Alright so, the original plan was just to edit this into my other post when I got back form home. I got to writing and ended up spending all night and most of today writing this. I figured just making a new post was appropriate.
Shit, if there's somehow compelling evidence for God's power and existence that I had missed all these years, I don't care how big a dickcheese he is or how unfair his laws might be, I'm getting on my knees and atoning to try to receive mercy.
Okay, my headache is gone and my sister's in Colorado (these two things are not related). Let's see if I can't give a more adequate and concise response.
Your hypothetical response isn't particularly surprising; I imagine that a lot of people feel the same way and would "atone" as well. The reasoning by which you justify this response, however, I have a few issues with. Well, only one, really: why are you assuming that this hypothetical God is an asshole?
I mean, yes, the Bible doesn't exactly paint God in the brightest of colors. Or even those moderately acceptable mid-tones you'd use to paint your room so the walls don't keep you up at night. However, it is also the
flippin' Bible (TM.). As Shade has demonstrated in this thread, the Bible attributes divine intervention to events that have completely rational explanations behind them (specifically, the snake bite). If a piece of literature meant to spread His word and keep an accurate record of events that are supposed to help prove His existence (if this last part isn't true, people certainly have a tendency to treat it as though it is supposed to be) is full of holes, contradictions, and logical fallacies, why would you assume that it managed to portray God accurately?
In saying that, compelling evidence for the existence of God does not necessarily equate to compelling evidence for the existence of God as humanity has
portrayed Him. By extension, this also does not mean that His laws, punishments, and rewards are accurate, either. In addition to that, even if compelling evidence for the existence of the God that Christians, Muslims, and Jews worship was presented, it probably wouldn't be strong enough to tell who was right. Each of those religions is also accompanied by its own set of denominations and other dividers. For example, Christianity is divided between the Catholics and the Protestants. The Protestants take this division even further with their Baptist and Lutheran churches. Muslims have the Sunni and the Shiites, too. I would talk about the Jews, but
fuck Judaism I don't actually know anything about them. They probably have their own sects as well. All of them share different views on His laws and how He should be worshiped - who's to say any of them are even
right?
Until the Lord Almighty himself drops by for some real talk to actually tell us which religion got it right, no one really has any reason to believe in a God who's an asshole. As we have already noted however, the Christian / Muslim / Judaic God is pretty much an asshole (assuming, of course, that their holy books portray him accurately), and dismissing these religions because they choose to worship a deity whom they (they being the ones dismissing it) believe to be an asshole is pretty reasonable. At least, I find it more reasonable than choosing to believe that God is an asshole and worship him because new evidence was found to support His existence, and not because this evidence was augmented by even more evidence that He
actually is an asshole. That said, I don't support dismissing the existence of God entirely solely because people choose to worship Him as a huge, throbbing penis-head (a point I believe you made in your post). I'll get to what I do and don't believe about God later, though.
Basically, the hypothetical you've posted doesn't really give you a good reason to believe that God is an asshole. Evidence of His existence is
just that - you still have the flexibility to incorporate other meaningful beliefs into how you choose to seek 'atonement'. Of course, this entire point hinges on just what "compelling evidence" entails, but I don't think I'm up for debating a million different hypotheticals. Also, if I happened to assume too much about your post, I apologize. I'm sure you'll let me know, though.
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All that aside, I’m actually happy Jorgen posted what he did. It highlights one of my major issues with organized religion (or maybe just religion in general): people believe in an asshole.
Whether that decision is conscious or not is probably up for debate due to the fact that most people more than likely only believe in God because their parents did (so, re: indoctrination), but that’s for another discussion.
I find that religion is often the lifeblood for a lot of the bigotry and hatred that impedes our progression to a more idealized world (a sentiment that I imagine is shared by many others in this thread). I also think that most of this stems from the belief that God must be infallible and the Bible must be taken literally. What I don’t understand though, is
why God must be flawless and
why the Bible must be taken literally. Hell, even in Louisiana, where people are super hardcore about their religion, they teach you that the Bible wasn’t actually put together until
200-300 years after Jesus died. If Jesus wasn’t even around to QC Check the book’s skeleton, why should it be viewed as a reliable source of (factual) information?
People are more than capable of incorporating their own values into the religious practices. Many religious individuals I have met recognize that there’s no real way to determine who’s right and who’s wrong; they feel that as long as you believe in God, you’re good. Others think that as long as you’re a good person, you’re good. While I understand that the purpose of religion is to provide a sense of community through solidarity of belief, couldn’t the same thing be accomplished if you didn’t allow religion to become such a pervasive part of your life?
Not that I feel you shouldn’t treat your religious beliefs as an important facet of your life. Rather, I wonder why many individuals refuse to personalize their religious beliefs and instead rely on the testament (hee hee) of a 2000 year-old book for an accurate portrayal of their creator.
Working at Pizza Hut introduced me to all kinds of people. For a while, I worked alongside a religious fellow named Daniel. I don’t remember what religious denomination he subscribed to, but he was fun to be around most of the time. He’d usually come to me with some pretty unique questions (“Gabe, how do I make my sperm taste better?”; “If I was gay, would you go out with me?”). Stuff like that. The differences in our views made our conversations entertaining, and the insight he provided into that sort of mentality was invaluable.
The conversations weren’t always so positive, though. One day we started discussing kids and adoption and he told me that my sexual orientation made me unfit to raise children.
It made me absolutely furious to hear that.
Most of the people who pass that kind of judgment don’t fucking know me. Why would this guy, who’s actually gotten to know me, continue to perceive sexual orientation as a meaningful moniker of morality (fuck yeah, alliteration)? I would think that one’s ability to fulfill their children’s physical and emotional needs would be more pertinent qualifiers of parenthood. It was baffling and very hurtful.
Not all of my experiences have been like this, though. My friend Alex
is very cute was not exactly like this, but my religious stance and sexual orientation made him kind of uncomfortable for a bit, I think. When he learned that I was an atheist he was really shocked, reasoning his surprise by explaining that I “was a good person.” When I decided to confide in him about my sexual orientation, he took that to mean that I was hitting on him. I have many wonderful memories from talking with him while walking around Stonebridge’s golf course.
It took him a long time to come to terms with the fact that there was nothing wrong with me being an atheist homosexual. He made me tag along with him to church for the longest time. I didn’t really have a reason to say no; he told me that he was lonely and needed a buddy. From my understanding he believed that these trips to church were good for me, too. He must have been hoping that listening to the preacher would somehow “save” me.
Eventually, I couldn’t take it anymore. One day the preacher started talking about how pagans and prostitutes are terrible people and I was visibly livid. Alex had obviously noticed because later he asked me what was wrong. I told him that it made me physically sick to be in a room full of the kind of people who would just eat that shit up. It made me feel anxious and alienated and it was just an uncomfortable experience each and every time I went.
He stopped taking me after that. He understood that what he was doing was more hurtful than it was helpful and never brought up my religious inclination or homosexuality in that sort of context ever again. The remainder of our time together was spent playing video games and dicking around Bossier / Shreveport until like 3 in the morning.
Haha, I really miss him. I hope remembers my address, otherwise he won’t be able to write me from basic training.
ANYWAYS
For all the devout smogonites whose religious inclinations breathe life into a God that would punish me for thinking dick is pretty awesome, condemn Princess Bubblegum for looking beautiful in a dress*, and cast into hell every other atheist in this thread because He has failed to provide them with compelling evidence of His existence, I ask you:
Why do you believe in God the way you do?**
A bit of clarity: this is not meant to question your faith. I respect your right to believe what you want and am not trying to sway you from your Lord’s path; just trying to sate my curiosity. None of the characteristics I have listed are meaningful determinants of someone’s moral compass. Even being religious does not automatically make you a good person. Why isn’t being a good person enough to get one into ‘Heaven’? Faith in God doesn’t actually matter until after you’re already dead, but being a good person has an impact on the world around you and the people in your life. So then, why is faith in God more important than being a good person?
*Everyone looks beautiful in a dress; Princess Bubblegum is obviously no exception.
**I have absolutely no idea if this is appropriate for this thread. Posters like mattj and Strange_Matter have been participating, so I figured why not. I’ll move it to the other religion thread if asked, though.
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This is probably as good a time as any to talk about why I am an atheist.
I began my subscription to atheism at a very young age, but religion wasn’t a particularly large facet of my life until I got older. In middle school I was absolutely unbearable, and could only be described as The poster-child for ‘those’ kinds of atheists. I was very aggressive with my beliefs, and had a tendency to shove it in people’s faces when the opportunity presented itself. It was pretty bad.
I mellowed out as I got older, though. Louisiana played a really big role in that, since my beliefs were constantly under siege and I was forced to recognize what about myself I saw in others and why I didn’t like it. My Grandmother moving in with us added to this, too. She pretty much indoctrinated the rest of my family by force. The transformation was pretty scary – religion had never been a large part of our household, and now everyone was going to church every Sunday, saying the rosary every night, and being asked to pray that Obama loses the election. Before that, it was usually limited to conversations about religion between me, my Mother, and my Father.
I remember a time when religion was actually brought up in class by one of my teachers. His argument essentially boiled down to “How do you think (religious) people feel knowing that someone they care about is going to hell?” I was so flabbergasted that I couldn’t respond. I wish I had though, I probably would have asked why I should give a fuck. Just as I choose to acknowledge that compelling evidence for the existence of God has yet to be discovered, the individuals he was referring to choose to believe that God would condemn me to hell for something so petty. The major difference between the two of those choices though, is that mine is reasonable and theirs is shitty and intrinsically harmful.
Experiences like that, and also the one’s I have described throughout this post, have really helped to shape my religious beliefs. Recently I have found myself fixated on the irrationality of it all. Not in the idea that God is real, but in the consequences of discovering compelling evidence of his existence, or if we could somehow prove that he was real.
This kind of ties back in with Jorgen’s hypothetical. If compelling evidence for the existence of God was discovered, nothing happening is one of the most realistic scenarios. Yeah, religious people get to rub it in the face of atheists everywhere, but so what? The evidence more than likely wouldn’t be strong enough to prove who has it right. Ergo, everyone goes back to arguing, disease / war / poverty still needs to be cured / avoided / eliminated, and life moves on. The only difference is that most atheists will probably adopt religious beliefs that mirror what I’ve been discussing while the hardcore ones retain their skepticism.
Of course, the alternative is like, the exact opposite of that. I imagine that this compelling evidence could potentially inspire radical religious factions to take action in the name of God. History has shown us that people have been willing to do horrible and irrational things in the name of something they couldn’t prove – I couldn’t begin to fathom what would happen if people actually had bona-fide scientific evidence with which to justify their actions.
Basically, in the event that compelling evidence for the existence of God is discovered, it’s probably safe to assume that either nothing significant will happen, or that a lot of horrible, terrible, awful shit will. In recognizing that, it’s kind of funny to me that some people feel compelled to try and prove the existence of God. I mean, not only is that really silly given that faith is kind of like
the defining characteristic of religion, but the world is probably better off not knowing for sure anyways.
None of that really explains why I am an atheist, though. To be perfectly honest, I initially adopted atheism when I was younger because my Mother told me that if I prayed hard enough, I would have a baby brother. Well, I got a little sister instead. I was eight years old (or younger) and I wasn’t rewarded doing what I was supposed to. So that kind of rattled the foundations for my faith. It didn’t help that church was also really fucking boring and I just didn’t have the attention span to listen to a preacher praise Jesus for an hour and a half.
As I got older, met a lot of people, and learned more about the world around me, I came to the conclusion that I just didn’t have any reason to believe. So I don’t.