didls
formerly Besom
I agree, but the Pokémon most hurt by the mechanic (Sneasel, Absol, Azumarill etc.) were created after the mechanic was introduced, not before.
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Unpopular opinions
- Thread starter antemortem
- Start date
Maybe, for once, Gamefreak knew they made a mistake?
Well yeah, that's what I'm arguing. The mechanic was fine in gen 1 because they only had to account for a limited number of full evo mons and moves. As soon as you introduce more and end up having to do variety to not just make the same pokemon again, your new ones start to suffer for it. It's a mechanic that fucks up in the long term.
It's also the reason so many hoenn mons are mixed attackers, trying to compensate for the dissonance of one type being physical and the other special, or wanting to make a special pokemon but still have it be able to use its physical stab and vice versa
I don't think the way they originally implemented the mechanic was a mistake honestly. It kind of makes sense for certain types to be considered more "elemental" and associated with one kind of attacking stat (Special) versus more "straight up" attacks being associated with the physical attacking stat. As a fan of the series for a while, I don't ever remember people clamoring for a Physical-Special split before Gen 4. I just think it's one of those "we didn't know we needed it until we got it" type of things. Kind of like Abilities. Both are very solid battle mechanic implementations on the part of GF.
The Special stat in Gen 1 on the other hand was a straight up mistake. The Special split in Gen 2 was GF fixing their own mistake. That's how I see the difference personally.
didls
formerly Besom
GF turned the physical/special split into a necessity by being dumb and making multiple Pokemon unable to use their STABs. It’s not really an issue of variety as much as it is an issue of “Why the fuck did you make a Dark/Ice type a physical attacker?” The mechanic isn’t the problem in this situation.
But heres the thing: does sneasel look like a special attacker? Does kingler? Absol? Mightyena? This either gives you a severe character design limitation, or you just let the pokemon suck.
Such a limitation strains creativity both in game and character design, and leads to repetition and overlapse. It's not feasible in the long run. The mechanic is at fault, not the pokemon
To be fair, it wasn't as simple as "Pokemon whose preferred attacking stat is the opposite of their STAB = Pokemon is bad". Pokemon like Gengar and Haunter were excellent despite not having any usable STAB, while Pokemon like Hitmonchan were bad despite having STAB.
When Gen 4 dropped, people immediately went "Wow, finally, this makes so much sense!" so at least on a subconscious level, everyone thought it was weird.
It's kind of "That thing you never knew you needed so much".
To say it bluntly, the reason for which people felt "weird" for the phys/special split is because by gen 4 release we didn't have the flock of internettians demanding that every single pokemon was viable, and people were perfectly fine with the fact that certain Pokes would be better than other.
Meanwhile, just a week or two ago someone on these boards was saying that the special split should never have happened because it made "all types boring with every type having viable attacks".
didls
formerly Besom
All of these Pokémon, minus Mightyena, look like they could feasibly have a SpAtk stat that is 80 or higher. Therefore, aside from Mightyena, they all look like special attackers.
As for Mightyena, it sucks ass regardless of whether or not the Physical/Special split exists just like most of the Pokémon that are severely affected by it.
If that someone you're referring to is me, then no, that's not even remotely what I said.
I'm glad there's a generation in the natures/512 EV mold that is pre-physical special split. I wouldn't want it all the time, and I do appreciate what we have now, but it isn't without its drawbacks. Between the physical special split and the new moves accompanying that change, all of the sudden between gen 3 and 4 it felt like a lot of pokemon went from having mediocre options to having some truly ridiculous ones. All of the dragon dancers got great STAB options in waterfall and outrage, even physical coverage in fang attacks. Special attackers got nasty plot, hidden power opening up, choice specs, etc.
There's something to be said for the stats themselves having more concrete meaning. Like a water type only needing special defense to shore up against its weaknesses. Or forcing pokemon to choose between being mixed attackers or not using their STABs. And I like the pace and bulkiness of ADV OU, owing in large part to this system.
For those asking what the contemporaries thought at the time, all I remember is me and my friends being confused over the question of how it worked. I'd have Blaze Kick and Flamethrower on the same set since I thought one might be considered physical, or be hesitant to teach Alakazam the elemental punches and spend my precious BP. When I figured it out, I wasn't like, mad that it didn't work that way. It ran counter to intuition, but I just cleaned up my sets and went on with my life. I did find it weird that Crunch and Shadow Ball lowered the wrong things though... Then when gen 4 hit I was happy to explore those possibilities. I had fun with both games and battle frontiers for many years since then.
There's something to be said for the stats themselves having more concrete meaning. Like a water type only needing special defense to shore up against its weaknesses. Or forcing pokemon to choose between being mixed attackers or not using their STABs. And I like the pace and bulkiness of ADV OU, owing in large part to this system.
For those asking what the contemporaries thought at the time, all I remember is me and my friends being confused over the question of how it worked. I'd have Blaze Kick and Flamethrower on the same set since I thought one might be considered physical, or be hesitant to teach Alakazam the elemental punches and spend my precious BP. When I figured it out, I wasn't like, mad that it didn't work that way. It ran counter to intuition, but I just cleaned up my sets and went on with my life. I did find it weird that Crunch and Shadow Ball lowered the wrong things though... Then when gen 4 hit I was happy to explore those possibilities. I had fun with both games and battle frontiers for many years since then.
Now that you remind me of it, it's... strange, to say the least, that Dragon Dance boosted Attack in Gen III, when it's obviously a move themed for Dragon-type Pokémon, which were special at that point.
In fact, Larvitar was the only Pokémon to be able to learn Dragon Dance without having a Special STAB, and alongside Gyarados the only one with more Attack than Special Attack.
And that ain't even true! LMAO
Come on man, Mightyena went from running calcs to figure out whether or not it should use Shadow Ball or STAB Crunch to using Crunch to its full potential *and* having good coverage with the Elemental Fangs.
That was nothing but justice at work!
(No, comp doesn't matter, no one gets past Pex anyway, stop bullying my doggo.
)Imagine...(No, comp doesn't matter, no one gets past Pex anyway, stop bullying my doggo.
didls
formerly Besom
Honestly, I like Absol but I never payed much attention to its stats aside from knowing it had extremely high Attack. I just now noticed it has 75 Special Attack, which is a perfectly usable offensive stat for Gen 3 standards. I had always assumed it must have had a horrible Special Attack stat, the way people talk.
After realizing this, there was absolutely no reason to give Sneasel such an abhorrent SpAtk stat, when it looks like it could have just as good of a SpAtk stat as Absol, if not better. If it at least had 65, its Dark and Ice STAB would be perfectly usable ingame.
On a related note, I hate when people use Gengar as a prime example of a Pokemon hurt by the lack of a Physical/Special split. Sure, competitively, it was hurt, and its Attack is too low to consider using its STABs. However, competitively, it is still one of the best Pokemon in Gen 3 even with special attacking sets lacking STAB. And ingame, Shadow Ball is perfectly usable and lands lots of KOs against super-effective targets. Hell, I’ve even used Shadow Ball on Psychic types to great effect.
After realizing this, there was absolutely no reason to give Sneasel such an abhorrent SpAtk stat, when it looks like it could have just as good of a SpAtk stat as Absol, if not better. If it at least had 65, its Dark and Ice STAB would be perfectly usable ingame.
On a related note, I hate when people use Gengar as a prime example of a Pokemon hurt by the lack of a Physical/Special split. Sure, competitively, it was hurt, and its Attack is too low to consider using its STABs. However, competitively, it is still one of the best Pokemon in Gen 3 even with special attacking sets lacking STAB. And ingame, Shadow Ball is perfectly usable and lands lots of KOs against super-effective targets. Hell, I’ve even used Shadow Ball on Psychic types to great effect.
Even Haunter is freaking S tier most in game runs for pre split. And even post
the coverage is too strong
Gen 3 imo has some of the best move animations in the entire series. No game before it, and no game after, has ever managed to match the epicness and rawness of Gen 3's move animations. The DS games, for as much as I love them, had move animations and sound effects that, while effective, were no where near as good as Gen 3's. Same applies to the 3DS games for that matter.
The move animations are simple but get the moves across well enough. But what further sells them is the amazing sound effects. Gen 3 only runs on a few sound effects, really, but on those few sound effects alone they really made many moves' animations that much more memorable. The animations are quick and simple, moreso than any generation before or after, and more than anything the sound effects add a whole layer of power to the moves. Even if the move itself isn't strong, the animation+sound effect combination makes them feel powerful in a way that no other game has ever done since. Like with Thunder. My god, you can tell how strong that move is seeing those massive thunderbolts drop down with POWER and oomph. Or Hydro Pump.
Here's just about every animation from Gen 3:
So many good ones here. Even weak moves like Arm Thrust still have a lot of oomph to them because of the amazingly simple yet clean animation and sound effects they made here. It's simple, and runs off of a small set of sound effects, but the animations all work so damn well.
I can only imagine how awesome Close Combat, Focus Blast, Stone Edge, Hurricane, Play Rough, etc. would look in a Gen 3 aesthetic. Super simple, yet super clean animations and sound effects and Gen 3 really made a lot of moves have a ton of oomph to them, and no game since has ever succeeded in achieving the awesomeness that Gen 3's moves really had.
The move animations are simple but get the moves across well enough. But what further sells them is the amazing sound effects. Gen 3 only runs on a few sound effects, really, but on those few sound effects alone they really made many moves' animations that much more memorable. The animations are quick and simple, moreso than any generation before or after, and more than anything the sound effects add a whole layer of power to the moves. Even if the move itself isn't strong, the animation+sound effect combination makes them feel powerful in a way that no other game has ever done since. Like with Thunder. My god, you can tell how strong that move is seeing those massive thunderbolts drop down with POWER and oomph. Or Hydro Pump.
Here's just about every animation from Gen 3:
So many good ones here. Even weak moves like Arm Thrust still have a lot of oomph to them because of the amazingly simple yet clean animation and sound effects they made here. It's simple, and runs off of a small set of sound effects, but the animations all work so damn well.
I can only imagine how awesome Close Combat, Focus Blast, Stone Edge, Hurricane, Play Rough, etc. would look in a Gen 3 aesthetic. Super simple, yet super clean animations and sound effects and Gen 3 really made a lot of moves have a ton of oomph to them, and no game since has ever succeeded in achieving the awesomeness that Gen 3's moves really had.
For that matter, the super effective sound of Gen 3 is my favourite in the series.
Fax
I also like Gen 3s shading the most out of sprite games, though palettes and sprite shape ruin it
The only move that I'd say looks and sounds very underpowered is Hyper Beam. From the quick flashing lights, loud SE and trembling screen in Gen 2 to...DNA?
DNA is most likely cuz it was meant to be Deoxy's signature
...but then it wasn't. Especially when Ray used it in the movie
Regardless, I tweaked the anim script....