Move Z-Move Discussion

[GoodGame1324]

Azumarill @ Normalium Z
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 164 HP / 252 Atk / 92 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Splash
- Play Rough
- Aqua Jet
- Knock Off

Splash is pretty good, and that +3 attack as a Z-move is no joke. So basically this is similar to azumaril's standard BD set, except it trades in power for bulk. Though +3 isn't as nearly as insane as +6, it is still good enough to OHKO many offensive pokemon with aqua jet, and you don't jeopardize your bulk. This set fares better against offensive teams, while BD is for more defensive team.

OG creator (Mew) @ Mewnium Z
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Fire Blast
- Aura Sphere
- Rock Polish

Believe it or not, I have great sucess with this on spikes stacking hyper offense teams. Mew's Z move, genesis supernova is a 185 base power move that creates a psychic terrain, which is a 1 time nuke while it also boosts Mew's STAB psychic AND also protects it from priority, so you don't need to fear getting revenge killed, effectively allowing you to take any hit while setting up as long as it doesn't OHKO. Additionally, the surprise factor comes from this set, as most Mew are support or stallbreakers, so many of Mew's checks for those variants aren't expecting to get smacked by an aura sphere or psychic. Fire blast roasts the steels that try to wall it, like mega scizor. The only weakness of this set is that it gets walled by psychics, but that can be easily remedied with pursuit support. Additionally, you waste your Z-move if your opponent switches in a dark type while u use it, but who would actually see this coming?

 

[Jaroda]

Pair Tapu Koko with Porygon-Z and have him hold the item boosting turns of Electric Terrain, and Volt Switch him in. Porygon-Z can have +1 Adaptability Electric Terrain STAB Thunderbolt... on top of +1 Ice Beam coverage off that insane 135 SpA. Recover in your last slot can be pretty beastly. This pairing is no joke. You think Tapu Koko hits hard?

+1 252 SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Mew in Electric Terrain: 336-396 (83.1 - 98%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Porygon-Z Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 342-404 (81.4 - 96.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ SpA Porygon-Z Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 382-450 (94.5 - 111.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Electric Terrain: 256-302 (39.8 - 47%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

This thing ain't effing around.

 

[Jukain]

http://pastebin.com/WSJFzhC9

not really here to comment about z-moves, but I've shown this to some people and figured I'd post it...I made a reference chart for myself that contains most of the z-move base powers of relevant moves. just a resource if you don't want to sift through the larger datamine base power list to find the bp of a certain move. it includes the signature moves and is organized by type->base power.

 

[STEELDRAGON]

Speaking of Z-moves yesterday I swept a whole team with Hoopa-U with Z-Snatch which basically is Snatch and Agility combined. They tried to set up a SS with Minior and I snatched it and ran through the rest of their team.

 

[Josh]

Do Z moves still have the same accuracy as the original moves, or do they go up to 100%? If it's the latter, Fightnium-Z Tapu Lele seems like it could work, the raw power enabling you to KO Skarmory at +1 after SR. CM Tapu Lele doesn't really know whether it wants to run Leftovers or LO, and both have their downsides, so this could be a good compromise. Same applies to Torandus-T actually, being able to fire off a really powerful and accurate Flying move seems amazing for it.

At the moment, I really only see 2 really good Z-move users in OU. The first is obviously Manaphy, which uses Z moves perfecly. The second would be Landorus-T, which can use Groundnium-Z like it uses Earth Plate: firing off an extremely powerful ground move to heavily dent switchins like Ferrothorn, Amoonguss, and most importantly, Sableye. I guess Garchomp falls under that mantle too, but it'd usually prefer LO or Lum. Pretty much anything else is better off with a Choice item.

Really, the necessary requirements for a Z move are a) a reason you'd want to fire off an extremely powerful hit, b) a reason you'd want to switch moves and c) a reason you wouldn't want to run a Life Orb. Manaphy and Lando-T have all 3, not sure if much else does. A good rule of thunb is anything that sometimes uses a Plate or a Lum berry could be a good Z-move user. So Dragonium Z Dragonite, Waterium or Flyinium Z Gyarados, Firium Z Volcarona, maybe even Fightnium Z Breloom or Waternium Z Azumarill could see use. But I honestly doubt any of these will really be relevant. Right now, it's safe to assume that Z moves basically belong to Manaphy.

Agree in general. However, it could probably be simplified to Z-moves are good on things that don't particularly need items. Lando and Mana don't need an item, so while helmet (or whatever set you are) and lefties respectively are definitely helpful, they aren't essential which is a big reason why these two are good z move users. So while wallbreakers such as Hoopa that rely on specs/band to break cores can never really afford Z-moves, as you mentioned almost everything that carries lum can. And there are a couple life orb users that may be able to effectively run Z-moves: Latios is a good example because it hates getting worn down (burn nerf helps it with keld) so it could be worth it to get one super powerful Draco and not need to worry about being worn down by yourself. It also means sableye and hippo for example will (probably - i haven't calced) drop and not be able to heal off the damage which is cool. New Soul Dew might be the best item though, especially if it can't be knocked like the gen 4 orbs.

 

[dhelmise]

Do Z moves still have the same accuracy as the original moves, or do they go up to 100%? If it's the latter, Fightnium-Z Tapu Lele seems like it could work, the raw power enabling you to KO Skarmory at +1 after SR. CM Tapu Lele doesn't really know whether it wants to run Leftovers or LO, and both have their downsides, so this could be a good compromise. Same applies to Torandus-T actually, being able to fire off a really powerful and accurate Flying move seems amazing for it.

At the moment, I really only see 2 really good Z-move users in OU. The first is obviously Manaphy, which uses Z moves perfecly. The second would be Landorus-T, which can use Groundnium-Z like it uses Earth Plate: firing off an extremely powerful ground move to heavily dent switchins like Ferrothorn, Amoonguss, and most importantly, Sableye. I guess Garchomp falls under that mantle too, but it'd usually prefer LO or Lum. Pretty much anything else is better off with a Choice item.

Really, the necessary requirements for a Z move are a) a reason you'd want to fire off an extremely powerful hit, b) a reason you'd want to switch moves and c) a reason you wouldn't want to run a Life Orb. Manaphy and Lando-T have all 3, not sure if much else does. A good rule of thunb is anything that sometimes uses a Plate or a Lum berry could be a good Z-move user. So Dragonium Z Dragonite, Waterium or Flyinium Z Gyarados, Firium Z Volcarona, maybe even Fightnium Z Breloom or Waternium Z Azumarill could see use. But I honestly doubt any of these will really be relevant. Right now, it's safe to assume that Z moves basically belong to Manaphy.

Z-moves never miss, which makes them even better for obvious reasons.

 

[NDenizen]

The stat boost components are really fun, makes for some nice ideas (some more effective than others, and most likely confined to lower tiers, if it all)

Z-Hypnosis/Grasswhistle/Lovely Kiss/Sleep Powder on lots of Pokemon. Getting a guaranteed speed boost is just what some pokemon can use, and with the potential added benefit of getting the sleep off it makes the move feel far less wasteful.
Z-Snatch seems genuinely like it could see some real usage, as the potential reward is massive if you steal something good - if you don't, you still get a free Agility and people still cannot afford to boost in your face.
Z-Flash Swoobat gets a free Minimise, and reduced accuracy on the opponent. Pretty useless but the most I could muster in terms of combining Simple and Z-moves.
Ghourgheist can turn an opponent into a ghost type with Z-Trick or Treat, boosting all its stats by 1 and then getting STAB on the opponent if it doesn't switch it. It's not quite on the level of Conversion, but it is a fun idea.
Z-Parting Shot on Sylvally and Pancham basically gives you a free heal on an ally, likely forcing the opponent to switch.
Z-Destiny Bond in Doubles is trolltastic.
Z-Heal Block Thundurus has the potential to be an unusual Stall Breaker, though Nasty Plot is probably better.
Z-Psycho Shift could have some potential on Alakazam, Latias, Togekiss, though it's not like these pokemon have issues boosting their special attack.
Z-Tailwind on Beedrill or Fearow also boosts crit chance, and these guys have Sniper - gimmicky, but not too bad. Drapion also has Z-Acupressure and more moves to abuse crit chance.

I also feel something like Z-Mirror Move Blaziken could have real potential.

 

[Rezileen]

Azumarill @ Normalium Z
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 164 HP / 252 Atk / 92 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Splash
- Play Rough
- Aqua Jet
- Knock Off

Splash + Aqua Jet shouldn't be legal. Azumarill gets Splash only through Azurill, and it gets Aqua Jet as an egg move on Marill. So an Azurill with Splash evolves into a Marill without Aqua Jet, and a Marill with Aqua Jet never learned Splash since it was never an Azurill. This should probably be reported as a bugfix.

 

[carlucio7]

I have been using Groundium Z on sand rush excadrill to blow away pokemons like tap fini and slowbro who would otherwise stop the sweep. It hits aegislash under kings shield as well.

252+ Atk Excadrill Tectonic Rage vs. 252 HP / 124+ Def Venusaur: 160-189 (85.5 - 101%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

[Bugzy]

I have been using Groundium Z on sand rush excadrill to blow away pokemons like tap fini and slowbro who would otherwise stop the sweep. It hits aegislash under kings shield as well.

I've tried icium z on alolan sandslash and it worked pretty well. Though he has some terrible weaknesses he also has good resistances so he can force a switch out and grab a swords dance, then you just nuke whatever comes out next. In general though z attack moves probably aren't going to be very meta, it's going to be z status.

I could see giving a mon a z attack move to nuke something that could wall it though... like giving a fire type water z or something to destroy a rock or ground switch in. Problem is they'd have to be able to learn a decently powerful move of that type and I'm not sure it'd be worth it to give up your item slot and your z move slot for the while team just for that unless you have something that can really sweep a whole team but just has trouble with 1 type that can wall it.

 

[D-Rock16]

Not sure if it's viable, but Cosmoem evolves into Solgaleo/Lunala, so you could give Solgaleo Z-Splash, right?

 

[Boomfan56]

Z-moves never miss, which makes them even better for obvious reasons.

Xurkitree used Z-Hypnosis!
Xurkitree's Speed rose!
The opposing Zygarde avoided the attack!

Either you're wrong or showdown's wrong because this just happened

 

[MrTharne]

Xurkitree used Z-Hypnosis!
Xurkitree's Speed rose!
The opposing Zygarde avoided the attack!

Either you're wrong or showdown's wrong because this just happened

Z-moves based on damaging moves can't miss (the ones that change names completely), the status Z-moves (Z-nameofthemove) use same accuracy than base move and those can miss.

 

[Leica]

Conversion Porygon-Z is hilarious, got myself into top 10 on the ladder quite quickly with it but that doesn't mean anything now obviously, and I likely dropped a lot already.

Still incredibly funny to see how easily it sweeps unprepared teams.

 

[Valiant Scizor]

With Mega Venu running around, would. Flynium-Z Azumarill with Bounce be worthwhile? Maybe once the meta slows down, it could see some use to break defensive cores.

 

[Jaroda]

With Mega Venu running around, would. Flynium-Z Azumarill with Bounce be worthwhile? Maybe once the meta slows down, it could see some use to break defensive cores.

Azumarill is pretty item dependent on Sitrus Berry, Choice Band, Assault Vest, etc. M-Venu can be better delt with a different lure like Landorus with Extrasensory.

 

[Höhe]

I'm in love with Porygon-Z² too, +1 to all stats is so awesome. I waited for Porygon-Z to be viable again since Gen 4. Ice beams also deals with Coil Zygarde quite well, which is invaluable at the moment. He's also more bulky than he looks.

+1 0 Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Electric Porygon-Z: 260-308 (83.6 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Lol. Well, not that bulky.

 

[Martin]

The only times I think I'd ever consider using Z moves are on status moves with particularly good Z-effects (Parting Shot/MEmento, "+1 all" moves, Splash on SDless 'mons etc.), on Manaphy and on Pokémon who use Power Herb lures (Heatran Solar Beam-->Bloom Doom; Landorus-T Fly-->Supersonic Skystrike etc.). Beyond this their only real use seems to be for bluffing scarf a-la EBelt. They feel a lot like the spiritual successor to gems barring the one-per-team thing, although it really sucks that you can't use it on Pursuit 'cause Dark Gem Tyranitar is like the most fun thing ever in BW.

 

[mido_128]

Lower tier fun -

Archeops@Rockium-z
Jolly 252atk/4def/252sp
-Head smash
-Acrobatics
-Earthquake
-Uturn/defog/roost etc

At 200 base power before stab, Continental crush is a friggin nuke and hurts off 140 base attack.
As I understand, the z crystal disappears and you are then free to fire off acrobatics or whatever else is best.
Looking forward to trying this in lower tiers.

 

[Höhe]

Z crystal stays, so Acrobatics is basically useless. Sorry.

 

[nameless90]

Azumarill @ Normalium Z
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 164 HP / 252 Atk / 92 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Splash
- Play Rough
- Aqua Jet
- Knock Off
Splash is pretty good, and that +3 attack as a Z-move is no joke. So basically this is similar to azumaril's standard BD set, except it trades in power for bulk. Though +3 isn't as nearly as insane as +6, it is still good enough to OHKO many offensive pokemon with aqua jet, and you don't jeopardize your bulk. This set fares better against offensive teams, while BD is for more defensive team.

This set could be really good if Aqua Jet is legal alongside Splash.
Otherwise, we still have Z-Belly Drum which heals us until 100% HP before subtracting 50% HP needed for the regular Belly Drum's effect. This is still an improvement over the classic Belly Drum set, because now you can always boost your Atk unless you are OHKOed.

 

[Jojobobo]

Z-Splash Kingdra under rain is actually really good.

Kingdra @ Normalium Z
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Splash
- Waterfall
- Outrage
- Return

After Z-splash you're basically at +3 Atk and +2 Speed. Return is there so you can hit water-resists without locking yourself into outrage. This set destroys common switch ins for special Kingdra like Chansey and Amoonguss.

I was thinking about Kingdra, wouldn't it now be better to run a mixed attacker set with Focus Energy and Scope Lens with Swift Swim (not Sniper) rather than waste the Z-move? You're trading a x2.5 boost for a x1.5 boost, but you're now incredibly difficult to wall and ignore defence boosts. Here's the set I was thinking of:

Kingdra @ Scope Lens
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 36 HP / 160 Atk / 252 SpA / 60 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Focus Energy
- Waterfall
- Draco Meteor
- Hydro Pump

160 Attack EVs with a Naughty nature 2HKOes Chansey, while also retaining the ability to fire off strong critical Draco Meteors (which naturally ignore your SpAtk drops) and Hydro Pumps. 60 Speed EVs is enough to just outspeed Pheromosa and Mega-Alakazam under rain, the rest gives you a little bulk. The reason why I feel such a set didn't catch on last gen is Kingdra doesn't have bulk enough really to manually switch in from Politoed, taking a hit, then set up - taking another hit. The difference this gen is that Pelipper has a slow as balls U-turn to safely bring in whatever you please, making setting up way easier than it was before.

Some calcs, showing hits against walls and a neutral bulky mon in the form of Mega Metagross:

Hide

252 SpA Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory in Rain on a critical hit: 294-346 (88 - 103.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
160+ Atk Kingdra Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey in Rain on a critical hit: 321-378 (50 - 58.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex on a critical hit: 190-225 (62.5 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Amoonguss on a critical hit: 279-328 (64.7 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Metagross in Rain on a critical hit: 303-357 (100.6 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I guess this was a bit of a tangent from the Z-move discussion again, but I thought it was interesting to show an alternative to Z-moves that potentially achieves similar results.

 

[BENDIEZ]

Many Z moves are outclassed by simple Life Orb or whatnot. The status Z Moves are easily the best ones and indeed have uses. As for the attacking ones, Lures will be more powerful like giving Heatran Solarbeam, which translates to an extremely powerful grass move. Just waitin' to obliterate many water types looking for an easy switch. I guess Z Iron Head / Flash Cannon could be used alongside Kingdra to massively dent Fairies. Though that sounds like a meh choice than sticking to a boosting item and letting team mates handle them.

A shame Z Hidden Power is useless due to it always being a normal type move. Honestly though, Any type would have made Z Hidden Power the ultimate lure move. Some people would LOL RAGE QUIT if they got owned by a random Z Hidden Power type. It's bad enough losing to random hidden powers you almost never see.

 

[Jojobobo]

Was looking through the other moves that give +1 to all stats, it turns out Celebrate and Happy Hour also achieve the same effect (at least, according to . You know who got Happy Hour and/or Celebrate in an event last gen? Greninja and Jirachi! Others also do, like Gyarados, but they can only use Intimidate with it - in which case Dragon Dance is probably better. Some sets:

Jirachi @ Normalium Z
Ability: Serene Grace
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Happy Hour
- Iron Head
- Fire Punch / Drain Punch
- Zen Headbutt / Substitute / Thunder Punch

In one boost you have both the speed of Scarf and the power of Band with added defence to boot. Not only that, unlike Scarf you're not locked into a single move, allowing you to easily counter sets that would check Choice-locked Iron Head like Ferrothorn. Drain Punch and Sub can be used to protect you from status, or you can run additional coverage. A gimmickier option might be running Power-Up Punch, which with your defences would be manageable. A mixed set could be run given you also have +1 SpAtk, but I couldn't see a particularly attack that would be worth it. The set has to be shiny from the event, and also means no Heart Stamp which was itself event locked. I've tested it, and the set definitely works (see replay here).

EDIT: Some more replays (will add a few more as I go)... Replay 1 - What would have been a Rachi 6-1, with a smidge of FlinchHax, natch

Greninja @ Normalium Z
Ability: Protean
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Happy Hour
- All the insane coverage Greninja can run

As long as you get a set-up opportunity, you're absurdly fast and have +1 Atk/SpAtk Protean boosted attacks. As when Greninja was previously legal, you tailor the coverage you need to your team. You can't use Battle Bond, but I don't really see why you'd need it. Pretty sweet.

 

[Kejmur]

Was looking through the other moves that give +1 to all stats, it turns out Celebrate and Happy Hour also achieve the same effect (at least, according to . You know who got Happy Hour and/or Celebrate in an event last gen? Greninja and Jirachi! Others also do, like Gyarados, but they can only use Intimidate with it - in which case Dragon Dance is probably better. Some sets:

Jirachi @ Normalium Z
Ability: Serene Grace
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Happy Hour
- Iron Head
- Fire Punch / Drain Punch
- Zen Headbutt / Substitute / Thunder Punch

In one boost you have both the speed of Scarf and the power of Band with added defence to boot. Not only that, unlike Scarf you're not locked into a single move, allowing you to easily counter sets that would check Choice-locked Iron Head like Ferrothorn. Drain Punch and Sub can be used to protect you from status, or you can run additional coverage. A gimmickier option might be running Power-Up Punch, which with your defences would be manageable. A mixed set could be run given you also have +1 SpAtk, but I couldn't see a particularly attack that would be worth it. The set has to be shiny from the event, and also means no Heart Stamp which was itself event locked. I've tested it, and the set definitely works (see replay here).

Grass Knot / Energy Ball / HP Ice ? At this moment set is hard walled by most bulky grounds and giving Zygarde free set-up opportiunity (good luck flinching guy to death with his bulk) generally isn't good idea in this metagame. HP Ice is good option against both Landorus forms, Garchomp and Zygarde, which otherwise are really bane of this set. If you want to get rid of something like Hippowdon or Mega Swampert, Grass Knot would do the trick. Not sure how many EVs in Special Attack you would need here, some calculations would be needed. Not a bad idea, but as I said - it really dislike bulky grounds which are common in this metagame. Also Alolan Marowak easily deal with this.