit of the utility of Tornadus-T. Also some variants of Tornadus-T such as Choice Specs are super limited to niche archetype (mainly Rain or Rain support), because this set doesn't want to miss its Hurricane at all because it has one objective, make holes on the opponent's team and without that Rain support it can't achieve this effectively. I also think that while Tornadus-T is super annoying to deal with for more balanced teams, it's not that an issue for HO/Stall (even tho it's a nuisance for Stall due to Knock Off + U-turn + Regenerator). Also people are sleeping on Meowscarada and Weavile even tho they're both really threatening for Tornadus-T, just saying. Also, while Regenerator is as OP as ever, Tornadus-T being weak to Stealth Rock kinda neutralize this aspect (to a certain extent). A lot of Pokémon are also running Tera Elec in the current metagame to be able to catch out of guard Tornadus-T or provide to the team a better answer to it. Does this means it's too centralizing ? Maybe. But Electric-type is really great on its own (especially in a tier with threats such as Scizor, Thundurus-T or Zapdos-Galar). I personally don't see Tornadus-T as an issue and I think it brings much more positives than negatives to SV UU. I can understand the complain but I disagree with it. It's just a fantastic Pokémon to have around.

 

[carbonlifeform]

Agree that Torn is nowhere near broken. It can be a pain to whittle down, but it has to stay in on consecutive hits at some point, and if it's not, then that means that it's putting its teammates through the hazard wringer. It's easy to build teams that don't handle it well when you're getting started in the tier, but you kind of learn what to expect and how to deal with it in the flow of a match. Ultimately, the level of threat Torn presents is based on who is controlling the tempo. If you're already on your back foot, a well-played Torn can make it harder to regain an advantage without making a risky play that can put you deeper in the hole. But that's not even a "git gud" situation, that's just 'mons. Some matches spiral due to a single good or bad play (or hax), and you move on to the next one.

If it feels oppressive at all, it's because of how perfectly it synergizes with other top meta threats -- particularly Iron Treads. Like, you start off with those two and you have all of the utility you need (hazards, removal, knock, pivoting, good-enough damage output on both sides of the spectrum) in a pair of 'mons that cover each other's weaknesses freakishly well and that can be teched in a variety of directions to make sure counterplay isn't completely rote. I'm not sure how many tiers have ever had such an easy team-building starting point. Throw in your water-type of choice (to cover the lingering water, fire, and ice weaknesses) and you're free to go crazy from there -- this is where I weep with joy and sadness both that 'Mola isn't around anymore.

But, again, neither 'mon's ubiquity suggests a level of brokenness to me so much as unique, highly valuable role compression that seems common across tiers in SV. Both 'mons need to make big decisions in the builder around how to prioritize utility vs coverage. Both 'mons have solid, highly viable answers both offensively and defensively -- offensively, in particular, there are a number of 'mons that can handle both in one slot, especially with good slow pivot support. You just need to, you know, remember what tier you're building for.

 

[Gilbert arenas]

Ban:
Torn
Iron hands
Cress
Dogi

 

[Magcargo]

I don't get why NP Torn-T is considered more broken than at least 5+ other mons in the tier that can auto-win with little issue. On Preview, I am 10 times more scared of Quaquaval, SP Cresselia, Galarian Moltres, Weavile, Sinistcha, and even mons like Salamence and Gyarados under screens and various rain threats like Baraskewda than I am of Torn in terms of wincons. In a fast paced tier like this, every turn counts, and what I've consistently have seen is that Torn is giving away free turns by missing Hurricane / Bleakwind at crucial times and the like. I suppose NP sets can be made more dangerous with Tera Blast Ground or something, but I have not seen these when playing yet and even these sets still have counterplay like Rotom-W, Meowscarada, and Weavile. Meanwhile, mons like Quaquaval and Galarian moltres are very difficult to revenge kill and have far more lethal snowballing potential than Torn, a mon llike Sinistcha is significantly easier to pilot to win IMO, and Cresseila is just plain bullshit with less Trick / Encore mons in the tiers top ranks (I guess I could give Encore Quaquaval a try?).

Like, take my opinion with a grain of salt, as I am hardstuck at 1400s here, but it feels like stuff like stuff like Screens and Rain have a way more overbearing and constraining effect on the tier than Torn-T. That isn't to say Torn-T isn't a great Pokemon- AV and boots are both fantastic sets that are able to provide consistent utility via Knock and U-Turn Support, while also being a great special sponge and having good match-ups into other Pokemon like Iron Treads and some Okidogi variants. However, its just that - a good Pokemon - like its buddy, Iron Treads, which arguably fixes more problems than it creates.

I personally agree with the people who are comparing Tornadus-T in SV UU with past gen (especially SM/SS) Landorus-T. Both of them are the keystone of their metagame and are by far the best Pokémon in their tier. While I do agree that Tornadus-T can run multiple options (like Nasty Plot and Choice Specs variants which are really threatening on paper), most of the time people will use more conventional sets such as AV because AV Tornadus-T is an incredible glue mon to fit on a team thanks to its massive utility provided by Knock + U-turn + Regenerator + ability to sponge a shit ton of hits. Without this AV, it's way tougher to use Tornadus-T. Nasty Plot variants are insane on the offensive spectrum but you sacrifice most of the time Knock Off and even U-turn to grab more coverage, which remove a shit of the utility of Tornadus-T. Also some variants of Tornadus-T such as Choice Specs are super limited to niche archetype (mainly Rain or Rain support), because this set doesn't want to miss its Hurricane at all because it has one objective, make holes on the opponent's team and without that Rain support it can't achieve this effectively. I also think that while Tornadus-T is super annoying to deal with for more balanced teams, it's not that an issue for HO/Stall (even tho it's a nuisance for Stall due to Knock Off + U-turn + Regenerator). Also people are sleeping on Meowscarada and Weavile even tho they're both really threatening for Tornadus-T, just saying. Also, while Regenerator is as OP as ever, Tornadus-T being weak to Stealth Rock kinda neutralize this aspect (to a certain extent). A lot of Pokémon are also running Tera Elec in the current metagame to be able to catch out of guard Tornadus-T or provide to the team a better answer to it. Does this means it's too centralizing ? Maybe. But Electric-type is really great on its own (especially in a tier with threats such as Scizor, Thundurus-T or Zapdos-Galar). I personally don't see Tornadus-T as an issue and I think it brings much more positives than negatives to SV UU. I can understand the complain but I disagree with it. It's just a fantastic Pokémon to have around.

Stall exists in this tier???? I have not come across a single stall team while playing. I'd imagine Stall would also love to have Torn-T around due to its utilities as a pivot + stall loving Regen. I've seen most Balance teams also love Torn-T (and Iron Treads) presence in the tier for its defensive qualities. In fact, one could say that almost all teams in the tier love Iron Treads and Torn-T, and when building, it feels more like selecting 4 mons + Iron Treads / Torn-T than selecting 6 mons, which IMO isn't a bad thing.

 

[Jonbot]

On Preview, I am 10 times more scared of … Sinistcha,

Sinistcha?? I am also trapped in 1400s but like, I’ve never had an issue with it. Torn, arcanine, meow, weavile, moltres all check it and those are just the ones that are on my teams. Torn, arcanine and moltres are also really good against sinistcha since burns either don’t affect them or don’t matter, and strength sap isn’t that big of an issue (apart from non choice band arcanine-H which doesn’t appreciate it). It doesn’t feel like a good mon at all rn since it can’t really hurt a lot of the top mons and there are options that just do its job better e.g. cress or goltres

 

[Ataki]

Sinistcha?? I am also trapped in 1400s but like, I’ve never had an issue with it. Torn, arcanine, meow, weavile, moltres all check it and those are just the ones that are on my teams. Torn, arcanine and moltres are also really good against sinistcha since burns either don’t affect them or don’t matter, and strength sap isn’t that big of an issue (apart from non choice band arcanine-H which doesn’t appreciate it). It doesn’t feel like a good mon at all rn since it can’t really hurt a lot of the top mons and there are options that just do its job better e.g. cress or goltres

Neither of the mons you mentioned (Cress, Goltres) fill its specific job, which is a spinblocker for BO, Balance, and hazard-oriented Hyper Offense teams. It just so happens that as a dedicated spinblocker, Sinistcha has enough tools (including Tera) to take over games should it be given a free opportunity. I am midladder as well and I have seen firsthand how easily Sinistcha can get out of hand, not to mention the combination of CM, Tera, and Strength Sap is very annoying to muscle through (which you are forced to do after it teras).

Your post didn't really account for the better relevant checks to Sinistcha either. Harcanine (unless banded and/or Tera Rock) is not a good check as it takes significant damage from Sinistcha's STAB moves and fails to OHKO it before being healed off and stalled to death by Strength Sap. Howl variants are also fodder, as the boost is easily removed (it can be good for stalling Saps, but this is a stalemate at best). Moltres has no way to boost its SpA, meaning it is setup fodder after Sinistcha teras (offensive variants forcing it to Tera is worth a mention, though). Likewise, Assault Vest Torn-T is also setup fodder after Sinistcha teras, and it may not even need to tera if it gets to +2 SpD before Torn comes in. Specially oriented Dark-types that can boost and damage Sinistcha post-tera are the best checks, which include Moltres-Galar, Hydreigon, and Hoopa-Unbound. Strong faster Ground-types are also good to hit it on the unboosted Physical defense after it Teras, such as Mamoswine and Iron Treads.

Sinistcha is usually not overwhelming in practice, as the threat of Toxic and/or strong super effective special hits force it to tera, making it more exploitable on the physical side. However, it can still steamroll in specific matchups and some fairly common scenarios (coming in on a Treads spin, for example).

 

[BolTingBlazie]

Well i've got some news, I hear is picking up in usage on the OU ladder and has a very real chance of rising, in other words tier king Torn-T could be leaving for OU.

Good news is that and might finally be dropping to UU soon.

Torn-T leaving for OU would shake up the meta drastically, and if it does rise and the two aforementioned pokemon fall, i'm interested to see how things play out.


Toxapex and Landorus-T seem like they would have their place in the metagame so they would be really cool drops if we got them.

 

[hotpineapple]

Torn-T has a very big foothold in the metagame so seeing it being booted out of the tier will be interesting
Sadly this means i can't just slap him on any team anymore :(

 

[GULLY]

I had a well thought out about Ogerpon C dropping that I accidentally erased while finishing so I’ll do a tldr of something u can’t read lol. The SD set can beat most of the tier. After +2 something dies. Sturdy and Embody will make it win certain matchups it “shouldn’t” be able to. Sneas and Gliscor getting banned might kill all the theorymon for this and even Lando but it’s fun.

 

[Lily]

Garchomp moved from UUBL to OU
Garganacl moved from UUBL to OU
Amoonguss moved from UU to OU
Skeledirge moved from UU to OU

Ninetales-Alola moved from OU to UU

We lost a couple friends and gained a demon.

GLHF in the last few weeks before DLC!

 

[hotpineapple]

amogus was the team member i didn't know was so important until he was gone

 

[Jonbot]

Say your prayers grimmsnarl.

Rain is gonna have a nice time with aurora veil ho running around. I can see loaded dice weavile being our own baxcallibur for a while, especially with the only ice resists not appreciating a +2 knock off.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

I'm kinda surprised torn-t didn't leave it really did pick up steam up in OU at the end of the month, but I guess it might not rise until next month.

I am certain eventually UU will lose tornadus-t though

 

[Nikebeamz]

goodbye skeledirge

 

[BolTingBlazie]

View attachment 575581
goodbye skeledirge

All of Quaquaval's big checks have left besides Clodsire, who isn't super good in UU. Should action be taken on Quaquaval if its quickban worthy now that Dirge and Amoonguss is out of here? I mean Quaquaval has always felt a bit unhealthy even with those mons in the tier

 

[StarFalcon555]

GRIMMSNARL IS DEAD

 

[carbonlifeform]

How aggressive is the tiering action going to be this month? Alotales could enable a lot of stuff and a decision will have to be made about it vs abusers vs Light Clay. And then DLC is gonna bring a bunch of new TMs with no way of knowing how they'll impact things. And then all of that is going to be followed massive tier shakeup ~two weeks later. I've appreciated the level of aggressiveness of the UU Council, and I think it paid dividends in this weird in-between meta, but it feels like asking a lot of y'all's time to make so many decisions just to have to then revisit those decisions immediately.

 

[hotpineapple]

the metagame is going to become alot more ho oriented
as a member of the balance community i want to kill myself