ban this sh*t right now.
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Metagame SV UU Metagame Discussion - The Indigo Disk
- Thread starter Lily
- Start date
ban this sh*t right now.
Latias is broken, hands and ceru are probably broken, blaziken did some insane stuff but it also died while doing it so it's probably fine, light clay could go but tbh I think it's maybe fine if you ban the biggest abusers, everything else is chilling probably.
i can confirm iron hands is broken, that thing has carried me so many times
can't wait for iron hands to get banned again for the third time, only for it to get unbanned yet again with yet another seismic wave of drops due to dlc #73, while fc gets away with going x-0 with it in yet another uu team tour by clapping everyone's asscheeks with it for an average of about two and a half kills a game despite everyone and their mothers knowing he's the ultimate wielder of grippers so incredibly immense they make kawhi leonard's giant ass palms tremble in fear
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I'm just popping in to say that it is insane how many people misspell Ninetales
Like you see the word so much, and yet people still misspell it.
This is like going to a store every day and then still not knowing how to spell its name.
I'll say either ban Light Clay or do nothing. I am a proponent of the ideology that Light Clay/Screens can only be worth it in a metagame with broken Pokemon, and it is usually best to see what people find worthy to spend an entire extra (mostly mid/low) slot just to support it.
Magcargo mentioned DLC1 type teams, and one thing someone may realize is that the moment the brokens were banned in that meta, Light Clay immediately was out of the picture. Light Clay is harder to balance the lower power you go. But UU is definitely extremely powerful right now. That is not to say it's an exact match, but that I do not believe Ninetales/Light Clay to be a problem in absence of gigantic Tera shenanigans or the plethora of pretty nutty setup sweepers right now.
In short: Keep Light Clay for now and see what people find worthy to spend an entire extra slot to support, and then if the obvious brokens being banned does not show progress in slowing screens down, then it can be a more serious conversation IMO.
If you think that this is backwards, keep in mind I simply do not consider a Light Clay Screens team to be inherently advantageous. With Grimmsnarl having to run two moves, an item and several turns to get your team setup going in preparation for more turns to setup, is not inherently broken IMO, or advantageous to more conventional strategies of just playing a more BO playstyle. And I don't think running an Ice-Type without boots that has to manually switch out is broken either, honestly.
But what I can see more immediately being broken is a metagame with Tera + setup moves galore and high stat spreads. AV is just the icing on the top to these crazy good wincons, making it worth it IMO. And I believe this to be true for any conventional high-power metagame.
Like you see the word so much, and yet people still misspell it.
This is like going to a store every day and then still not knowing how to spell its name.
I'll say either ban Light Clay or do nothing. I am a proponent of the ideology that Light Clay/Screens can only be worth it in a metagame with broken Pokemon, and it is usually best to see what people find worthy to spend an entire extra (mostly mid/low) slot just to support it.
Magcargo mentioned DLC1 type teams, and one thing someone may realize is that the moment the brokens were banned in that meta, Light Clay immediately was out of the picture. Light Clay is harder to balance the lower power you go. But UU is definitely extremely powerful right now. That is not to say it's an exact match, but that I do not believe Ninetales/Light Clay to be a problem in absence of gigantic Tera shenanigans or the plethora of pretty nutty setup sweepers right now.
In short: Keep Light Clay for now and see what people find worthy to spend an entire extra slot to support, and then if the obvious brokens being banned does not show progress in slowing screens down, then it can be a more serious conversation IMO.
If you think that this is backwards, keep in mind I simply do not consider a Light Clay Screens team to be inherently advantageous. With Grimmsnarl having to run two moves, an item and several turns to get your team setup going in preparation for more turns to setup, is not inherently broken IMO, or advantageous to more conventional strategies of just playing a more BO playstyle. And I don't think running an Ice-Type without boots that has to manually switch out is broken either, honestly.
But what I can see more immediately being broken is a metagame with Tera + setup moves galore and high stat spreads. AV is just the icing on the top to these crazy good wincons, making it worth it IMO. And I believe this to be true for any conventional high-power metagame.
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One thing I feel is that i think
is really strong even without light clay boosted veil or without screens in general, 
too, a metagame with no screens and stored power poison-latias is way less manageable than a metagame with screens abusers and no I used to be one of those that felt that
or 
needed to go from OU after 
, but seeing how screens died down after that ban, i got a proper view on how it affects metagames/ still might be broken but i don't think the picture is that clear when and [to a lesser extent] are UU pokemon
After playing some more I have changed my mind on it's fucked up how efficiently it trades with everything not named Lati@s even witihout screens. Usually needs multiple Mons to answer, it's stupid bulky and has stupidly good coverage for the tier, recovery for days and isn't locked to any particular team style. This thing is dumb being able to tank Tera Ground Iron Treads Earthquakes and +0 Earthquakes from Garchomp from full with no Phys Bulk investement and I believe the tier is better without it.
this thing is annoying and furstrating and very easy to lose to. I am not quiet sold on it being broken as much as just voletile since it needs decent positioning itself. I am not opposed to a ban but not for it and I would rather see it go than Clay tbh
I just do not get it. Outside of Hands and Latias I don't think Veil is opressive like at all. Closest to that is probably Manaphy like Apple calcs show but having used TG Manaphy on Veil a lot the speed tier really holds back there. Hazard Stack is vaible, Webs are viable, BO is viable and I don't think "screens adding nothing to the tier" is a very good reason to ban personally.
I will write something once I see thing Mon do anything in any game.
it's fucked up how efficiently it trades with everything not named Lati@s even witihout screens. Usually needs multiple Mons to answer, it's stupid bulky and has stupidly good coverage for the tier, recovery for days and isn't locked to any particular team style. This thing is dumb being able to tank Tera Ground Iron Treads Earthquakes and +0 Earthquakes from Garchomp from full with no Phys Bulk investement and I believe the tier is better without it. this thing is annoying and furstrating and very easy to lose to. I am not quiet sold on it being broken as much as just voletile since it needs decent positioning itself. I am not opposed to a ban but not for it and I would rather see it go than Clay tbh I just do not get it. Outside of Hands and Latias I don't think Veil is opressive like at all. Closest to that is probably Manaphy like Apple calcs show but having used TG Manaphy on Veil a lot the speed tier really holds back there. Hazard Stack is vaible, Webs are viable, BO is viable and I don't think "screens adding nothing to the tier" is a very good reason to ban personally. I will write something once I see thing Mon do anything in any game.
with the first wave of bans being finally complete, i think we should look mainly at 
, 
and 
as the next main suspect/voting targets, they all have been banworth at some point in UU and while i do agree that dlc2 brought up new resources to deal with them, i think they still are problematic pokes on average, having limited counterplay that either severely weakens some archetypes to the point where they become significantly less usable or making you go out of your way to try to fit counterplay to them and open more holes on your team than you should have by doing so.
other pokes that might be worth keeping an eye on brought up by the people but that imo aren't quite on the same level of the three i mentioned earlier are:
, and as the next main suspect/voting targets, they all have been banworth at some point in UU and while i do agree that dlc2 brought up new resources to deal with them, i think they still are problematic pokes on average, having limited counterplay that either severely weakens some archetypes to the point where they become significantly less usable or making you go out of your way to try to fit counterplay to them and open more holes on your team than you should have by doing so.other pokes that might be worth keeping an eye on brought up by the people but that imo aren't quite on the same level of the three i mentioned earlier are:
Agree with askov that I think Ceruledge is the main thing sticking out as immediately broken now to me, counterplay to this thing is pretty limited if you let it get it’s free entries and it definitely has nuts snowball potential while having better set ups and entries than blaze did easily.
I think sfuff like Gmolt Latios are definitely things to keep an eye on in the coming days, but not necessarily sure about them right now.
Latios on its specs sets has definitely felt like a very strong breaker that can definitely demolish if it gets all clicks right but there is enough pivoting options around like tornt (best mon in tier no doubt still) rachi metsgross slowking etc that makes it’s entry points less immediately punishing and adds a healthy skill to reward ratio for managing predictions and it’s more awkward entry points. I feel like this mons future will live and die more on its ability to potentially copy some of latias’s more broken shenanigans with tera cm sets etc but with the worse bulk and lack of dkiss see will have to see if this still has the same potentially overbearing impact. Gmolt may start feeling more annoying without options like hands but I’ve not found it too annoying so far but the mon is on paper ridiculous at least so something I still am very much wary of
I’ve felt pokemon like manaphy and garganacl to be a lot more manageable in a fast paced metagame although have had solid success destroying shit with curse nacl already. A potentially slower metagame after bans may reveal more about these Pokémon’s potential.
had similar thoughts about greninja where stoping it getting into battle bond has typically felt fine thanks to sfuff like torn and it’s weaker starting power and coverage, but it’s definitely a complete menace if it can do it.
cornerstone hasn’t felt too bad so far either despite being very dangerous in large part due to the double sided typing, lack of items like boots (cuts off the sturdy problem decently outside of lead too) and manageable speed tier without any access to speed boosting (outside of trailblaze that no1 really runs). A slower metagame afain may make this feel more pressing though for me.
Looking forward to seeing how stuff goes and will likely make another post in a day or so after trying out the new meta
I think sfuff like Gmolt Latios are definitely things to keep an eye on in the coming days, but not necessarily sure about them right now.
Latios on its specs sets has definitely felt like a very strong breaker that can definitely demolish if it gets all clicks right but there is enough pivoting options around like tornt (best mon in tier no doubt still) rachi metsgross slowking etc that makes it’s entry points less immediately punishing and adds a healthy skill to reward ratio for managing predictions and it’s more awkward entry points. I feel like this mons future will live and die more on its ability to potentially copy some of latias’s more broken shenanigans with tera cm sets etc but with the worse bulk and lack of dkiss see will have to see if this still has the same potentially overbearing impact. Gmolt may start feeling more annoying without options like hands but I’ve not found it too annoying so far but the mon is on paper ridiculous at least so something I still am very much wary of
I’ve felt pokemon like manaphy and garganacl to be a lot more manageable in a fast paced metagame although have had solid success destroying shit with curse nacl already. A potentially slower metagame after bans may reveal more about these Pokémon’s potential.
had similar thoughts about greninja where stoping it getting into battle bond has typically felt fine thanks to sfuff like torn and it’s weaker starting power and coverage, but it’s definitely a complete menace if it can do it.
cornerstone hasn’t felt too bad so far either despite being very dangerous in large part due to the double sided typing, lack of items like boots (cuts off the sturdy problem decently outside of lead too) and manageable speed tier without any access to speed boosting (outside of trailblaze that no1 really runs). A slower metagame afain may make this feel more pressing though for me.
Looking forward to seeing how stuff goes and will likely make another post in a day or so after trying out the new meta
Now that the bans are out let's see a few more mons that could be or not be broken.
I have been mostly using it and not really running into it. I don't it is broken right now with the fast paced meta but it is very good. Presence of actual special attackers this time around makes it harder for it to just wall everything especially with Luster Purge SpDef drops sometimes forcing it out. I do think it has the potential to be broken though.
this time around just like Garg we have special attackers, Meowscarada leaving means there are less U-Turns thrown around and i geniuenly found it pretty difficult to get Weak Armor procs at times. That being said the mon is still strong and cheesy and i can see why people want it gone. It swept less games than I expected it to ngl. I think its fair to take a closer look.
initially I wanted him gone. Now I don't find him broken at all. It's a good special wall breaker that's pretty fast but also weak to most forms of priority or at least neutral. He is slower than Torn so has to navigate around Knock and Turn. Both stabs have immunities and I like it's addition to the tier overall.
man I like it. It's a strong Mon who's toolset I find interesting and fun to use. But those Ivy Curdgels hurt and it could easily become too much with Hands gone.
Man this thing has coverage for days. Today alone I learnt it has all those random coverage moves like Psychic, Discharge and Hurricane. Other than that I think Mon is just good. Can be frustrating at times to face with booster but i find that it lacks sheer breaking power so it's almost exclusively a cleaner.
one of the mons that I'm really scared of seeing in team preview. Great Coverage, decent offensive stats, very fast and Battle Bond has potential to snowball. That being said it really wants LO so it ends up chipping itself and sometimes can struggle with neutral targets. Honestly I wouldn't mind it getting banned and revisited later with Unaware mons when/if they drop.
I really want to like it more than I do because Specs hits hard and has priority in Vacuum but having no coverage is rough. Latias being gone is great for it because Kel just cannot hit that mon, Iron Hands leaving is also pretty nice. There are still a couple targets it can't hit effectively like Latios and Manaphy but it's better now.
Mon's pretty fine tbh
Boots Taunt is a goat and I love it so much
I love this mon but the weaknesses it has are really noticeable. Its one of the most fun mon for me to use with Tera because Regen Fairy with strong special attack and Giga Drain is great. However its a B tier mon.
I have been mostly using it and not really running into it. I don't it is broken right now with the fast paced meta but it is very good. Presence of actual special attackers this time around makes it harder for it to just wall everything especially with Luster Purge SpDef drops sometimes forcing it out. I do think it has the potential to be broken though. this time around just like Garg we have special attackers, Meowscarada leaving means there are less U-Turns thrown around and i geniuenly found it pretty difficult to get Weak Armor procs at times. That being said the mon is still strong and cheesy and i can see why people want it gone. It swept less games than I expected it to ngl. I think its fair to take a closer look. initially I wanted him gone. Now I don't find him broken at all. It's a good special wall breaker that's pretty fast but also weak to most forms of priority or at least neutral. He is slower than Torn so has to navigate around Knock and Turn. Both stabs have immunities and I like it's addition to the tier overall. man I like it. It's a strong Mon who's toolset I find interesting and fun to use. But those Ivy Curdgels hurt and it could easily become too much with Hands gone. Man this thing has coverage for days. Today alone I learnt it has all those random coverage moves like Psychic, Discharge and Hurricane. Other than that I think Mon is just good. Can be frustrating at times to face with booster but i find that it lacks sheer breaking power so it's almost exclusively a cleaner. one of the mons that I'm really scared of seeing in team preview. Great Coverage, decent offensive stats, very fast and Battle Bond has potential to snowball. That being said it really wants LO so it ends up chipping itself and sometimes can struggle with neutral targets. Honestly I wouldn't mind it getting banned and revisited later with Unaware mons when/if they drop. I really want to like it more than I do because Specs hits hard and has priority in Vacuum but having no coverage is rough. Latias being gone is great for it because Kel just cannot hit that mon, Iron Hands leaving is also pretty nice. There are still a couple targets it can't hit effectively like Latios and Manaphy but it's better now. Mon's pretty fine tbh Boots Taunt is a goat and I love it so much I love this mon but the weaknesses it has are really noticeable. Its one of the most fun mon for me to use with Tera because Regen Fairy with strong special attack and Giga Drain is great. However its a B tier mon.
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Iron hands being unbanned just to quickbanned again for the fourth time screams: HOW MANY TIMES WE GOTTA TEACH YOU THIS LESSON OLD MEAN
Oger has access to Trailblaze to boost its speed but I don't think anyone runs it. The opportunity cost of trading sheer power of Power Whip or utility of Horn Leech or coverage is just so high
For research: Greninja modest or timid?
Connection Terminated
I'm sorry to interrupt you blaziken, if you still even remember that name. But I'm afraid you've been misinformed. You are not here to receive +2 attack, nor have you been banned by the individual you assume. Although you have indeed been banned.
You have all been banned. Into a banlist of sounds and smells, low OU usage and viability. A labyrinth with no exit, a maze with no prize. You don't even realize that you are banned. Your lust for sweeps has driven you in endless circles, using boosting moves in front of an encore mon, always predicting a switch, yet somehow never being right.
But you will never get that boost, none of you will. This is where your story ends.
And to you, my brave zapdos, who somehow found this UU listing not intended for you. Although there was a OU rise planned for you, I have a feeling that's not what you want. I have a feeling that you are as viable as you want to be. I am remaining as well, I am nearby.
This vote will not be remembered, and the memory of everything that started this can finally begin to fade away. As the agony of every tragedy should. And to you broken sweepers trapped in the corridors: Be still and give up your tera types, they don't belong to you.
For most of you, I believe there is peace and perhaps more waiting for you after the tier settles. Although, for one of you, the darkest pit of Hell has opened to swallow you whole, so don't keep Giratina waiting, Iron Hands.
Latias, if you can hear me, I knew you would return as well. It's in your nature to help the innocent get sweeps. I'm sorry that on that day, the day you were shut out and dropped to UU, no one was there to lift you up into their OU teams the way you lifted others into yours. And then, what became of you.
I should have known you wouldn't be content to be UU, not my lati twin. I couldn't save you then, so let me save you now.
It's time to rest. For you, and for those you have carried on your teams.
This ends for all of us.
End communication.
Ledge is cheap but idk if its broken, esp with Garg in the tier. I feel that we high key need ledge for some other shitters like Iron Moth & friends, since it is one of the best moth checks around. Bitter Blade is also a more difficult click with Helmet Chomp around to chip it down.
Iron Moth is probably the main mon that I'm eyeballing as OP rn. I don't see mons like Manaphy and Oger-C really lasting long either, but for now they seem.... fine.
Iron Moth is probably the main mon that I'm eyeballing as OP rn. I don't see mons like Manaphy and Oger-C really lasting long either, but for now they seem.... fine.
moth is REALLY good tbh
it almost feels like blaziken again, trading needing an SD for only having 1 sweep attempt
it really likes latias leaving the tier and def is glad with hands
best set IMO is 4 attacks speed booster with fiery sludge wave energy ball dgleam, which basically hits the whole tier for massive damage, even AV torn cant stand the repeated fiery dance raises
it almost feels like blaziken again, trading needing an SD for only having 1 sweep attempt
it really likes latias leaving the tier and def is glad with hands
best set IMO is 4 attacks speed booster with fiery sludge wave energy ball dgleam, which basically hits the whole tier for massive damage, even AV torn cant stand the repeated fiery dance raises
Greninja just gotta go. Battle Bond is beyond ridiculous becasue it makes it so easy for the frog to sweep. The tier has like one good hazard removal option, all water resists get bopped by coverage, which makes Blissey the only safe Greninja check, and Blissey sucks. Between Specs, LO on Rain, and the occasional Protean sets, it's just too much for the tier. Its Speed is also beyond unhealthy. I felt like it was a lot more broken than Blaziken and I stand by that still. At least Blaziken was checked by Tera Garchomp.
I'm not that high on Ceruledge because with good positioning Weak Armor sets can't do much and BU sets can only go so far, besides the fact they can't beat Garg 1v1.
Garg might be broken in the long run but with the amount of special attackers rn + Covert Cloak I think it might bring some healthy degree of centralization to the tier right now.
Latios is bonkers. Specs sets hurt like a truck and one prediction against the Steel-type coming in and it's game over. I think this one is the closest to being broken after Greninja but I still have to test some more. Also, gimmicky CM + Stored Power sets are a waste of it.
Rockpon feels cheems because of item lock. It is a good breaker imo but with so many fast threats + tankchomp + hazards being everywhere, it's a good pokemon but certainly nowhere near good enough to even be considered centralizing.
Chomp is probably too good for the tier but I would waint until next month to see if we get Corv to get rid of it. mixed chomp is an elite wallbreaker, SD sets are very easy to be played for the strength of thet team with random teras or coverage options, and tankchomp is probably the best defensive pokemon in the tier. Best pokemon in the tier imo.
Moth is fine for now. It has so much 4mss that it's hard for it to always sweep a team. Choosing between Eball and Dgleam is already hard enough but then you act as fodder for Ceruledge still. Also, tankchomp. Good pokemon in offense, tspikes sets are good in balance, but other than that not anywhere near broken territory.
Gmolt is only stupid because of Light Clay. I don't get how it stayed because it's been a largely uncompetitive item in UU since last gen but it'll get banned sooner or later so whatever. Gmolt without screens isn't as cracked and can be handled by just hitting hard.
Kommo-o will 100% be broken after like one or two rounds of bans but for now nobody's using it but it's still ridiculous. Tera Normal Boombursts are gonna hurt the tier soon enough.
I'm not that high on Ceruledge because with good positioning Weak Armor sets can't do much and BU sets can only go so far, besides the fact they can't beat Garg 1v1.
Garg might be broken in the long run but with the amount of special attackers rn + Covert Cloak I think it might bring some healthy degree of centralization to the tier right now.
Latios is bonkers. Specs sets hurt like a truck and one prediction against the Steel-type coming in and it's game over. I think this one is the closest to being broken after Greninja but I still have to test some more. Also, gimmicky CM + Stored Power sets are a waste of it.
Rockpon feels cheems because of item lock. It is a good breaker imo but with so many fast threats + tankchomp + hazards being everywhere, it's a good pokemon but certainly nowhere near good enough to even be considered centralizing.
Chomp is probably too good for the tier but I would waint until next month to see if we get Corv to get rid of it. mixed chomp is an elite wallbreaker, SD sets are very easy to be played for the strength of thet team with random teras or coverage options, and tankchomp is probably the best defensive pokemon in the tier. Best pokemon in the tier imo.
Moth is fine for now. It has so much 4mss that it's hard for it to always sweep a team. Choosing between Eball and Dgleam is already hard enough but then you act as fodder for Ceruledge still. Also, tankchomp. Good pokemon in offense, tspikes sets are good in balance, but other than that not anywhere near broken territory.
Gmolt is only stupid because of Light Clay. I don't get how it stayed because it's been a largely uncompetitive item in UU since last gen but it'll get banned sooner or later so whatever. Gmolt without screens isn't as cracked and can be handled by just hitting hard.
Kommo-o will 100% be broken after like one or two rounds of bans but for now nobody's using it but it's still ridiculous. Tera Normal Boombursts are gonna hurt the tier soon enough.
Ok these 
have to go
also i thought
was a good counter to until i discovered it has damn hypnosis.
just does exactly what it did in DLC1, it has infinite powerful sets and they all have limited counter-play, unless youre running a scarf-trick but if your opponent is smart it'll just switch out and try another sweep later.
, with its perfect coverage + life orb single-handedly makes Blissey viable because shes the only mon that can deal with all of the crazy sp atackers in one team slot.
makes HO so hard to deal with, it can set infinite hazards while still threatning KOs because it has perfect stats, its a defensive mon, a sweeper, tank, mixed attacker, all in one beast.
Every other tier below UU has already banned, and i dont see why do we have to deal with it, especially with the amount of abusers we have rn, also, i dont think Screens HO adds anything to the tier that will be missed, aside from some very obnoxious team compositions that are unfun to deal with and even to play with. I think its toxic rightnow and all of these should go sooner rather than later...
have to goalso i thought
was a good counter to until i discovered it has damn hypnosis. just does exactly what it did in DLC1, it has infinite powerful sets and they all have limited counter-play, unless youre running a scarf-trick but if your opponent is smart it'll just switch out and try another sweep later., with its perfect coverage + life orb single-handedly makes Blissey viable because shes the only mon that can deal with all of the crazy sp atackers in one team slot. makes HO so hard to deal with, it can set infinite hazards while still threatning KOs because it has perfect stats, its a defensive mon, a sweeper, tank, mixed attacker, all in one beast.Every other tier below UU has already banned
, and i dont see why do we have to deal with it, especially with the amount of abusers we have rn, also, i dont think Screens HO adds anything to the tier that will be missed, aside from some very obnoxious team compositions that are unfun to deal with and even to play with. I think its toxic rightnow and all of these should go sooner rather than later...
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does nobody really fight kommo-o?? i see this guy regularly
Seems incredibly gamebreaking. Between Aurora Veil/Prankster Screens and the slew of powerful offense threats in the tier (namely Ogrepon-C, Quaquaval, and Garchomp - who all actually wear each others threats down) makes it pretty overwhelming. Would strongly support a suspect. Yeah idk if I just suck at playing around this thing, but it legitimately seems like the best answer to SD/trailblaze sets is to stall it out with Rocky Helmet/Rough Skin damage from Garchomp. After a Trailblaze it effectively outpaces the metagame and bar it already taking chip + you having Banded Scizor it just runs over teams. Would support a look at this as well. and are pretty similar to me - both are devastating with the right combination of moves. I almost think that the scariest Greninja-Bond sets forego Shuriken in favor of dual stab + Ice Beam + GK. Moth is difficult to deal with but is still crippled by 4mss enough to where I don't think it needs to be a tiering priority rn.
alright since there's no official news of a new ban slate (yet) and i've been doing a hefty chunk of laddering here are my post week one meta thoughts
super slept on rn, the 108 speed tier is massively unfortunate when we have so many strong 110s but vacuum wave and air slash were great adds and specs damage output is nuclear as always
probably top 5? no way this doesn't rise back to OU but it's insanely good and i will be abusing the shit out of it while i can
fuck this guy LMAO
bullet is a get out of jail free card in so many situations, good slow pivot, just really really solid in the current climate
oh my sweet prince, you will be good when the meta settles down :( hits hard with nice coverage and is surprisingly a fat fuck, kinda locked into boots though and the typing is rough
really annoying, especially with screens, but i'm also just generally seeing a lot less of it lately? the statline doesn't do it a ton of favors but i'm never happy to see it
really cheesy and i wouldn't mind seeing it gone but idt it's as broken as some people make it out to be, mandibuzz shuts it down hard, it really doesn't like priority, and the choice between hazard immunity and protection from getting one tapped is a very real one
needs tera to really do a whole lot but man if it's not annoying
i really hope these don't escape the hammer next time, even if screens don't outright break anything (although one could argue they do) they're just cheesy as shit and bad for the developmental health of the meta
you were here like a generation too late my dude, i really want this thing to work on pressure stall but it's just so hard to make click
going under a lot of radars right now i think, hates latios existing but loves hands getting nuked and still has all the same tricks
best removal in the tier, I think SpDef > PhysDef rn but it's just extremely good at being a nuisance and keeping rocks off
please stop using this if your team is that weak to chomp you have bigger problems
very suspicious of this, it's kinda tame right now but as the meta settles down a bit more i could definitely see it becoming problematic again, tera normal boomburst fuckin hurts
I've chilled out on this a lot, it's still very very good but I don't think it's nearly as broken as I did day one. Base 110 is a massively congested speed tier right now and it kinda needs Booster to set itself apart in that regard. Booster SpA + Agility kinda ain't it, you can force a lot of switches but Moth is a mon that really just wants to start getting kills or fishing for Fiery Dance boosts as soon as it gets in. STABs + Energy Ball + Dazzling Gleam is perfect coverage into this meta, and the potential that Moth has into stall is very high since we have 0 viable Unaware users (the only one we do have gets wrecked by Energy Ball anyway) and Fiery Dance lets you coinflip through things like Blissey. It can have a tough time into offense, being weak to Water Shuriken unless you Tera is tragic, and that opens you up to literally every other priority option we have. Your physical bulk is also piss poor, meaning that even through the resist you have to be genuinely worried about shit like Scizor, and solid hazard removal is pretty much a requirement since your Rocks weakness puts you into kill ranges way faster. Still extremely solid though, and if it doesn't rise back to OU I think it'll settle down nicely here.
Super conflicted about RockPon as it stands, it has a lot of shitty qualities about it but the good parts are just so insanely good. Ivy Cudgel exists as living proof of why we don't get good Rock-type moves. 100 Acc, effectively 120 BP, high crit rate, and it isn't contact, with STAB and coming off of a base 120 Attack. Most of the time you can just click the big button that says "hit them in the knees with a baseball bat" and do 40%+ with no consequences. Sturdy is also really good for it in a lot of situations, especially since it makes RockPon leads extremely hard to appropriately react to and punish since you can't kill it off rip and it will kill you. There are some reliable ways to deal with it, notably Scizor and Garchomp, but it comes at the cost of those mons being severely weakened from the beginning. However, there is a fair bit of 4MSS, with Cudgel and a Grass move being locks and the last two slots being a toss-up between Knock Off, Spikes, Swords Dance, Encore, Low Kick, U-Turn, and Zen Headbutt. Grass/Rock is also, defensively, a shit typing, and the amount of situations where Embody Aspect is helpful are very few and far between. Reliance on Sturdy to eat big hits, lack of an item slot for Boots, and general weakness to most priority options in the tier also mean that this thing hates hazards. I dunno, I feel like if I saw a real, genuinely solid argument for RockPon being banworthy that didn't boil down to "it used cudgel and killed my insert mon that should not be taking cudgel here :(" I could be convinced, but as of now I'm pretty on the fence.
I think the meta is in a pretty good place right now, getting another spinner or something like Clodsire back would be nice, but otherwise I've been having a pretty good time with it. Glad we can have some sense of permanence now that the DLCs are over :)
super slept on rn, the 108 speed tier is massively unfortunate when we have so many strong 110s but vacuum wave and air slash were great adds and specs damage output is nuclear as always
probably top 5? no way this doesn't rise back to OU but it's insanely good and i will be abusing the shit out of it while i can
fuck this guy LMAO
bullet is a get out of jail free card in so many situations, good slow pivot, just really really solid in the current climate
oh my sweet prince, you will be good when the meta settles down :( hits hard with nice coverage and is surprisingly a fat fuck, kinda locked into boots though and the typing is rough
really annoying, especially with screens, but i'm also just generally seeing a lot less of it lately? the statline doesn't do it a ton of favors but i'm never happy to see it
really cheesy and i wouldn't mind seeing it gone but idt it's as broken as some people make it out to be, mandibuzz shuts it down hard, it really doesn't like priority, and the choice between hazard immunity and protection from getting one tapped is a very real one
needs tera to really do a whole lot but man if it's not annoying
i really hope these don't escape the hammer next time, even if screens don't outright break anything (although one could argue they do) they're just cheesy as shit and bad for the developmental health of the meta
you were here like a generation too late my dude, i really want this thing to work on pressure stall but it's just so hard to make click
going under a lot of radars right now i think, hates latios existing but loves hands getting nuked and still has all the same tricks
best removal in the tier, I think SpDef > PhysDef rn but it's just extremely good at being a nuisance and keeping rocks off
please stop using this if your team is that weak to chomp you have bigger problems
very suspicious of this, it's kinda tame right now but as the meta settles down a bit more i could definitely see it becoming problematic again, tera normal boomburst fuckin hurts
I've chilled out on this a lot, it's still very very good but I don't think it's nearly as broken as I did day one. Base 110 is a massively congested speed tier right now and it kinda needs Booster to set itself apart in that regard. Booster SpA + Agility kinda ain't it, you can force a lot of switches but Moth is a mon that really just wants to start getting kills or fishing for Fiery Dance boosts as soon as it gets in. STABs + Energy Ball + Dazzling Gleam is perfect coverage into this meta, and the potential that Moth has into stall is very high since we have 0 viable Unaware users (the only one we do have gets wrecked by Energy Ball anyway) and Fiery Dance lets you coinflip through things like Blissey. It can have a tough time into offense, being weak to Water Shuriken unless you Tera is tragic, and that opens you up to literally every other priority option we have. Your physical bulk is also piss poor, meaning that even through the resist you have to be genuinely worried about shit like Scizor, and solid hazard removal is pretty much a requirement since your Rocks weakness puts you into kill ranges way faster. Still extremely solid though, and if it doesn't rise back to OU I think it'll settle down nicely here.
Super conflicted about RockPon as it stands, it has a lot of shitty qualities about it but the good parts are just so insanely good. Ivy Cudgel exists as living proof of why we don't get good Rock-type moves. 100 Acc, effectively 120 BP, high crit rate, and it isn't contact, with STAB and coming off of a base 120 Attack. Most of the time you can just click the big button that says "hit them in the knees with a baseball bat" and do 40%+ with no consequences. Sturdy is also really good for it in a lot of situations, especially since it makes RockPon leads extremely hard to appropriately react to and punish since you can't kill it off rip and it will kill you. There are some reliable ways to deal with it, notably Scizor and Garchomp, but it comes at the cost of those mons being severely weakened from the beginning. However, there is a fair bit of 4MSS, with Cudgel and a Grass move being locks and the last two slots being a toss-up between Knock Off, Spikes, Swords Dance, Encore, Low Kick, U-Turn, and Zen Headbutt. Grass/Rock is also, defensively, a shit typing, and the amount of situations where Embody Aspect is helpful are very few and far between. Reliance on Sturdy to eat big hits, lack of an item slot for Boots, and general weakness to most priority options in the tier also mean that this thing hates hazards. I dunno, I feel like if I saw a real, genuinely solid argument for RockPon being banworthy that didn't boil down to "it used cudgel and killed my insert mon that should not be taking cudgel here :(" I could be convinced, but as of now I'm pretty on the fence.
I think the meta is in a pretty good place right now, getting another spinner or something like Clodsire back would be nice, but otherwise I've been having a pretty good time with it. Glad we can have some sense of permanence now that the DLCs are over :)
hate this with a burning passion
Thoughts on current stuff
Really dont like -
Already said some stuff about this dude
being used to pick it off, which kinda makes the already stated issues it brings worse by making some counterplay less reliable into it.
Has some 4mss yes but it kinda picks and chooses its counters pretty easily. An example being the set of stabs sd and a fourth move. Defensive checks like
and 
normally check it until it brings out knock. 
and 
check it unless it has low kick. checks it unless it has play rough. etc etc. Offensive counterplay is limited to priority like bullet punch and 
first impression for the most part, as needing to land a torn focus blast to check it or flip coins in speed ties with latios isnt reliable (technically theres greninja but im gonna get into why hes not healthy soon). Now typically limited offensive counterplay being prio isnt the *worst* thing, but that in conjunction with iffy defensive counterplay just feels bleh to me personally.
Fastest unboosted thing in the tier (well other than
but whatever), meaning it can revenge kill without needing a scarf. This would be a nice addition if it werent for the fact that if it gets that revenge kill, it gets a boost to sp atk and speed, meaning it can nuke most fat stuff and outrun any potential scarfer that tries to revenge it. It also resists prio that isnt quick attack, first impression:, or vacuum wave, meaning that unless you load up on one of these, youre gonna need to sack more stuff to it to let its lorb get it low enough for the resisted prio. The simple solution would be "just dont let it get a kill," which would be nice if Hydro+ice beam+grass knot wasnt enough to hit everything at least neutrally. This means it can fit water shuriken into its last slot to potentially remove the issue of priority if the prio user gets low.
(come to think of it, a psyterrain team with oger and/or gren sounds fun given how prio is the most reliable counterplay)
Already explained here
Keep an eye on -
this thing wasnt as broken as i initially thought, as it struggles to choose between booster speed to outrun everything and booster sp atk to nuke stuff, as well as having a tiny bit of 4mss bc it wants all of fiery dance sludge wave energy ball dazzling gleam and sub (and agility on booster sp atk sets). Though the slightly differing checks do make me a bit wary of it as the tier progresses.
Just grouping these two together bc i feel they both may become a bit wacky as the tier cools off and slows down. Garg bc it could end up consuming slower paced teams and latios bc it could end up nuking them. Just a slight concern for now but im watchin them.
Some cool guys i think people should try
This dude is FAT as hell and hits pretty hard, been loving the set of stabs dtail rocks, but sd could be fun over dtail. Amazing volt blocker bc it comepletely shitstomps. Overall a great emergency answer to a lot of stuff, especially with tera, recommend giving him a shot.
This dude is mega scary for a lot of fat mola teams with sub, bc mola is just a free sub for it, and most things it pivots to dont exactly like facing down a sub dogi. can be a pain depending on its tera and the moves you have, but overall its a fun mon.
Big Nuke, stabs + air slash hit pretty much everything and then your last slot can be either vacuum wave for priority or flip turn for pivoting. Good amount of fun to be had here.
Overall Im finding the tier to be better after the bans and am looking forward to playing it more
Really dont like -
Already said some stuff about this dude
But i will add ive noticed some flash fire bulk up shenanigans popping up which kinda flips the script on prio like
Look this thing is just the same as last time, its a bit easier to prevent a weak armor proc but from what ive seen of it doesnt really matter when it just runs shadow sneak to be faster than things anyways. ESPECIALLY since sneak is super effective on 2 of our new special attackers
being used to pick it off, which kinda makes the already stated issues it brings worse by making some counterplay less reliable into it.Has some 4mss yes but it kinda picks and chooses its counters pretty easily. An example being the set of stabs sd and a fourth move. Defensive checks like
and normally check it until it brings out knock. and check it unless it has low kick. checks it unless it has play rough. etc etc. Offensive counterplay is limited to priority like bullet punch and first impression for the most part, as needing to land a torn focus blast to check it or flip coins in speed ties with latios isnt reliable (technically theres greninja but im gonna get into why hes not healthy soon). Now typically limited offensive counterplay being prio isnt the *worst* thing, but that in conjunction with iffy defensive counterplay just feels bleh to me personally. Fastest unboosted thing in the tier (well other than
but whatever), meaning it can revenge kill without needing a scarf. This would be a nice addition if it werent for the fact that if it gets that revenge kill, it gets a boost to sp atk and speed, meaning it can nuke most fat stuff and outrun any potential scarfer that tries to revenge it. It also resists prio that isnt quick attack, first impression:, or vacuum wave, meaning that unless you load up on one of these, youre gonna need to sack more stuff to it to let its lorb get it low enough for the resisted prio. The simple solution would be "just dont let it get a kill," which would be nice if Hydro+ice beam+grass knot wasnt enough to hit everything at least neutrally. This means it can fit water shuriken into its last slot to potentially remove the issue of priority if the prio user gets low. (come to think of it, a psyterrain team with oger and/or gren sounds fun given how prio is the most reliable counterplay)
Already explained here
Being honest, this is just a complete negative, i understand that that alone isnt usually enough for a qb, but i do think there are mons that are fine without it but not with it now.
One such example is
and
However, WITH veil, well... most of them dont
252 SpA Soul Dew Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 255-301 (74.7 - 88.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Soul Dew Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy through Light Screen: 127-150 (37.2 - 43.9%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Sandy Shocks Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 218-258 (63.9 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Sandy Shocks Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy through Light Screen: 109-129 (31.9 - 37.8%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Ogerpon, can still force it out pretty well... until mana teras, which is a different thing partially but it doesnt have to tera to a resist specifically with screens up, which is rough
252 Atk Ogerpon Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Manaphy: 308-366 (90.3 - 107.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Ogerpon Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Manaphy through Reflect: 154-183 (45.1 - 53.6%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Ogerpon Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Fairy Manaphy through Reflect: 77-91 (22.5 - 26.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
There are likely other examples of stuff like this, but i think the tier is better off banning light clay just to prevent more things that are usually fine from needing to get banned.
Keep an eye on -
this thing wasnt as broken as i initially thought, as it struggles to choose between booster speed to outrun everything and booster sp atk to nuke stuff, as well as having a tiny bit of 4mss bc it wants all of fiery dance sludge wave energy ball dazzling gleam and sub (and agility on booster sp atk sets). Though the slightly differing checks do make me a bit wary of it as the tier progresses.
Just grouping these two together bc i feel they both may become a bit wacky as the tier cools off and slows down. Garg bc it could end up consuming slower paced teams and latios bc it could end up nuking them. Just a slight concern for now but im watchin them.
Some cool guys i think people should try
This dude is FAT as hell and hits pretty hard, been loving the set of stabs dtail rocks, but sd could be fun over dtail. Amazing volt blocker bc it comepletely shitstomps
. Overall a great emergency answer to a lot of stuff, especially with tera, recommend giving him a shot.This dude is mega scary for a lot of fat mola teams with sub, bc mola is just a free sub for it, and most things it pivots to dont exactly like facing down a sub dogi.
can be a pain depending on its tera and the moves you have, but overall its a fun mon.Big Nuke, stabs + air slash hit pretty much everything and then your last slot can be either vacuum wave for priority or flip turn for pivoting. Good amount of fun to be had here.
Overall Im finding the tier to be better after the bans and am looking forward to playing it more
"Iron Hands: Ban. It's not as silly as people make it out to be IMO but this level of trade artist is not something that the tier needs right now and I feel we'd be better off just letting it chill in UUBL. Maybe later we can give it another shot."
I am on my IRON HANDS and KNEES, BEGGING, for the love of
itself; give up on Iron Hands being healthy in UU
It's not a good presence in the tier, it has too much bulk with great power and a good type, and Tera helps it close out those few bad MUs. It's done it the entire gen, it doen't need to keep coming back. Please let this be the last time it returns to these lands.
I am on my IRON HANDS and KNEES, BEGGING, for the love of
itself; give up on Iron Hands being healthy in UUIt's not a good presence in the tier, it has too much bulk with great power and a good type, and Tera helps it close out those few bad MUs. It's done it the entire gen, it doen't need to keep coming back. Please let this be the last time it returns to these lands.
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