SV UU Metagame Discussion - Teal Mask Edition

[HydreigonTheChild]

Im going to be changing my opinion on I feel its ban worthy... after toying with it after some days and unless ur using smth like alo, amoonguss (still doesnt exactly beat it just also loses to curse), and salt cure is annoying asf since ur now under much more pressure.... idk if its just me but i havent seen a lot of people using setup garg and just rocks garg it feels like....

ID garg and curse garg are very very annoying since smth like hitting it over and over doesnt exactly work when it starts boosting up. And a sp. def invested garg is annoying asf esp since salt and body press kinda suck facing against

soooo... ur counterplay is limited to (maybe) and this is basically it in terms of smth that can switch in well.. offensive counterplay exists but once it tera's you better hope its smth u can take down... if it tera water and it sets up a boost and unless u have a meow, tbolt thundy-t, or just a hydreigon specs draco ur not really breaking through it. Offensive counterplay obv exists and if it doesnt tera is much more managable and such is SD Sub or SD (if you dont take a salt cure that is)... but i hate how every one of them can lose to a tera and just shift the MU on your head

Tera dragon, fairy, ghost are even more and ur counterplay can be diff each time and smth u may not have... i dont think its fairy to expect a person to prep for so many sets. Sure not every opp will have the tera to MU fish ur team but even then garg is putting in lots of work.
(maybe we cna wait for next QB slate or suspect but god its annoying asf)

 

[Lily]

I'm still finalising votes but I'm voting DNB on Garg, highly disagree with the sentiment that it's super difficult to switch into when it really is not. There are a number of mons that just seriously mess with Garg and can even make it a liability.


Regens off Salt Cure chip, easily forces a Tera, can spread Knock and force Recovers easily so you can play around Tera Garg with other stuff if need be.


Leftovers Chomp only loses 6% of its HP when dealing with Garg and can boost past it if need be.


Amoonguss ruins Garg's day. Use Grass Knot. You don't even really need Cloak but there's no real reason not to run it.

users
Yes it sucks to not be able to run Boots on everything but some things really don't mind running it. I don't want to talk about all of them but some include Galarian Slowbro, Hippowdon, Quaquaval, Galarian Weezing, and Skeledirge. The latter is especially dangerous IMO.

~general knock users~
A Knocked Garg is essentially a dead Garg, it really needs its Leftovers to function properly. The amount of things that learn Knock is so high that it's easy to even accidentally build teams that have 4 users of the move so forcing a Knock onto it is just super easy, and once you do that it's really not as challenging to break through it.

~special attackers~
We definitely have a lot of good special attackers to deal with it too between Hoopa-U, Volcanion, Hydreigon, Goodra-H, etc; and you can slow pivot these guys in with something like Slowking if need be. They all threaten big damage on it. You can also use sub sets on them to really ruin Garg's day, Sub Tera Ghost Hydreigon has become a favourite of mine for that reason.

Personally I'm leaning towards only banning Kommo-o but I'll be trying to finalise that tonight. I haven't really felt too much difficulty building in this metagame, and I'm not seeing the brokenness people talk about with stuff like Iron Hands or particularly Garchomp which has honestly been super unimpressive; this HO meta I'm told about doesn't seem to exist in my laddering experience. I think we're too eager to bring the power level back down to whatever we think UU is "supposed" to be when that just isn't how tiering works; this is what we have, and we should get used to it. If we wanna play with weaker mons, we have many other options all the way down to ZU for that.

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

Regens off Salt Cure chip, easily forces a Tera, can spread Knock and force Recovers easily so you can play around Tera Garg with other stuff if need be.

And doesnt do well into setup... I have seen 0 mienshao since posts shifts.

Leftovers Chomp only loses 6% of its HP when dealing with Garg and can boost past it if need be.

Idk if its just me but ive seen 0 non lefties chomp, its either LO or loaded dice or helmet. Sure u can boost up but garg can also use ID and just boost up alongside you and ruin ur day. if you are spikes + dragon tail sure that is a neat set and I agree its a hard counter

Amoonguss ruins Garg's day. Use Grass Knot. You don't even really need Cloak but there's no real reason not to run it.

Sure... until its tera dragon or ghost and still eats it up... yes it forces a tera but even then being able to be salt cured and having to be pressured esp under hazards or be vulnurable to knock since you mentioned that there are enough users and amoonguss can be easily pressured once salt cure'd unless ur using synthesis as well

users
Yes it sucks to not be able to run Boots on everything but some things really don't mind running it. I don't want to talk about all of them but some include Galarian Slowbro, Hippowdon, Quaquaval, Galarian Weezing, and Skeledirge. The latter is especially dangerous IMO.

True... but they all lose to setup garg which I feel is a very very nuts threat. (never seen dirge without boots) but I agree that the others can fit it but even then everything but g-weezing and g-bro lose to setup

~general knock users~
A Knocked Garg is essentially a dead Garg, it really needs its Leftovers to function properly. The amount of things that learn Knock is so high that it's easy to even accidentally build teams that have 4 users of the move so forcing a Knock onto it is just super easy, and once you do that it's really not as challenging to break through it.

Ive still put in major work with garg even without lefties.. sure it sucks but its not "leftiless garg is awful and a dead weight mon" it has put in a lot of work without it even having lefites... having lefties is a bonus. Last gen a leftiless exca wasnt the best... but u dont go "this pokemon sucks because it got knocked by nihilego :( "

 

[G-Luke]

Yeah, I dislike the arguemnet of "Yeah you forced a Tera". Ok, my Curse WinCon Tera'd. It was gona Tera anyway, now howndo you beat me again?

 

[Moutemoute]

Regens off Salt Cure chip, easily forces a Tera, can spread Knock and force Recovers easily so you can play around Tera Garg with other stuff if need be.

Just want to comment on that one. I've been playing a fair amount of games using AoA LO Mienshao and while it's true you can OHKO Garganacl, that's kinda in theory and in practice it's much tougher. You're most of time in a scenario where you have to bring Mienshao on Garganacl and if it uses either Curse or Iron Defense, the 1v1 instantly becomes way harder for Mienshao. On the other hand, you kinda need the extra power of the Life Orb to pressure Garg effectively but this opens Mienshao a shit ton to entry hazards and when you take into consideration those + Salt Cure chip damages + LO recoil, even with Regenerator it becomes not that easy to play around Garg during the whole match. G-Luke already mentionned the Tera argument so I won't go in details but yeah, if my gameplan is to clutch with Garg, I don't give a fuck if I have to Tera it a bit earlier, Rock-type isn't the best defensive typing anyway. Last but not least, Mienshao isn't the easiest Pokémon to build around, because its speedtier is kinda iffy. You're faster than things such as Thundurus-T or Sandy Shocks while being slower than key threats such as Tornadus-T, Meowscarada, Weavile or Iron Treads..so ehhhhh.

The best counter imo to Garg is Clear Smog + Covert Cloak Amoonguss but fuuuuck man, that's a shit ton to invest just to check a specific Pokémon..

 

[Lily]

And doesnt do well into setup... I have seen 0 mienshao since posts shifts.

252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Close Combat vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Garganacl: 265-315 (65.5 - 77.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

it does a lot to non tera garg, and forcing it to tera (and thus knowing its type and knowing it can't change again) makes it very easy to play around with other stuff.

Idk if its just me but ive seen 0 non lefties chomp, its either LO or loaded dice or helmet. Sure u can boost up but garg can also use ID and just boost up alongside you and ruin ur day. if you are spikes + dragon tail sure that is a neat set and I agree its a hard counter

subsd (esp tera ghost which is the most common one ive run into) doesn't really care about this, it still 1v1s id garg easily. spikes dtail beats non fairy garg super comfortably

Sure... until its tera dragon or ghost and still eats it up... yes it forces a tera but even then being able to be salt cured and having to be pressured esp under hazards or be vulnurable to knock since you mentioned that there are enough users and amoonguss can be easily pressured once salt cure'd unless ur using synthesis as well

all but dragon take enough from grass knot or sludge bomb for it to not be negligible, and dragon is going to have to deal with being weak to stuff like kommo, hydrei, garchomp, mence, goodra. amoonguss is definitely pressured by knock + salt cure but in that same vein garg won't have leftovers to keep healing off amoonguss's attacks and will run out of recovers pretty fast.

True... but they all lose to setup garg which I feel is a very very nuts threat. (never seen dirge without boots) but I agree that the others can fit it but even then everything but g-weezing and g-bro lose to setup

they don't. gbro beats idef (but can lose to curse eq sometimes, not with tera though), hippo just whirlwinds out every set, quaval needs tera ghost but wins the 1v1 and it usually wants tera ghost anyway IMO, gweez just beats it comfortably and so does dirge. theres a few ppl running covert dirge on ladder and it has been causing massive issues. I also forgot to mention Sinistcha which multiple people here have touched on.

Ive still put in major work with garg even without lefties.. sure it sucks but its not "leftiless garg is awful and a dead weight mon" it has put in a lot of work without it even having lefites... having lefties is a bonus. Last gen a leftiless exca wasnt the best... but u dont go "this pokemon sucks because it got knocked by nihilego :( "

no it's not literally dead once it's knocked obviously but it makes it extremely hard for garg to switch in and get boosting opportunities the way it usually does. suddenly every little uturn, sr switchin, etc that you're taking starts adding up very hard. excadrill actually was infamously terrible at switching into nihilego for that same reason, it would just lose the hazard war and in that sense it pretty much was dead weight once knocked.

Yeah, I dislike the arguemnet of "Yeah you forced a Tera". Ok, my Curse WinCon Tera'd. It was gona Tera anyway, now howndo you beat me again?

that's a great question, let's go over some of the answers

Water: Flower Trick, Ivy Cudgel, Rotom/Sandy/Thundy Thunderbolts, Amoonguss GKnots and Matcha Gotcha become viable forms of counterplay.

Fairy: Goodra, Heatran, Hydreigon can now beat you. Gigaton Hammers start hurting a lot. You can no longer set up on Sludge Bomb users (GWeez, Amoonguss. Munkidori, Gengar).

Dragon: This tier 9 viable Dragon types, most of which run Draco Meteor or Scale Shot, so you can see why that's problematic. You're also now weak to moves from Enamorus-T, Gardevoir, Sylveon, Azumarill, and GWeez's Strange Steam.

All of these are also huge Tera hogs, which is a problem in and of itself. A large number of Pokemon in this tier really want the ability to Tera between stuff like Rotom-W, Garchomp, Heatran, Iron Hands, Kommo-o, Meowscarada, Ogerpon, Galarian Zapdos, Scizor, Hisuian Arcanine, and more I'm probably forgetting. Using Garg inherently means you're taking away opportunities from these guys to Tera because Garg itself pretty much has to do it to be useful. Most of this should also account for what Moute has stated above.

None of this is necessarily to say that Garg won't end up becoming a problem but I think the idea that it needs an immediate week 1 quickban comes from a refusal to adapt rather than a lack of counterplay.

 

[Captain Marshadow]

I feel like people are sleeping on Munkidori. It's somewhat dependent on Tera to get that consistent coverage it needs, it's a tad bit prediction reliant, and it's awkward "kinda fast" speed tier leaves it really susceptible to revenge kills courtesy of Meow, Weavile, and other superfast mons in the tier, but when it gets to do it's thing its does it's thing hard.
All of Psychic, Poison, and Fighting (the Tera I run for it currently) have their fair share of safe and reliable switch-ins in the tier, but not one of those things wants to guess wrong and switch in on a Specs boosted move of one of the other types. Heatran doesn't want to get smacked by Tera Fighting Tera Blast when trying to sus out a Psychic or Sludge Wave, Mandibuzz doesn't want to get smacked with Sludge Wave or Tera Blast and risking Toxic when attempting a switch in on Psychic, Gengar doesn't want to take Psychic when trying to switch in on Sludge Wave or Tera Blast, etc. And if you feel that the prediction's a bit too weighed against you and you don't want to risk it, you can click U-Turn with your cozy 30% chance to Toxic the foe (not typed Steel or Poison) and switch into something on the opponent's own switch, free of charge.

 

[somethingaboutsomething]

I feel like people are sleeping on Munkidori. It's somewhat dependent on Tera to get that consistent coverage it needs, it's a tad bit prediction reliant, and it's awkward "kinda fast" speed tier leaves it really susceptible to revenge kills courtesy of Meow, Weavile, and other superfast mons in the tier, but when it gets to do it's thing its does it's thing hard.
All of Psychic, Poison, and Fighting (the Tera I run for it currently) have their fair share of safe and reliable switch-ins in the tier, but not one of those things wants to guess wrong and switch in on a Specs boosted move of one of the other types. Heatran doesn't want to get smacked by Tera Fighting Tera Blast when trying to sus out a Psychic or Sludge Wave, Mandibuzz doesn't want to get smacked with Sludge Wave or Tera Blast and risking Toxic when attempting a switch in on Psychic, Gengar doesn't want to take Psychic when trying to switch in on Sludge Wave or Tera Blast, etc. And if you feel that the prediction's a bit too weighed against you and you don't want to risk it, you can click U-Turn with your cozy 30% chance to Toxic the foe (not typed Steel or Poison) and switch into something on the opponent's own switch, free of charge.

In my opinion Gengar is the superior wallbreaker/scarfer due to better stabs and speed, and fezandipiti does the toxic chain uturn thing better.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

In my opinion Gengar is the superior wallbreaker/scarfer due to better stabs and speed, and fezandipiti does the toxic chain uturn thing better.

Yeah I would say the best loyal 3 member down here is okidogi, as its definitely a scary fat breaker that's pretty hard to switch around, but is overall healthy to have down here and i'm glad its found its place down here.

Also bans today

 

[EnesBatur]

Not gonna comment on the bans but is it just me or did Moutemoute mean to vote DNB on Ceruledge? I looked at the reasoning and it didn't seem to line up with a Ban vote.

 

[Swagodile]

Crazy that Garchomp got the boot but Garganacl is allowed to stay

 

[somethingaboutsomething]

Can we talk about iron treads? In my opinion with the abundance of Pelipper HO and Rotom-Wash Balance, it feels a lot more like a liability, being unable to switch in rain and Rotom is just a nightmare for it in general (Also Weezing galar forces it to run iron head, but it doesnt like to give up ice spinner either)

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

Can we talk about iron treads? In my opinion with the abundance of Pelipper HO and Rotom-Wash Balance, it feels a lot more like a liability, being unable to switch in rain and Rotom is just a nightmare for it in general (Also Weezing galar forces it to run iron head, but it doesnt like to give up ice spinner either)

Press x to doubt?

iron treads is just amazing in general esp with booster and can be a great nuisance to teams esp with its fast spin that nothing else can compete with... cyclizar feels to frail, defog in this meta feels to hard to pressure without spikes up and u may as well have the spikes up.

Iron treads also checks a lot of things and with booster can be a great revenge killer against offensive squads still and also can fit smth other than knock ....

But to not make this a one liner I want to suggest the use of why? Because its faster than iron treads and we all know how valuable that is... being faster than it with a pivot or a boosting set allows you to not be revenge killed by the metal elephant. Thundurus is also tying with scream tail, maushold, and outspeeds iron jugulis, zarude, and mienshao

 

[Moutemoute]

Not gonna comment on the bans but is it just me or did Moutemoute mean to vote DNB on Ceruledge? I looked at the reasoning and it didn't seem to line up with a Ban vote.

That's indeed a massive fail from my part omg I'm so cringe for real. I was DNB side (it's pretty clear in the explanation). My bad community, that's a F.

 

[Jonbot]

252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Close Combat vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Garganacl: 265-315 (65.5 - 77.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

it does a lot to non tera garg, and forcing it to tera (and thus knowing its type and knowing it can't change again) makes it very easy to play around with other stuff.



subsd (esp tera ghost which is the most common one ive run into) doesn't really care about this, it still 1v1s id garg easily. spikes dtail beats non fairy garg super comfortably



all but dragon take enough from grass knot or sludge bomb for it to not be negligible, and dragon is going to have to deal with being weak to stuff like kommo, hydrei, garchomp, mence, goodra. amoonguss is definitely pressured by knock + salt cure but in that same vein garg won't have leftovers to keep healing off amoonguss's attacks and will run out of recovers pretty fast.



they don't. gbro beats idef (but can lose to curse eq sometimes, not with tera though), hippo just whirlwinds out every set, quaval needs tera ghost but wins the 1v1 and it usually wants tera ghost anyway IMO, gweez just beats it comfortably and so does dirge. theres a few ppl running covert dirge on ladder and it has been causing massive issues. I also forgot to mention Sinistcha which multiple people here have touched on.



no it's not literally dead once it's knocked obviously but it makes it extremely hard for garg to switch in and get boosting opportunities the way it usually does. suddenly every little uturn, sr switchin, etc that you're taking starts adding up very hard. excadrill actually was infamously terrible at switching into nihilego for that same reason, it would just lose the hazard war and in that sense it pretty much was dead weight once knocked.



that's a great question, let's go over some of the answers

Water: Flower Trick, Ivy Cudgel, Rotom/Sandy/Thundy Thunderbolts, Amoonguss GKnots and Matcha Gotcha become viable forms of counterplay.

Fairy: Goodra, Heatran, Hydreigon can now beat you. Gigaton Hammers start hurting a lot. You can no longer set up on Sludge Bomb users (GWeez, Amoonguss. Munkidori, Gengar).

Dragon: This tier 9 viable Dragon types, most of which run Draco Meteor or Scale Shot, so you can see why that's problematic. You're also now weak to moves from Enamorus-T, Gardevoir, Sylveon, Azumarill, and GWeez's Strange Steam.

All of these are also huge Tera hogs, which is a problem in and of itself. A large number of Pokemon in this tier really want the ability to Tera between stuff like Rotom-W, Garchomp, Heatran, Iron Hands, Kommo-o, Meowscarada, Ogerpon, Galarian Zapdos, Scizor, Hisuian Arcanine, and more I'm probably forgetting. Using Garg inherently means you're taking away opportunities from these guys to Tera because Garg itself pretty much has to do it to be useful. Most of this should also account for what Moute has stated above.

None of this is necessarily to say that Garg won't end up becoming a problem but I think the idea that it needs an immediate week 1 quickban comes from a refusal to adapt rather than a lack of counterplay.

Hi, low ladder player here. Isn’t a sign of an unhealthy Pokemon the fact that team building is restricted by it? If you need to bring multiple Pokémon just to check it, then in my books it’s unhealthy. Garg is a text book example of that. The tera dragon option also just got a lot better since the 2 most broken dragons just got the boot.

Just to quickly prove my point, you listed 3 tera options just there. If I were to bring mienshao, a check you suggested, I would have to bring 2 extra Pokemon just to cover its tera options. I would like to remind you that this Pokemon isn’t some incredibly powerful offensive sweeper, it’s a stealth rock setter with a knack for foul language and salt, that’s it. I feel like, even if not broken in a more traditional sense, it’s so restrictive on team building that it shouldn’t be allowed in the tier.

 

[Blue glass]

That's indeed a massive fail from my part omg I'm so cringe for real. I was DNB side (it's pretty clear in the explanation). My bad community, that's a F.

So was Ceruledge quickbanned by mistake? That's pretty funny.

 

[ThatOneApple]

Thoughts on bans


I understand that this kinda had to happen as the scale shot set was super restricting on building, but its a shame that this mon couldve been such a nice addition to the tier. Hazard setter, phasing with dtail, had a nice speed tier that could be used for scarf, so much jam packed into one mon. Unfortunately, the dlc gave it scale shot and all these positives needed to be removed because of just how negative one set was. Its sad, but it had to happen.


Probably couldve provided some nice utility with rocks and all that if it werent for the stupid amount of variance in its sweeping sets.


Good riddance lol

 

[Lily]

Hi, low ladder player here. Isn’t a sign of an unhealthy Pokemon the fact that team building is restricted by it? If you need to bring multiple Pokémon just to check it, then in my books it’s unhealthy. Garg is a text book example of that. The tera dragon option also just got a lot better since the 2 most broken dragons just got the boot.

Just to quickly prove my point, you listed 3 tera options just there. If I were to bring mienshao, a check you suggested, I would have to bring 2 extra Pokemon just to cover its tera options. I would like to remind you that this Pokemon isn’t some incredibly powerful offensive sweeper, it’s a stealth rock setter with a knack for foul language and salt, that’s it. I feel like, even if not broken in a more traditional sense, it’s so restrictive on team building that it shouldn’t be allowed in the tier.

I get what you're saying here and to be honest with you it's pretty muddy. Centralisation is needed for balance and so some Pokemon /should/ be restrictive; last gen you couldn't get away with running just 1 check to Cobalion for instance, even if it was something as sturdy as Hippowdon, just because the odds you'd run into it were so high and if the unexpected were to happen (your hippo gets lured or is needed for something else) then you'd need backup counterplay, because top mons aren't necessarily something you can rely solely on skill to outplay, preparation is important too.

It actually is a powerful offensive sweeper, I don't think anyone truly believes Garg would be even close to broken without its setup options. Just because it doesn't do the typical Dragon Dance -> GG thing we've grown accustomed to doesn't mean it's not offensively inclined, Garg is just one of the best Pokemon at turning offense into defense.

It'll get voted on again either way. It could easily be true that the level of restriction Garg brings is too much, that's absolutely true- but restriction is 100% necessary for a healthy metagame, otherwise you end up with too many threats to cover and the entire tier becomes cheese.

 

[seiuqq]

In my honest opinion, ceru is far from banworthy, even with polt it's seemed manageable

 

[Fracterra]

I get what you're saying here and to be honest with you it's pretty muddy. Centralisation is needed for balance and so some Pokemon /should/ be restrictive; last gen you couldn't get away with running just 1 check to Cobalion for instance, even if it was something as sturdy as Hippowdon, just because the odds you'd run into it were so high and if the unexpected were to happen (your hippo gets lured or is needed for something else) then you'd need backup counterplay, because top mons aren't necessarily something you can rely solely on skill to outplay, preparation is important too.

It actually is a powerful offensive sweeper, I don't think anyone truly believes Garg would be even close to broken without its setup options. Just because it doesn't do the typical Dragon Dance -> GG thing we've grown accustomed to doesn't mean it's not offensively inclined, Garg is just one of the best Pokemon at turning offense into defense.

It'll get voted on again either way. It could easily be true that the level of restriction Garg brings is too much, that's absolutely true- but restriction is 100% necessary for a healthy metagame, otherwise you end up with too many threats to cover and the entire tier becomes cheese.

I don’t think Garg is broken. Good, absolutely, and if it drops to ‘Muh RU it needs to be quickbanned. It can run quite a few sets, just feels like Kommo-o lite.

Yeah, I dislike the arguemnet of "Yeah you forced a Tera". Ok, my Curse WinCon Tera'd. It was gona Tera anyway, now howndo you beat me again?

Hisuian Zoroark Moment

 

[somethingaboutsomething]

Can somebody give me tips on how to counter rain? I took a break for like 2 weeks and now i feel lost

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

Can somebody give me tips on how to counter rain? I took a break for like 2 weeks and now i feel lost

, tera water , specs hydreigon doesnt counter rain but kinda goes ham on the teams, rotom-wash with protect can be very annoying for such teams, to can be very annoying and can be annoying thanks to the reset but doesnt counter it, to thanks to its high bulk

 

[Fracterra]

Can somebody give me tips on how to counter rain? I took a break for like 2 weeks and now i feel lost

, tera water , specs hydreigon doesnt counter rain but kinda goes ham on the teams, rotom-wash with protect can be very annoying for such teams, to can be very annoying and can be annoying thanks to the reset but doesnt counter it, to thanks to its high bulk

Same as this, but add Assualt Vest Iron Hands with Fake Out, it can be very annoying. And Volc with Tera Electric/Grass/Ground if they have Thun-T/Torn-T

 

[Szark]

The way people talk about

makes me wonder if we're playing different game because I really haven't had that much issue with it.

Between Sub Swords Dance

, Sub, NP, Flash Cannon, Dark Pulse

and

existing I really haven't found it that much of an issue.

Base Garg needs Tera to beat these, which I still believe to be a rather positive thing, sure you can say "I was going to Tera anyway" but in reality you don't queue with mentality that you WILL Tera this specific Mon.

You can also use your own Tera. Tera Steel or Ghost for , Ghost makes you completely immune to Body Press and Earthquake meaning most Gargs can only use Salt Cure to break your Sub. Steel matches worse onto Garg itself since its vulnerable to Body Press and Salt Cure hits harder on the offchance it sticks but hates taking STAB Flash Cannon and I found Levitate Steel to be a pretty decent type in current meta since unlike Ghost you don't make yourself vulnerable to Meow and Weavile Knock. For I have been using Tera Flying since it makes you resist Body Press and immune to EQ. I have found that if I successfuly dodged one with Tera I won 1v1 even if Garg had Tera'ed already.

I also believe there's lots of counterplay that hasnt been explored yet. Mienshao, Okidogi, Sinischa etc, even Leftovers over Covert Cloak means you are taking a lot less from Salt Cure chip.

 

[Fracterra]

The way people talk about View attachment 559809 makes me wonder if we're playing different game because I really haven't had that much issue with it.

Between Sub Swords Dance View attachment 559810, Sub, NP, Flash Cannon, Dark PulseView attachment 559811and View attachment 559812existing I really haven't found it that much of an issue.

Base Garg needs Tera to beat these, which I still believe to be a rather positive thing, sure you can say "I was going to Tera View attachment 559809 anyway" but in reality you don't queue with mentality that you WILL Tera this specific Mon.

You can also use your own Tera. Tera Steel or Ghost for View attachment 559811, Ghost makes you completely immune to Body Press and Earthquake meaning most Gargs can only use Salt Cure to break your Sub. Steel matches worse onto Garg itself since its vulnerable to Body Press and Salt Cure hits harder on the offchance it sticks but View attachment 559809 hates taking STAB Flash Cannon and I found Levitate Steel to be a pretty decent type in current meta since unlike Ghost you don't make yourself vulnerable to Meow and Weavile Knock. For View attachment 559810 I have been using Tera Flying since it makes you resist Body Press and immune to EQ. I have found that if I successfuly dodged one with Tera I won 1v1 even if Garg had Tera'ed already.

I also believe there's lots of counterplay that hasnt been explored yet. Mienshao, Okidogi, Sinischa etc, even Leftovers over Covert Cloak means you are taking a lot less from Salt Cure chip.

These are only 3 specific Pokémon, and 3 specific sets, but I still think Garg shouldn’t be banned, let’s give the meta a little more time to cook, and as people get more pressured to find ways to beat Garg, the meta will develop. Cannot wait for for the 3 months between tier shifts era to swing around. Also, since they might be slowing down production of Pokémon games, we might be in Gen 9 for 4, maybe even 5 years before the next Generation starters come around.