Rejected we should allow users to trademark teams

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elodin

the burger
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hey all,

it's been a long time since smogon tournaments have been plagued with an excessive amount of focus on "prep", which is, in my opinion, not a very adequate form of measuring skill. i think this is fairly obvious when we take into account things like the mazar or bloo incidents of yore. the amount of influence that comes with knowing what your opponents are gonna bring is so powerful that those players were able to single-handedly win a team tournament on their own and reach the finals of the most prestigious tournament on the site, respectively.

when we take this into account, there is really only one aspect of what those players did that really differentiates their actions from what regular "prep" is: certainty. being certain of what your opponent is bringing puts you in an extremely advantageous position before the game even starts. that's why we so harshly punished actions like the ones practiced by those two players, but also leaks before the match happens, otherwise you could end up with egregious results that are clearly not a measurament of skill whatsoever. for example, if we had a finals match between abr vs niko and people were allowed to place bets on who's gonna win under regular circumstances, abr would probably be the favourite to win by a 100% margin. if we added the hypothesis of niko knowing all of abr's sets before their match, that bet would probably drop to like an 84% in favor of abr, which just goes to show the power of knowing your opponents' teams before a match happens.

so what i'd like to put into question is this: does this individual element or certainty really hold that much of a difference compared to regular "prep" to a point where we permaban users who obtain those unfair advantages by knowing their opponents' teams but do nothing about the regular tournament playerbase who simply preps as part of the "skill" in the game?

i think we can draw a pretty easy parallel here. if a user wants to play a tournament on smogon nowadays he needs to invest enormous amounts of time, aside from the time involved in scheduling and actually playing the match, just to break even. if you're facing an opponent who has prepped over 10 hours just to face you, knows all your teams by heart and knows what moves you're likely going to click on sucker punch 50/50s... are you really playing an even game? is your skill really determined by losing because you didn't use a scouting tool and became aware of every single set on the teams your opponent is bringing?

back in my day we had the most skillful and successful players reuse their teams constantly throughout the same run. themselves and their opponents simply could not know what each one was bringing into a match, so sticking to what they were good at was a much more solid strategy. and even if you did recognize their teams, you wouldn't have had numerous amounts of tools to break down each set and prevent you from being caught off-guard during a match. the amount of skill that takes making reads under this scenario is truly where the most beautiful part of the game resides.

with all that said, i think we as a collective should look into finding ways of at least "nerfing" the power of "prep" in some way. and even though locking teams during signups (like it's done in vgc formats) is a good idea in itself, there is still the underlying problem that your opponents are still gonna be able to look into all your replays and figure out exactly what each pokémon on your team does.

i think the ideal way to tackle this issue would be introducing a system of trademarking teams. if you are the first player to bring a combination of 6 pokémon to an official match, you should be able to trademark this team for yourself and no one else should be able to use it, up to a limit of around 5 teams per player. if another player brought your trademarked team to an official match, they'd be officially eliminated from the tournament they brought it in and also infracted.

even though this solution seems harsh, it actually comes with a lot of benefits. firstly, this would even the playing field immensely, because now everyone would be limited to bringing their trademarked teams to competitive matches, meaning "prep" would be much more accessible to players with less time investment to put into this skill-less aspect of the game, while also not completely killing it to the "prep" abusers. secondly, you would also not have to worry about random players stealing your intellectual property anymore, which is a huge plus for avid teambuilders like ojama, eternal spirit, omari p, and all the germans. thirdly, we would be able to track more efficiently the skill of each individual player per match.

i'll say it again, i know this seems drastic at first glance, but the more i think about the more i feel like this is the proper way of bringing our tournaments back to their glory days, so i felt like it was my duty to at least spark the debate.
 

MANNAT

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I seriously hope that this is a joke post because this is genuinely one of the worst ideas I've ever seen in a policy review thread. Why is playing skill more important than prepping skill to the point that we need to "nerf" prep? Let's use our brains people...

NOT TO MENTION TRADEMARKING TEAMS LITERALLY DOESNT MAKE PREP EASIER PEOPLE CAN STILL CTEAM
 
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hayedenn

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Okay, I read your post and understand what you're trying to say here but your idea of trademarking teams is inherently contradictory. Part of what makes Smogon amazing in the competitive mons sphere is how many formats there are, there are hundreds at this point, maybe even over a thousand including OMs/Pet Mods/multiple generations. It takes a lot of effort to become good at a tier; not just being able to click well but also build for it and understand the nuances and intricacies of why certain mon combinations work together and what goes into making a good team.

I have a good amount of friends across multiple gens and tiers and I often go to these people to ask for teams when I want to try a new format, whether in a tour or on the ladder. The fact that I would be forced to make my own teams for each format is absolutely insane. Would I have to get permission from every single person who has built every team I want to use in a format before using it? If a person builds a team and then goes inactive with no way to contact them is that team now unusable? What about metas that are highly centarlized, why should one person be able to claim the best combination of mons merely because they came up with it first? What if someone takes a team and improves the sets to where the team is no longer the same, but the combination of mons is? What if I take a team and change one mon on it, is it now considered mine?

I can understand the idea that sometimes it can be frustrating when your opponent is 1000x more a tryhard than you, sure. However, teams at this point of Smogon history, especially with team tours, are so often built by multiple people. Who gets to trademark a team when I built the first four mons and then I pass it to someone else who adds two more, then I pass it to my player for a tour who changes a couple sets and maybe swaps a mon? It's a ridiculous idea, there's no clear way to delineate intellectual property. Not only is it impossible to put into practice, but it also clearly stifles the idea that we are here to play mons by punishing those who want to try new tiers but have no building ability yet.

If you want to discuss team locking for tours, that is actually something that MAY be interesting, but I largely think a lot of the enjoyment in playing tours is taking teams and refining them over time, editing them specifically for your opponent, etc.

Edit: also this idea that people super mega tryhard instead of oftentimes taking pre-existing teams and changing the sets slightly to cteam specific people is crazy; I've seen much more of the latter than the former in competitive tours.
 
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BeeOrSomething

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If anything, this so called "prep nerf" does the exact opposite and just buffs it a lot. If you know your opponent is the only player allowed to bring these 5 sets of teams, would it not be easy to just attempt to build a counter team to those 5?

Another issue: how far does trademarking go? Does it come down to every exact set and EV arrangement, or is it only just that list of 6 pokemon? Both are incredibly flawed. Trademarking down to the minute details is basically not trademarking at all, because anybody can just slightly alter movesets or EVs and still have basically the same team. Trademarking just the composition is also frankly ridiculous and just reduces diversity too much, especially in earlier gens where there are less viable options.

Who even gets access to trademarking? Like, yeah sure ABR would get the famous ABR sand in BW of course, but what if some random person just brings this lineup of 6 pokemon that haven't been paired in exactly that way before? Do they suddenly get completely exclusive rights?

The only other issue I have is the absurd and unnecessary mind gaming it leads to - both players know that one of them will have these 5 or so trademarked teams and they can just not use them at all, and hell they might not have even used these teams much in the first place, and at that point, what's even the point of trademarking them?

Last thing - is the point of competitive pokemon not to be competitive? If anything, extensive prep should be rewarded - time and effort should grant results.

Edit: Oh also, how the fuck is there going to be any kind of royalty system? Nobody is gonna pay fucking money just to use one specific team in a god damn pokemon game, and anything else is gonna be completely worthless.

Edit 2: Lmfao at the part where people can only bring their trademarked teams, dude there aren't enough good pokemon in each tier for every player to have their own set of 5 unique team comps, this will never work
 
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TyCarter

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Reposting cuz apparently my last post was too shitposty and was deleted.

This idea would be fucking horrible in tiers like RBY and GSC OU or really in tiers that are extremely centralized. For as funny as trademarking some shit like Yveltal-Etern-NDM cores in SS Ubers would be, this can't really work. Even in tiers that aren't as centralized this would still be more asscheeks than Dillon Brooks in the playoffs. Prepping is a part of the game even if "prep culture" can suck at times.

As others have brought up, how fucking far does this go? Down to EVs, Natures, moves?

Yeah dawg lemme see GSC Lax-Zap-Cloy teams get trademarked, cuz that shit would be funny.

edit: you know what? fuck it, why not LOL. I wanna see this site implode.
 
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Da Pizza Man

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lmao no

Analyzing your opponent's strategy and making a plan to counteract it is an extremely important skill in pretty much any game/sport, so much so that there are entire career paths in the sports industry dedicated to doing just that. "Prep" is just as much of a factor into a player's skill as to their actual performance in the game, we shoudln't be downplaying it.

Also, TyCarter kinda already said this, but this would cause irrepairable damage to heavily centralized tiers like RBY OU, GSC OU, and SS Ubers.
 

awyp

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I think the intention is good, the execution is like a 1/10. I do believe locking into teams outside of current tier bans during big tournaments could be something that we can explore further (something that's been done in past tours), I agree there's a lot more prep then there was 10 years ago which is an interesting for someone like me since I've been playing since 2008 but to be honest it's just part of the game / community evolving and there isn't much we can do about it but adjust. I don't think prepping is necessarily bad at all, it just can be nuisance if someone plays a certain playstyle and you know how to counter it via stall / HO or whatever (doesn't necessarily work all the time).

Trademarking is a bit much because depending on what tier / generation you're playing there's only like 20 viable mons maybe even less so it starts becoming ridiculous.
 
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