SwagPlay, evaluating potential bans (basic definition of "uncompetitive" in OP)

[happy-emo]

After thinking about it and reading other's opinions and thoughts on the subject, I think that banning Swagger or banning Swagger on a Prankster user is definitely the way to go.

Though I don't see it too often, SwagPlay is an extremely luck based way to play, with the odds not in the attacker's favor. Considering that there's no sure fire way to counter it other than running a pokemon with Magic Bounce or a pokemon with Synchronize to hopefully scare them into not trying it, it's quite hard to say that it's easy to work around. Even if you give you pokemon a lum berry it only works once, meaning you get one free attack that might not even knock the pokemon out, and allowing it to wreak havoc with a dent in it's HP.

Overall, this strategy requires no skill and is seriously no fun to play against. As I stated above, I vote we ban Swagger or Swagger + Prankster.

 

[Karxrida]

Precisely! As an offense player myself who has loathed stall for generations, what I see in this archetype is the promise of a new niche in teambuilding which gives stall some fresh meat to shred and HO a healthy slice of humble pie. I feel like this discussion has been far too dominated by offense players and we could really use some more stall players like yourself weighing in.

At the end of the day, you get only twenty-four moveslots across six creatures. You get up to twelve types. You get up to six abilities. You can't possibly have an answer to everything. There is an unrealistic expectation demonstrated by many in this thread that if a threat cannot be answered by their current team without making some sacrifices (even sacrifices as minor as a single moveslot) then it is too powerful and has to be gotten rid of. People do not seem willing to accept that sometimes they will encounter a team for which their team of choice is simply not an ideal match-up and that they will lose. Constantly pruning the metagame to fit held-over expectations from earlier generations is not practical. We mustn't keep banning everything that makes our DPPt & BW teams and playstyles unable to secure us victories. When stall cried tears of blood last generation because of the sheer power of new OU heavyweights like Terrakion, did we budge? No. Did we ban stall's executioners? No. We said "c'est la vie" and we allowed nature to take its course. Why we're taking the opposite approach now is beyond me, but it isn't right. If new threats have emerged that make HO unviable, so be it. If new threats have emerged that encourage adoption of new approaches to team building, so be it.

I haven't had a problem with the bans so far this generation. They have mostly (if not entirely) been creatures which not only centralized standard play but tore through most teams in the meta save the most dedicated of anti-meta teams. But with SwagPlay, I just can't believe that a single stall team with an Elo as pitiful as even 1300 would fail to devour them, bones and all. It feels like we're banning Rock for the sake of Scissors so that it may continue on decimating Paper uninhibited.

The problem with this is that Stall is the ONLY playstyle that (technically) has a chance against SwagPlay, and even then the odds are still stacked against you. Blissey can still be fully paralyzed and cost you a turn, they can Swagger you until your attack is maxed and Foul Play you for way more damage, you still have to break their Substitutes to status them or hurt them, you still take Spike/Stealth Rock damage from switching, they can still Taunt you, and Toxic damage will stack to the point where healing yourself doesn't matter. Even SwagPlay's one "counter" is at a severe disadvantage, and that's only dealing with ONE SwagPlay member; there's still 5 more to kick your ass.

 

[Daenym]

SwagPlay as a strategy is, in and of itself, fine. If you want to take the risk of running a strategy with a greater than 50% chance of screwing yourself over, then it's not a whole lot different than any Hypnosis strategy.

But an entire SwagPlay team is clearly not in the spirit of the metagame. So leave the combination and the moves alone, but ban "SwagPlay teams", or anything that uses more than X mons with SwagPlay. It's maybe more complex than any of the bans listed in the OP, but it doesn't completely remove a viable strategy from the metagame, nor does it allow players to turn the metagame into a shitstorm of luck.

 

[Star]

No, he's not telling you that...

This happens in every suspect thread I've ever read. Someone suggests a way to beat something, then someone else replies "Well, I shouldn't be FORCED to use that". Nobody said you have to use it.

Limiting teambuilding is one of the biggest factors that leads to any ban. In order to counter Swagplay you have to bring some attackless mon like Chansey or Blissey or fucking Oblivious Numel. THIS DEFINES LIMITING TEAMBUILDING. People shouldn't have to waste team slots to counter this.

 

[Dragontamer]

The problem with this is that Stall is the ONLY playstyle that (technically) has a chance against SwagPlay, and even then the odds are still stacked against you. Blissey can still be fully paralyzed and cost you a turn, they can Swagger you until your attack is maxed and Foul Play you for way more damage, you still have to break their Substitutes to status them or hurt them, you still take Spike/Stealth Rock damage from switching, they can still Taunt you, and Toxic damage will stack to the point where healing yourself doesn't matter. Even SwagPlay's one "counter" is at a severe disadvantage, and that's only dealing with ONE SwagPlay member; there's still 5 more to kick your ass.

+6 4 Atk Klefki Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 21-25 (2.9 - 3.5%) -- possibly the worst move ever
+6 4 Atk Klefki Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 47-56 (6.5 - 7.8%) -- possibly the worst move ever

A Foul Play user only has 24 PP. It is impossible for Chansey to lose to Swagger + Prankster Klefki.
Blissey is even worse, since Blissey recovers 6.25% HP from leftovers, it similarly impossible to kill Blissey.

Do people even do damage calculations anymore? I'm over here trying to elevate the discussion into statistics and probability, but it seems like every 5 posts, people can't even keep up with basic damage calcs... let alone higher-level concepts.

I've posted this damage calculation like 3 times already, and that doesn't count the many many other people who have discussed this point in the thread.

 

[Star]

+6 4 Atk Klefki Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 21-25 (2.9 - 3.5%) -- possibly the worst move ever
+6 4 Atk Klefki Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 47-56 (6.5 - 7.8%) -- possibly the worst move ever

A Foul Play user only has 24 PP. It is impossible for Chansey to lose to Swagger + Prankster Klefki.
Blissey is even worse, since Blissey recovers 6.25% HP from leftovers, it similarly impossible to kill Blissey.

Do people even do damage calculations anymore? I'm over here trying to elevate the discussion into statistics and probability, but it seems like every 5 posts, people can't even keep up with basic damage calcs... let alone higher-level concepts.

You seem to be forgetting that it is also impossible for Chansey or Blissey to beat Klefki if it doesn't have Seismic Toss or simply due to the huge number of para turns. Also Blissey can hit itself while its confused.

 

[StonekingZ]

+6 4 Atk Klefki Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 21-25 (2.9 - 3.5%) -- possibly the worst move ever
+6 4 Atk Klefki Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 47-56 (6.5 - 7.8%) -- possibly the worst move ever

A Foul Play user only has 24 PP. It is impossible for Chansey to lose to Swagger + Prankster Klefki.
Blissey is even worse, since Blissey recovers 6.25% HP from leftovers, it similarly impossible to kill Blissey.

Do people even do damage calculations anymore? I'm over here trying to elevate the discussion into statistics and probability, but it seems like every 5 posts, people can't even keep up with basic damage calcs... let alone higher-level concepts.

I've posted this damage calculation like 3 times already, and that doesn't count the many many other people who have discussed this point in the thread.

Yes, we get it, Chansey stops it. . . As long as it doesn't hit itself. It also can't do anything to Klefki outside of Seismic Toss.
But if I don't carry a Chansey what relevancy does that serve?

 

[happy-emo]

Don't ban anything else. Swagger turning the match "into a series of coin-flips" is fundamentally the same as using any move with lower than --% accuracy. If you don't like variance, don't play pokemon. There are plenty of ways to counter swagger/confusion in general, and I feel that banning something because it is 'unfun' rather than 'unfair' takes too much bias and subjectivity into account.

1. Using moves with lower than 100% accuracy is completely your choice, not your opponent's. Plus most moves have an accuracy of over 50%, meaning it's not a coin flip.

2. It's not up for discussion because it's "unfun", it's here because it's overall not a very competitive strategy, as it relies heavily on luck. Though I did state for one of my reasons to banning it was that it wasn't fun to be up against, it's more that it makes me not want to play and not just challenging for my team.
Besides even if it was because it's unfun, it's not like the admins would ban it because they find it unfun, it would be because most people do. It's not really that biased if the majority agrees.

 

[Sinning]

+6 4 Atk Klefki Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 21-25 (2.9 - 3.5%) -- possibly the worst move ever
+6 4 Atk Klefki Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 47-56 (6.5 - 7.8%) -- possibly the worst move ever

A Foul Play user only has 24 PP. It is impossible for Chansey to lose to Swagger + Prankster Klefki.
Blissey is even worse, since Blissey recovers 6.25% HP from leftovers, it similarly impossible to kill Blissey.

Do people even do damage calculations anymore? I'm over here trying to elevate the discussion into statistics and probability, but it seems like every 5 posts, people can't even keep up with basic damage calcs... let alone higher-level concepts.

I've posted this damage calculation like 3 times already, and that doesn't count the many many other people who have discussed this point in the thread.

Nobody can argue with you. You're speaking in terms of statistics, while many of the supporters of a ban, myself included, are arguing for bans on the ground of competitiveness. You are arguing that there are counters, and we all agree. You keep trying to use statistics when this situation has nothing to do with viable counters or numbers, but rather if this strategy is competitive or not. We are speaking different languages.

 

[Yuelia]

Do people even do damage calculations anymore? I'm over here trying to elevate the discussion into statistics and probability, but it seems like every 5 posts, people can't even keep up with basic damage calcs... let alone higher-level concepts.

I've posted this damage calculation like 3 times already, and that doesn't count the many many other people who have discussed this point in the thread.

You want a damage calculation? Okay.

Blissey Seismic Toss vs. Sableye: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- aim for the horn next time

(hint: swagplayers have six team members, not one)

 

[Dragontamer]

You want a damage calculation? Okay.

Blissey Seismic Toss vs. Sableye: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- aim for the horn next time

(hint: swagplayers have six team members, not one)

I can't believe you're expecting me to list one pokemon to beat an entire team.

But I will list two pokemon that beat all except Thundurus. Chansey + Slowbro. Just switch between the two constantly, and wait for all the SwagPlay pokemon to PP-stall out.

And then beat the PP-stalled pokemon with the other 4 members of your team.

Nobody can argue with you. You're speaking in terms of statistics, while many of the supporters of a ban, myself included, are arguing for bans on the ground of competitiveness. You are arguing that there are counters, and we all agree. You keep trying to use statistics when this situation has nothing to do with viable counters or numbers, but rather if this strategy is competitive or not. We are speaking different languages.

Then please help me get rid of these posters who are getting in the way of our discussion. I'd rather talk about this "competitiveness" concept than get tangled up on all of these newbies who think that SwagPlay is some kind of unbeatable strategy.

 

[Sinning]

Then please help me get rid of these posters who are getting in the way of our discussion. I'd rather talk about this "competitiveness" concept than get tangled up on all of these newbies who think that SwagPlay is some kind of unbeatable strategy.

Haha, I'd love to be able to help you there, but I don't have that power. In the title of the thread and in the OP, it has been deemed that this thread is to discuss whether the swag play tactic should be suspected on grounds of uncompetitiveness/fairness. I suppose the only way to "get rid" of those users who don't understand this is to disregard them, since their posts are, in a sense, off topic. This issue isn't an objective one, and sadly cannot be argued through concrete evidence like statistics. It's really a more abstract, subjective issue, and to determine our course of action as a community, we must determine what is balanced or competitive, which is a subjective issue and often involves opinion. I know this is going to bother a lot of users due to the inability to discuss this issue through an objective means such as numbers, but there are plenty of arguments to be made for and against this tactic. We just have to make sure everyone involved is on the same page, and the page we need to be on is using subjective reasoning to discuss this issue. Surprisingly, this is possible without devolving this conversation into "muh opinions."

 

[StonekingZ]

Then please help me get rid of these posters who are getting in the way of our discussion. I'd rather talk about this "competitiveness" concept than get tangled up on all of these newbies who think that SwagPlay is some kind of unbeatable strategy.

Not too many people here are saying they are "unbeatable".
I've been trying to explain how this is Noncompetitive, yet, you constantly bring up your Chansey calc like that some how explains it being so. . .

 

[Dragontamer]

Then why don't you respond to my original posts on why higher-level statistics applied to this game only makes it deeper?

http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...ompetitive-in-op.3500620/page-64#post-5271296

Smogon is supposed to be the premier Pokemon Battling site. A little bit of advanced probability should not be scaring you guys off.

Here's the thing about Prankster Swag: it is a strategy that breaks Heavy Offense teams. No one can deny that. Statistically, high attack, low defense creatures lose to confusion. But then the solution is to evolve the metagame, adapt to new changes. Don't just ban something because you don't understand it.

There is beautiful math here that can describe what is going on, which can describe and predict with outstanding accuracy the situation 5, 6, 7+ turns ahead. Prankster Swag is such a simple strategy that it boils down to a math equation... Negative Binomial Distributions.

This topic only shows me people who are too scared to perform the calculations to see what does work, and what doesn't work. Thats why I'm against the ban. Now is a time to flex probability and your mental models, and flex them to the new metagame.

Its not "luck", its but one more monkey wrench into the giant probability problem that is the game of Pokemon.

 

[Ajwf]

Please stop trying to convince me that:
A.) Swagplay magically beats either of the blobs/Sylveon.
and most importantly
B.) Swagplay has the SLIGHTEST chance to beat a mediocre stall team.

Unless any of you want to claim to have some grand experience with stall and how you can't overcome swagplay, don't even try. If you do have this, I'm going to laugh and call your stall team bad. This is coming from a guy who is up there for playing the most stall games this generation.

This is a first world HO/BO problem. Stop trying to scare me into believing something that is blatantly false. Really, it can't even be debated. Stall teams are a unit and stall teams run more bulk than offensive presence on every pokemon (disregarding semi-stall). The problem solely exists for pokemon that have near-equal or higher attack stats than defensive ones and no resistances to dark with any bulk to accompany it. This is nonsense to try and pretend this problem is like the bubonic plague and so contagious it poisons/destroys everything it touches. People have made this thing like the Yeti with how many falsehoods there are. Making this problem bigger than it really is does not help discussion.

 

[StonekingZ]

Please stop trying to convince me that:
A.) Swagplay magically beats either of the blobs/Sylveon.
and most importantly
B.) Swagplay has the SLIGHTEST chance to beat a mediocre stall team.

Unless any of you want to claim to have some grand experience with stall and how you can't overcome swagplay, don't even try. If you do have this, I'm going to laugh and call your stall team bad. This is coming from a guy who is up there for playing the most stall games this generation.

This is a first world HO/BO problem. Stop trying to scare me into believing something that is blatantly false. Really, it can't even be debated. Stall teams are a unit and stall teams run more bulk than offensive presence on every pokemon (disregarding semi-stall). The problem solely exists for pokemon that have near-equal or higher attack stats than defensive ones and no resistances to dark with any bulk to accompany it. This is nonsense to try and pretend this problem is like the bubonic plague and so contagious it poisons/destroys everything it touches. People have made this thing like the Yeti with how many falsehoods there are. Making this problem bigger than it really is does not help discussion.

I'm not saying it is a problem for Stall teams or the blobs and Sylveon.
I am saying it isn't competitive. I'm not calling it the Bubonic Plague, but to say it is competitive is plain wrong. And that is what I am "arguing". That is what Smogon is all about if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Crazy Horse]

While SwagPlay is very uncompetitive in my opinion. The pokemon who really takes the cake is klefki. All of the other Swagplayers are easily one shotted while klefki carries immunities and isnt weak to any form of priority while having solid defensive stats
examples of this is 252+ Atk Mega Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Klefki: 218-258 (68.5 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery i have seen matches won with just the pure luck of swagplay and i just don't find it competitive in any way. Cheap and non-competitive are not the same thing though. The reason i think klefki is non-competitive is because it is completely up to a gambit, a gambit the opponent cannot avoid. I am sick of putting a lum berry ground type on every team i have just to make sure klefki doesn't hax me to death or do a substantial amount of havoc to it. The best counter i have used was magnet pull + magic coat subbeam + hp fire magnezone. Able to shut down klefki completely , not allow it to setup screens(u can wait on the turn it ends to kill it). while it can setup spikes potentially u can bounce them back. also this magnezone grants a perk from going against klefki specifically, but the fact that i have to run magnezone and/or a lum ground type just to make absolutely sure i don't get destroyed by klefki is in my opinion over centralizing. other prankster swagsters are very fail but klefki's bulk just breaks the thing that makes other pranksters somewhat balanced: frailty. imo ban klefki moveset w/ swagger. Atm its unhealthy for the metagame as once i get pass people's klefki its like they dont know wat to do without their hax :S
edit: also keep in mind ppl are starting to use even faster prankster users just to taunt klefki, overcentralizing just shut it down smogonites.

 

[Haru Piro]

Please stop trying to convince me that:
A.) Swagplay magically beats either of the blobs/Sylveon.
and most importantly
B.) Swagplay has the SLIGHTEST chance to beat a mediocre stall team.

I was running TrickScarf Gothi, all decents SwagPlay teams need to carry a good counter for Blobs/Sylveon.

Stall can handle Swagplay pretty well anyway, but can lose.

 

[En Passant]

Please stop trying to convince me that:
A.) Swagplay magically beats either of the blobs/Sylveon.
and most importantly
B.) Swagplay has the SLIGHTEST chance to beat a mediocre stall team.

Unless any of you want to claim to have some grand experience with stall and how you can't overcome swagplay, don't even try. If you do have this, I'm going to laugh and call your stall team bad. This is coming from a guy who is up there for playing the most stall games this generation.

This is a first world HO/BO problem. Stop trying to scare me into believing something that is blatantly false. Really, it can't even be debated. Stall teams are a unit and stall teams run more bulk than offensive presence on every pokemon (disregarding semi-stall). The problem solely exists for pokemon that have near-equal or higher attack stats than defensive ones and no resistances to dark with any bulk to accompany it. This is nonsense to try and pretend this problem is like the bubonic plague and so contagious it poisons/destroys everything it touches. People have made this thing like the Yeti with how many falsehoods there are. Making this problem bigger than it really is does not help discussion.

For those of you arguing that stall beats it: This means that everyone HAS to run stall if they want to get around it, which then classifies it as over-centralizing and thus still uncompetitive.

It's really the inverse of what you said: Just because you don't have a problem with it doesn't mean that nobody else does.

 

[Always!]

How the hell is counter-play and counter-counterplay anti-competitive then? This is the definition of fun to me, learning deeper about this game and developing stronger strategies on all sides.

Still isn't changing how it reduces the match to coinflips. :I

 

[Ajwf]

If you're running Goth, then aren't you building in counters and making a competitive team? Regardless, Goth has never been an instant killing of stall (nowhere close lel... might disable a cleric, but what's it going to do then? Sit in and try to pray something happens and chansey magically loses all of it's bulk?) and the definition you all have been using (6 swagplay) will not work. "Can always lose" just don't work. I CAN ALWAYS LOSE to an ice beam freezing every pokemon of mine indefinitely. Will it happen? I doubt I'll ever see it.

As far as I'm concerned, people are assuming that this is any more detrimental than Kyub to stall in 5th gen. Seems like the same amount of ways around Swagplay as there was for Kyurem, seems right about on the same level of "Unfair" or "Uncompetitive". Seriously, have you ever seen a well made kyurem set vs a 5th gen stall? It isn't a competition. It's a slaughter.

And so you saying that you have a coinflip's chance of winning vs a style that is perfectly built against your style is, to be honest, not worrying me. As long as I've played this game, I've known that some teams just lose to pokemon. You don't have the perfect team. If you run into talonflame without a check, you'll lose. My major stall team this generation still won't beat the anti-stall Reun set. And you tell me you MIGHT win vs 6 pokemon DEDICATED to take your style down, even if solely by luck? Come on, this doesn't bother me.

Kyurem was uncompetitive to stall in the sense of a math genius contesting a preschooler in a calculus test. Swagplay is uncompetitive in the same way a bunch of third graders slide tackling high school soccer players to stop them from moving is. I must be missing something: Because Swagger+Prankster is providing issues to Hyper offense/Bulky offense and this represents everyone's favorite way to play, ban it? Excuse me if "Uncompetitive" isn't cutting it for this bitter user.

Dry Paratroopa
I said what I said not because I'm attempting to convince people to play stall but rather to stop them from trying to find some obscure way that stall would lose here. From experience, 6 swaggerplay pokes aren't ever going to beat stall. Even most competitive builds of it fail to beat stall (to the point of in probably 10 matches vs well built swagger play teams, the lowest they've gotten me to was a 4-0). I'm not trying to bring you a solution so much as point out that this isn't new for a style to have their issues with other styles.

 

[Slayer95]

Still isn't changing how it reduces the match to coinflips. :I

No. Unless using TrickScarf is also flipping a coin.

 

[ShayminSweep]

It doesn't matter what kind of team you are using, you're still flipping a coin. That's the whole problem. Why would I play this game if I could have a coin flipping tournament? I'd still win the same amount of times. It's not possible for me to be better at 50% chances than my opponent.

 

[Yuelia]

I can't believe you're expecting me to list one pokemon to beat an entire team.

But I will list two pokemon that beat all except Thundurus. Chansey + Slowbro. Just switch between the two constantly, and wait for all the SwagPlay pokemon to PP-stall out.

And then beat the PP-stalled pokemon with the other 4 members of your team.

I'm not expecting you to beat an entire team with one Pokemon, but turn that around for a bit: why are you posting that Klefki calc? What that proves isn't that Blissey/Chansey beats Swagplay, only that it beats Klefki. (and even then, only assuming 1. Blissey/Chansey has Seismic Toss 2. Blissey/Chansey can use Seismic Toss under constant confusion 3. Klefki doesn't have Toxic). As far as I have seen (admittedly I haven't read all 1600+ posts, I'm not that patient), no one is claiming that Swagplay is unbeatable; if it were, it would have been thrown out a long time ago.

The game works in two directions, with your opponent switching out into something that can better handle your mon; your opponent isn't the ingame AI. Switching between Chansey + Slowbro isn't going to work for basically the same reason, since the swagplayer can join you and constantly switch out their mons too. Or into Thundurus, which as you said yourself, beats this strategy.

But then the solution is to evolve the metagame, adapt to new changes. Don't just ban something because you don't understand it.

As I've said before here, that's a two-way street. I used to run Swagplay myself (before I realized it made me a total asshole), and I can say that people who constantly switched to try and beat it were actually the easiest ones to beat. I adapted, and put in hazards, so no, you couldn't just switch endlessly and a halfway decent player can see a Defogger coming from ten miles away.

Here is an example of a competent Swagplay team that doesn't have to worry about stuff like Sylveon or Blissey (although it uses Pokemon that are now Uber, it still stands as a good example of what I'm talking about here). It not only beats pure mindless Swagplay counters, but restricts options even further for its abusers. It basically turns the game into a case of "roll the die and hope you get lucky". No amount of advanced probability is going to save you from the RNG deciding to have your Pokemon hit itself, while hazards prevent you from switching the problem away, while your counters are already gone.

It's not the same as banning, say, Mega Kangaskhan, or Arceus, but it doesn't have to be. It's the same reason we banned Double Team. It's the same reason we banned Moody. If you want to consistently win against Swagplay, you need to build a defensive team, and even that can't possibly 100% guarantee a win - so we're left with an extremely heavy teambuilding restriction to beat a strategy based on sheer dumb luck. It completely contradicts the efforts of this community to build a functional competitive Pokemon metagame.

It has to go.

 

[Haru Piro]

How the hell is counter-play and counter-counterplay anti-competitive then? This is the definition of fun to me, learning deeper about this game and developing stronger strategies on all sides.

Well, thats is technically true.

But, the problem isn't that.
SwagPlay is broken for the same reason of OHKO Moves/Moody/Evasion, a skill-less player can beat a skillful player only thanks to luck, isn't overpower and is pretty gimmick, but uncompetitive and unnecessary for the meta. You can not win with SwagPlay, Moody Smeargle, Minimize Chansey always, or Fissure spam, but wen you won, isn't because you was a better player than the other during the match, or because you prediction, or you team builder capabilities, is because simple luck.

If you're running Goth, then aren't you building in counters and making a competitive team? Regardless, Goth has never been an instant killing of stall (nowhere close lel... might disable a cleric, but what's it going to do then? Sit in and try to pray something happens and chansey magically loses all of it's bulk?) and the definition you all have been using (6 swagplay) will not work. "Can always lose" just don't work. I CAN ALWAYS LOSE to an ice beam freezing every pokemon of mine indefinitely. Will it happen? I doubt I'll ever see it.

Well, im run Rest+Toxic+Trick+Foul Play on Gothi, Chansey/Bliss/Syl cannot kill me, and the last turn i can take back the Choice Scarf.

I can not run a competitive team using an uncompetitive strategy only because i have one or two mons than carry a different set only for kill counters of my uncompetitives mons. Is like BW Gene+Dugtrio.