Other Tiers What if a Ho-Oh+Celebi Suspect happened?

[Plague von Karma]

I noticed some people were bringing this up earlier (that and me and some friends discussed it before), and thought I'd make a thread for it. So it's widely considered that Ho-Oh and Celebi are surprisingly balanced in Gen 2 OU. Both have plenty of answers in the meta with enough weaknesses for Offensive Teams to take advantage of.

So what if either of these were brought back?

Ho-Oh would likely increase the usage of Pokemon such as Rhydon, since it would just be something else it can counter (along with Zapdos, Raikou, etc). It would have to fear a Giga Drain, though. But then, Machamp could take it down with a Rock Slide since Ho-Oh lacks any real Flying STAB. Machamp would probably become a great threat due to this, and the fact it removes Snorlax quite easily as well. Starmie can also take pretty much anything Ho-Oh can throw at it and respond with a Thunderbolt to the face. I'm not really sure about whether Zapdos or Raikou can overpower it (I haven't done calcs on them, I really should), but they're definitely checks at worst. Given Moltres isn't used that often, would Ho-Oh really be any different? Hell, Moltres deals more damage than Ho-Oh due to higher SpA, and Sacred Fire still has 100 Base Power. Ho-Oh is bulkier with the Burns and Recover considered, but it means nothing when it can be countered in pretty much the same way. This isn't to say Ho-Oh wouldn't be terrible though - it's quite the contrary. Ho-Oh will really hamper fans of Heracross, being able to either kill it or leave it with a Burn before ousting it on the next go. Skarmory and Forretress would definitely fear it as well, not wanting to be fried. Tyranitar, while it can OHKO with Rock Slide, would also have to fear a Giga Drain like Rhydon.

Celebi is a bit more debatable. It doesn't get Substitute so it can't SubSeed, and has a plethora of weaknesses. However, it does have useful resistances to Electric, Ground and Water, which are all popular attacking types. Plus, it is pretty good against Snorlax when it hasn't boosted to high heaven. It doesn't really...do anything offensively, though. It can't fight Skarmory at all bar Leech Seeding it and hoping it doesn't get Drill Peck'd to death. HP Bug Forretress could also punch through it, and we don't even see that too often these days. It can't really deal with ol' Missy either. I don't doubt its ability to be successful though, as Heal Bell would support stall teams really well. A definite alternative to Miltank in that respect. There's also the fact Nidoking would have to fear a Psychic when it tries to punch through it with its various coverage options, although it'll also have to fear a Lovely Kiss back.

Given Gen 4 OU has that Latias Suspect Test, wouldn't it be fun to play around with Gen 2 a bit? We've seen the tourneys quite a few times, why not see how this goes?

 

[xJoelituh]

Okay, first of all: Let's not fuck around with an already perfect Metagame. GSC OU is as balanced as it can be and Snorlax centralization isn't really a problem.

Now with that out of the way, I hope this is just some theorycrafting since we had some ladder play a few months back with those two being around and we did some tournaments with them (Or just one) on the RoA room. But still, that mostly isn't as likely as any high level games from the past few years.

Ho-oh

About Ho-oh, this thing just doesn't die unless someone booms on it or hits two thunder in a row, and the first one could be just negated by burns with Sacred Fire or with Curse up. Neither it helps that two of the most common phazers are weak to it (Skarmory and Steelix). Obviously, stall teams could make you run out of Sacred Fire if you're using that, but offense has a really difficult time to switch in to Ho-oh since the defensive core usually has dislikes burns/are annoyed by its coverage. And burning some threats could force them to rest and allow other Pokémon to setup and clean up. It could even use some niche sets to get rid of some its checks even easier. (Like maybe run HP Water/Ice for Rhydon). Boom mons threatens Ho-oh though the only one that Ko's from full is Snorlax otherwise it's mostly a roll which could force if it Recovers with its 90 base speed, which is pretty high for GSC standards.
Its sets won't change much from the ones already used, to be fair, maybe add some restalker to spam Sacred Fire / EQ / Thunder(bolt).
I don't think this Pokemon should be considered since it will shift the metagame to a more unhealthy one (Stall to deal with Offensive Ho-Oh, Curse Ho-oh for overall goodness with boom offense which could help against the stall matchup, and Offensive Ho-oh to deal with Offense lol).

Celebi

By far, the best Heal bell user of the generation. Even though it doesn't have much competition, specially since the other two viable users are way better in stall. Celebi gives an option to Offense / Balance teams to run a really good support Pokémon without losing much momentum. Its leech seeds are huge since most Pokemon here have high HP values (Snorlax, anyone?), It also gets Perish Song which you could use along side some Mean Look BP shenanigans and just get free kills. Since it mostly doesn't have a slot to run Grass Stab(Either HP Grass or Giga drain, since both are ass and don't really hit anything), Tyranitar checks Celebi quite good, although it could be worn down with Spikes + Seeds. Forretress is probably the closest to a counter to this monster since Rapid Spin gets rid of Seeds and it can't do much back to it and HP Bug is a 2HKO. But even then, spamming Seeds is hell of annoying and that adding that it gets stuff like Baton pass to gain momentum, or Perish song to stop some Curse users.
We can easily compare Celebi with its closest cousin in Meganium when it comes to annoyance with the Seeds Momentum, and most of the time it ends getting stall out of PP or receving some boom. But having a better recovery in Recover and Heal bell for helping the team even more.
The lack of Substitute really hurts, since this could help Celebi to deal with boomers and Forretress, but then again this makes it not insanely broken.
About metagame shift, people may start running more offense with Rest + Heal bell Support and stall just has some new toy if it doesn't want to use Blissey/Miltank(Although using Celebi instead of Miltank would mean losing a Lax check which isn't an easy thing to do).
Gonna drop some sets too, which could work in this kinda metagame.

Again all, those are most theorycrafting since I didn't really play this when it was available and GSC isn't really my main gen but I can defend myself on it.

 

[Plague von Karma]

Okay, first of all: Let's not fuck around with an already perfect Metagame. GSC OU is as balanced as it can be and Snorlax centralization isn't really a problem.

Now with that out of the way, I hope this is just some theorycrafting since we had some ladder play a few months back with those two being around and we did some tournaments with them (Or just one) on the RoA room. But still, that mostly isn't as likely as any high level games from the past few years.

Ho-oh

About Ho-oh, this thing just doesn't die unless someone booms on it or hits two thunder in a row, and the first one could be just negated by burns with Sacred Fire or with Curse up. Neither it helps that two of the most common phazers are weak to it (Skarmory and Steelix). Obviously, stall teams could make you run out of Sacred Fire if you're using that, but offense has a really difficult time to switch in to Ho-oh since the defensive core usually has dislikes burns/are annoyed by its coverage. And burning some threats could force them to rest and allow other Pokémon to setup and clean up. It could even use some niche sets to get rid of some its checks even easier. (Like maybe run HP Water/Ice for Rhydon). Boom mons threatens Ho-oh though the only one that Ko's from full is Snorlax otherwise it's mostly a roll which could force if it Recovers with its 90 base speed, which is pretty high for GSC standards.
Its sets won't change much from the ones already used, to be fair, maybe add some restalker to spam Sacred Fire / EQ / Thunder(bolt).
I don't think this Pokemon should be considered since it will shift the metagame to a more unhealthy one (Stall to deal with Offensive Ho-Oh, Curse Ho-oh for overall goodness with boom offense which could help against the stall matchup, and Offensive Ho-oh to deal with Offense lol).

Celebi

By far, the best Heal bell user of the generation. Even though it doesn't have much competition, specially since the other two viable users are way better in stall. Celebi gives an option to Offense / Balance teams to run a really good support Pokémon without losing much momentum. Its leech seeds are huge since most Pokemon here have high HP values (Snorlax, anyone?), It also gets Perish Song which you could use along side some Mean Look BP shenanigans and just get free kills. Since it mostly doesn't have a slot to run Grass Stab(Either HP Grass or Giga drain, since both are ass and don't really hit anything), Tyranitar checks Celebi quite good, although it could be worn down with Spikes + Seeds. Forretress is probably the closest to a counter to this monster since Rapid Spin gets rid of Seeds and it can't do much back to it and HP Bug is a 2HKO. But even then, spamming Seeds is hell of annoying and that adding that it gets stuff like Baton pass to gain momentum, or Perish song to stop some Curse users.
We can easily compare Celebi with its closest cousin in Meganium when it comes to annoyance with the Seeds Momentum, and most of the time it ends getting stall out of PP or receiving some boom. But having a better recovery in Recover and Heal bell for helping the team even more.
The lack of Substitute really hurts, since this could help Celebi to deal with boomers and Forretress, but then again this makes it not insanely broken.
About metagame shift, people may start running more offense with Rest + Heal bell Support and stall just has some new toy if it doesn't want to use Blissey/Miltank(Although using Celebi instead of Miltank would mean losing a Lax check which isn't an easy thing to do).
Gonna drop some sets too, which could work in this kinda metagame.

Again all, those are most theorycrafting since I didn't really play this when it was available and GSC isn't really my main gen but I can defend myself on it.

I never really mentioned anything about Snorlax being a problem, not sure where you got that from.

Yeah, Ho-Oh would be difficult to kill if you don't carry something for it. I see what you mean there, it IS really stupid when it gets the momentum off. SpD means after Cursing it has to be phased there and then. It's definitely a Pokemon that would be up there in stall teams with Blissey and Skarmory. However, it requires its counters to be removed (boomerposting anyone?) before it can come in and press the win button. There are definitely outs to it already in the meta, about as many as you'd have normally. It also doesn't have many moves to abuse with Curse bar Return and Earthquake. Maybe you could run a Hidden Power, but then you have to remove Return which is a good, stable attack. Even then, Skarmory will wall Ho-Oh in this scenario because you don't have Sacred Fire or Thunderbolt. Once it's got a Curse boost or two off, Rhydon can come in and deal a huge chunk since by this point you know Giga Drain won't be there. Earthquake? Possibly. Curse Ho-Oh would definitely have outs. Special Ho-Oh is simply something else for Blissey to deal with, although I will say that Earthquake is something to worry about. Rhydon, once again, can deal with it to a degree, possibly moreso since it isn't hitting Rhydon with a Curse-boosted Earthquake. I'm pretty sure Snorlax could go toe to toe with the Special Set as well. Tyranitar can healthily deal with Ho-Oh in most sets as well. Marowak can completely oust it out of existence regardless of set, and I didn't even mention it earlier.

I think Ho-Oh is something that would have to be tested in the long term, since as I've heard it's either broken or mediocre. It really depends on how the meta responds and develops.

I don't think Celebi would really be that bad though, since it doesn't have many ways to prevent itself from simply being killed. It's incredible support and all, definitely high tier, but not something that would be centralizing like Snorlax. The lack of good STAB and Substitute make it...well, not anything that's going to be busted. I seriously don't know why it's Uber at all bar the potential for abuse with Missy. Heracross would just end its life without a second thought, but that's obvious.

EDIT: I still need to learn how to proofread, good lord why am I like this

 

[badabing]

seems kinda silly to unban hoho without his stallier brother lugia

 

[Plague von Karma]

seems kinda silly to unban hoho without his stallier brother lugia

Nah, Ho-Oh is feasible since it can be dispatched early on. Lugia has a much better defensive typing and can live for an eternity. Ho-Oh can't necessarily do that and has to be on the offense. I don't think Lugia even has any counters in OU unlike Ho-Oh.

 

[FriendOfMrGolem120]

The tier has been on PS as a ROA spotlight ladder for a month. I ended up topping it with a 45-1 record (you can check with /rank FOMG, gen2ouhoohcelebi on the PS server). Enough bragging now, I just wanted to point out that I actually have some experience with the tier but I won't claim that I understand it perfectly since the competition on these ladders is usually not that strong (with a few exceptions of course).

Ho-Oh would likely increase the usage of Pokemon such as Rhydon

I agree, Rhydon gets a lot better in this metagame. I used Earthquake, Rock Slide, HpBug and Curse most of the time.

It would have to fear a Giga Drain

I don't think Giga Drain is good on Hooh. Ho-Oh Earthquake vs. Rhydon: 154-182 (37.2 - 44%) does already enough to prevent Rhydon from switching in carelessly (and can also 2HKO Raikou at the same time). If Rhydon is not paired with a Heal Bell user it additionally needs to worry about the 50% burn chance of Sacred Fire as well unless you run Rest.

Starmie can also take pretty much anything Ho-Oh can throw at it and respond with a Thunderbolt to the face

I think you meant "Hooh can also take pretty much anything Starmie can throw at it and respond with a Thunderbolt to the face".
Starmie Surf vs. Ho-Oh: 153-180 (36.8 - 43.3%) -- 99.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Starmie Thunderbolt vs. Ho-Oh: 102-120 (24.5 - 28.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
Ho-Oh Thunderbolt vs. Starmie: 163-192 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- 82.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Ho-Oh Thunder vs. Starmie: 204-240 (63.1 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Given Moltres isn't used that often, would Ho-Oh really be any different?

Yes. Moltres is used as a Sunny Day sweeper and pretty much hardwalled by Suicune and Vaporeon.
Charcoal Moltres Fire Blast vs. Vaporeon in Sun: 128-151 (27.6 - 32.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Moltres Hidden Power Grass vs. Vaporeon: 124-146 (26.7 - 31.5%) -- 27.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Moltres Hidden Power Grass vs. Suicune: 108-128 (26.7 - 31.7%) -- 29.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Ho-Oh Thunder vs. Vaporeon: 190-224 (41 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Ho-Oh Thunder vs. Suicune: 168-198 (41.6 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Tyranitar, while it can OHKO with Rock Slide, would also have to fear a Giga Drain

Ho-Oh Giga Drain vs. Tyranitar: 93-110 (23 - 27.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
Giga Drain is not a threat against Tyranitar. Earthquake or a Sacred Fire burn is.

Now to my own thoughts about this tier: It was fun to play it as a spotlight ladder but it seemed much less diverse than regular OU. Many offensive teams need to worry about burns from Hooh. Combine that with the addition of another strong defensive Heal Bell user and you can easily see why the metagame favors stallier teams more. Both added mons are extremely bulky and hard to take down. Some pokemon like Nidoking are less viable because they can't do enough damage to the new common threats. Granted, other mons actually benefit from the addition. I haven't used it myself but think that Houndoom could be more viable. Celebi could make use of Baton Pass to prevent Pursuit trapping however.

TL;DR Similarly to gen2ou without Snorlax I don't mind this being a spotlight ladder again but I don't want it to become the main OU tier.

Let's not fuck around with an already perfect Metagame.

I can't say it better.

 

[Earthworm]

First things first, this kind of change is not ever going to happen to the OU meta if I can do anything about it. I have played the Ho-Oh Celebi meta on numerous occasions and the presence of these very tanky Pokemon with basically infinite recovery does not improve on OU in my opinion. That said, Ubers is an interesting metagame if one has an open mind towards things like PP stalling as a viable and reasonable strategy.

Second, I think you (Chippy2001) should think about the way you determine what beats what a little more. Sure, Marowak can come in on a Thunderbolt from Ho-Oh and then the Ho-Oh user can click Recover the next turn and get OHKOed by Rock Slide. Next time the Ho-Oh user will remember they died to Rock Slide and switch out or go for a Sacred Fire burn. A Pokemon's usefulness in doing something in general is strongly linked to its ability to get on the field without being significantly crippled and then perform its role. To be good against Ho-Oh, you need to be able to tank Sacred Fire and get burned and still be okay. This usually means taking less than 37% damage and having Rest and/or Heal Bell and/or Sleep Talk in most cases. You also need to be able to take Earthquake and Thunder, and maybe Toxic or HP Rock if those end up popular. This can probably be done on Rhydon/Tyranitar if they are running Rest in fairness, but Ho-Oh can potentially get past them with Earthquake while they are burned/asleep.

The overall influence of these Pokemon would be to increase the defensiveness of teams. I'd expect the average game length to be quite a bit longer, which I don't find to be desirable. I think it's best to keep the OU meta as it is. If you want to use these Pokemon, I would suggest playing GSC Ubers, which is OU + these two + three others. Snorlax is generally considered the second-best Pokemon even with the other Ubers.