Offensive: Special
Defensive: Mixed
Speed: Medium
Defensive: Mixed
Speed: Medium
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CAP 3 CAP 3 - Part 5 (Build)
- Thread starter Gothic Togekiss
- Start date
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It is not necessary. But it will make the actual strategy last longer. If you get your sub broken each turn, the more HP% you regain with Leech Seed+Leftovers, the more subs you will be able to get. With Toxic, that leads to an excellent stalling strategy.
But no, it is not needed, per se. You only need substitute and Leech Seed, obviously.
And what's with all the BST submissions again? I think it was agreed to not jump much far ahead in the polls, right?
Well, next poll is BST and the one after is base stat spreads, so we're not jumping that far ahead.
Unfortunately, it doesn't have all those HPs at once.
Toxic Stall Cresslia might work. If you predict correctly (or even if you don't, since only HP rock and Overheat do much of anything), the Pokemon itself functions as a perfectly viable counter to itself. Bring it in on Leaf Storm, Leech Seed, or HP not Rock and then force it out with Toxic/HP Rock/Whatever we end up giving this Pokemon.
Also, who said we're giving this Pokemon both Leaf Storm and Overheat?
Offensive: Mixed
Defensive: Special
Speed: Fast
Offensively, this Pokemon is too good to restrict to just one side. As I stated in a previous poll, Grass/Fire is a brilliant physical attacking combonation - pretty much every physical wall not named Gliscor or Weezing is hit SE. On the other hand, adding HP Ice would give this thing an even better set of special options to work with (and it's not like we can really justify giving it an ice attack otherwise). It could definitely work effectively as both as long as we give it good enough stats.
Defensively, this typing is slightly better for taking special hits, though it could really go either way.
As for speed...as someone stated before, there are fast Chloro users, it just means that they don't need speed investment. I'm leaning more towards the lower end of "Fast", but I wouldn't mind medium as long as this thing can actually make decent use of it's speed (aka, preferably at least 70).
Defensive: Special
Speed: Fast
Offensively, this Pokemon is too good to restrict to just one side. As I stated in a previous poll, Grass/Fire is a brilliant physical attacking combonation - pretty much every physical wall not named Gliscor or Weezing is hit SE. On the other hand, adding HP Ice would give this thing an even better set of special options to work with (and it's not like we can really justify giving it an ice attack otherwise). It could definitely work effectively as both as long as we give it good enough stats.
Defensively, this typing is slightly better for taking special hits, though it could really go either way.
As for speed...as someone stated before, there are fast Chloro users, it just means that they don't need speed investment. I'm leaning more towards the lower end of "Fast", but I wouldn't mind medium as long as this thing can actually make decent use of it's speed (aka, preferably at least 70).
So if next poll is BST, we do need to submit stat spreads now...but the criteria for stat spreads hasn't been decided yet. Is there going to be a 1-day period for submitting spreads after this poll finishes, or something?
Uhh Dane, where in that post do I say that low HP is good for SubSeeding?
I clearly specified that it was a claim, not that I agreed with it.
Anyway, there isn't really a formula so much. A generic mixed spread for mixed walls (what seems to voted as the majority here) is 252 HP / 96 Def / 160 SpD +Def Nature. Basically maximum HP, and then whatever EV number in the 80-120 range that gives the bonus point with the +nature for one of the defenses, and the rest of the EVs in the other one.
I then put this same spread on two Pokemon, one with low HP stat and high defenses (example, Dusknoir, with 45 HP / 135 Def / 135 SpD), and one with higher HP and lower defenses (generic 105 HP / 105 Def / 105 SpD, so remain consistent with the Dusknoir example's total number).
I then put the same EV spread on both, and multiplied the HP by Def, the HP by SpD, and compared the numbers. I forget what guide showed that this was an effective way to look at total defense (the HP * Def thing), but it is correct.
But just to show how it is efficient to have high HP, I'll use an example that actually has less total defensive base stats than Dusknoir, Jirachi.
Dusknoir is 45 HP / 135 Def / 135 SpD, for a total of 315.
Jirachi is 100 HP / 100 Def / 100 SpD, for a total of 300.
Dusknoir's spread with the generic mixed wall EV distribution is 294 HP / 363 Def / 346 SpD. This yields 294 * 363 = 106722 for Defense, and 294 * 346 = 101724 for Special Defense.
Jirachi's spread with the generic mixed wall EV distribution is 404 HP / 286 Def / 276 SpD. This yields 404 * 286 = 115544 for Defense, and 404 * 276 = 111504 for Special Defense.
Comparing the two: for Defense, 115544 / 106722 = 8.27% more efficient defensively, and 111504 / 101724 = 9.6% more efficient special defensively.
That's basically a +Nature added to both defenses for the higher HP Pokemon. But that's not all. Not only does the higher base HP actually make us more efficient, but note how Jirachi's total defense was 15 lower than Dusknoir's. What does this mean? This means that not only did we become more efficient defensively, we were able to become even better overall because we had an extra 15 to work with.
Honestly, while it may "seem" that lower HP evidently helps with SubSeeding, it is really just an "on paper" type of thing. Nearly every respected battler than I have spoken to on this matter has agreed; the supposed advantages of lower HP on a SubSeeder are substantially lower than the general utility a higher HP number would give that Pokemon.
Not to mention, of course, that this is a strategy done by quite a few Pokemon, and one that emphasizes the secondary typing. You mentioned 3 Pokemon that do it well...but I would like to throw Celebi and Jumpluff into the the mix as well. 5 Pokemon that do such an obviously Type-specific strategy is quite a bit, not too mention that I would easily argue Venusaur's and Meganium's ability to SubSeed as well, bringing that number up to 7.
Since Time Mage was the one who sparked this low HP stuff in the other thread, I'll respond to his post here. He said he wished for 50ish HP and 110ish Defenses...Spiritomb has 50 HP / 108 Def / 108 SpD, so just think about that for "bulk." I however will use 50 HP / 110 Def / 110 SpD.
Generic EV distribution yields 304 HP / 308 Def / 296 SpD.
This yields 304 * 308 = 93632 for Defense, and 304 * 296 = 89984 for Special Defense.
I'll use Kangaskhan as comparison as it has 105 HP / 80 Def / 80 SpD, meaning it actually has 5 total lower defenses.
Generic spread gives 414 HP / 242 Def / 236 SpD. This yields 414 * 242 = 100188 for Defense and 414 * 236 = 97704 for Special Defense.
Again, let's compare: 100188 / 93632 = 7% more efficient defensively, and 97704 / 89984 = 8.58% more efficient special defensively.
Of course, again, not only did we net more efficient overall defenses, we saved 5 for distribution elsewhere. Not only that...but do you guys actually want something that is less bulky than Kangaskhan?!! Lol, comon now. To compensate for the lack of HP, we would have to literally pump into the defenses, and thereby reduce our options for the offenses and Speed. Higher HP is just an overall more efficient choice to go with.
I clearly specified that it was a claim, not that I agreed with it.
Anyway, there isn't really a formula so much. A generic mixed spread for mixed walls (what seems to voted as the majority here) is 252 HP / 96 Def / 160 SpD +Def Nature. Basically maximum HP, and then whatever EV number in the 80-120 range that gives the bonus point with the +nature for one of the defenses, and the rest of the EVs in the other one.
I then put this same spread on two Pokemon, one with low HP stat and high defenses (example, Dusknoir, with 45 HP / 135 Def / 135 SpD), and one with higher HP and lower defenses (generic 105 HP / 105 Def / 105 SpD, so remain consistent with the Dusknoir example's total number).
I then put the same EV spread on both, and multiplied the HP by Def, the HP by SpD, and compared the numbers. I forget what guide showed that this was an effective way to look at total defense (the HP * Def thing), but it is correct.
But just to show how it is efficient to have high HP, I'll use an example that actually has less total defensive base stats than Dusknoir, Jirachi.
Dusknoir is 45 HP / 135 Def / 135 SpD, for a total of 315.
Jirachi is 100 HP / 100 Def / 100 SpD, for a total of 300.
Dusknoir's spread with the generic mixed wall EV distribution is 294 HP / 363 Def / 346 SpD. This yields 294 * 363 = 106722 for Defense, and 294 * 346 = 101724 for Special Defense.
Jirachi's spread with the generic mixed wall EV distribution is 404 HP / 286 Def / 276 SpD. This yields 404 * 286 = 115544 for Defense, and 404 * 276 = 111504 for Special Defense.
Comparing the two: for Defense, 115544 / 106722 = 8.27% more efficient defensively, and 111504 / 101724 = 9.6% more efficient special defensively.
That's basically a +Nature added to both defenses for the higher HP Pokemon. But that's not all. Not only does the higher base HP actually make us more efficient, but note how Jirachi's total defense was 15 lower than Dusknoir's. What does this mean? This means that not only did we become more efficient defensively, we were able to become even better overall because we had an extra 15 to work with.
Honestly, while it may "seem" that lower HP evidently helps with SubSeeding, it is really just an "on paper" type of thing. Nearly every respected battler than I have spoken to on this matter has agreed; the supposed advantages of lower HP on a SubSeeder are substantially lower than the general utility a higher HP number would give that Pokemon.
Not to mention, of course, that this is a strategy done by quite a few Pokemon, and one that emphasizes the secondary typing. You mentioned 3 Pokemon that do it well...but I would like to throw Celebi and Jumpluff into the the mix as well. 5 Pokemon that do such an obviously Type-specific strategy is quite a bit, not too mention that I would easily argue Venusaur's and Meganium's ability to SubSeed as well, bringing that number up to 7.
Since Time Mage was the one who sparked this low HP stuff in the other thread, I'll respond to his post here. He said he wished for 50ish HP and 110ish Defenses...Spiritomb has 50 HP / 108 Def / 108 SpD, so just think about that for "bulk." I however will use 50 HP / 110 Def / 110 SpD.
Generic EV distribution yields 304 HP / 308 Def / 296 SpD.
This yields 304 * 308 = 93632 for Defense, and 304 * 296 = 89984 for Special Defense.
I'll use Kangaskhan as comparison as it has 105 HP / 80 Def / 80 SpD, meaning it actually has 5 total lower defenses.
Generic spread gives 414 HP / 242 Def / 236 SpD. This yields 414 * 242 = 100188 for Defense and 414 * 236 = 97704 for Special Defense.
Again, let's compare: 100188 / 93632 = 7% more efficient defensively, and 97704 / 89984 = 8.58% more efficient special defensively.
Of course, again, not only did we net more efficient overall defenses, we saved 5 for distribution elsewhere. Not only that...but do you guys actually want something that is less bulky than Kangaskhan?!! Lol, comon now. To compensate for the lack of HP, we would have to literally pump into the defenses, and thereby reduce our options for the offenses and Speed. Higher HP is just an overall more efficient choice to go with.
There will likely be a one day Base Stat Total poll. Either during or after, GT can either have people submit their spreads or ask specific people for their ideas. Up to him.
That means using 190/65/60 yields:
584 / 209 / 196
Defense: 584 * 209 = 122056
Special Defense: 584 * 196 = 114464
Wonder what the most efficient numbers are. I know Blissey-esque HP with 30/30 drops to 5 digits, so there has to be a peak somewhere. Obviously numbers like this are way too far out, but still.
Anyway, interesting way to calculate defenses.
That means using 190/65/60 yields:
584 / 209 / 196
Defense: 584 * 209 = 122056
Special Defense: 584 * 196 = 114464
Wonder what the most efficient numbers are. I know Blissey-esque HP with 30/30 drops to 5 digits, so there has to be a peak somewhere. Obviously numbers like this are way too far out, but still.
Oh, but... Who was talking about being totally efficient in the defenses? If we are going to talk about perfect efficiency, we could just make the non-used offensive stat 1 and effectively distribute the total BST between 5 parameters, and not 6.
Of course even HP and defenses (with a bias towards HP since it affects both defenses) is more efficient. You don't need a math Ph.D. to know that.
Of course even HP and defenses (with a bias towards HP since it affects both defenses) is more efficient. You don't need a math Ph.D. to know that.
Lmao, Time Mage...are you serious?
"Who was talking about being totally efficient in defenses?" It isn't efficient only in defenses, if you had the courtesy to read the post you'll notice it is efficient OVERALL. Having higher HP means we can put more INTO THE OTHER STATS.
Also, don't give me your snide remarks about putting 1 into an offense; I am perfectly aware of the fact that the CaP project doesn't wish to look like an absolute joke, which is what it would be if it didn't work within a certain limit. Please.
What kind of a joke are you trying to pull?
"Who was talking about being totally efficient in defenses?" It isn't efficient only in defenses, if you had the courtesy to read the post you'll notice it is efficient OVERALL. Having higher HP means we can put more INTO THE OTHER STATS.
Also, don't give me your snide remarks about putting 1 into an offense; I am perfectly aware of the fact that the CaP project doesn't wish to look like an absolute joke, which is what it would be if it didn't work within a certain limit. Please.
Then why the bloody balls, may I ask, are you suggesting the opposite? Even worse...it isn't even considered a direct advantage for Subseeding!!
What kind of a joke are you trying to pull?
Blah, having a civilized discussion with you seems impossible. You are too aggressive for my liking.
I'll explain myself once more:
At first, I thought "what makes a subseeder get more HP per turn?" Just low HP, obviously. But to be able to pull that off, a high enough speed is needed, to be able to put the sub/leech seed on the switch, then do the opposite before it can get attacked. So, I wanted low HP and high speed. However, to not hinder it much because of the low HP, it needed high-ish defenses, so I went for that. Then, finally, I wanted it to attack from the special side with decent power, and I chose a decent SAtt, and a pretty poor Att.
All comes from my intention of having a very good subseeder who can ALSO be used as a sweeper due to good SAtt and speed. Of course it would get more from its base stats if it had balanced HP and defenses, but that wasn't my focus. You can disagree with my goal, of course, but given my premises, what I propose is very good for the job.
I don't feel like repeating myself again, so this will be my last post on the subject.
I'll explain myself once more:
At first, I thought "what makes a subseeder get more HP per turn?" Just low HP, obviously. But to be able to pull that off, a high enough speed is needed, to be able to put the sub/leech seed on the switch, then do the opposite before it can get attacked. So, I wanted low HP and high speed. However, to not hinder it much because of the low HP, it needed high-ish defenses, so I went for that. Then, finally, I wanted it to attack from the special side with decent power, and I chose a decent SAtt, and a pretty poor Att.
All comes from my intention of having a very good subseeder who can ALSO be used as a sweeper due to good SAtt and speed. Of course it would get more from its base stats if it had balanced HP and defenses, but that wasn't my focus. You can disagree with my goal, of course, but given my premises, what I propose is very good for the job.
I don't feel like repeating myself again, so this will be my last post on the subject.
Aldaron what you dont seem to understand is that we are NOT trying to maximise defencive efficency, infact haveing inefficent defences would help to limit this pokemons power and alow us to give it useable stats in both offences without brokeness.
This is NOT like in team makeing where you want to maximise the Pokemons power, we must limit it. Giveing it low HP does this while helping an underused stratergy.
Aldaron I respect you greatly and know you are probaly the best battler who is active in the CAP project but I must say this: I think you have been quite rude to several members of CaP (specificly Dane) who were making (or trying to make) valid points, it is fine to disagree with them but dont turn this thread into a psudo-flame war.
And LOL at Wonder Guard...
This is NOT like in team makeing where you want to maximise the Pokemons power, we must limit it. Giveing it low HP does this while helping an underused stratergy.
Aldaron I respect you greatly and know you are probaly the best battler who is active in the CAP project but I must say this: I think you have been quite rude to several members of CaP (specificly Dane) who were making (or trying to make) valid points, it is fine to disagree with them but dont turn this thread into a psudo-flame war.
And LOL at Wonder Guard...
Man, you kids keep insulting me lol. I'm just stating facts here. Keep your snide remarks like "having a civilized discussion with you seems impossible" out of here, since I have not directly insulted you nor have I been uncivilized at all. Spare me your condescending baloney, Time Mage. It is wholly unnecessary.
Now let me, once again, for like the bajillionth time, tell you why you are wrong.
Dusknoir is what I would consider bulky (though again, as I have already prove, very inefficient), and this needs 135 Def and 135 SpD to compensate for that low HP. 315 total in the defensive stats means something like 220 left if we decide to go for 535 as the total, or 230 if it 545. OK, well to stay within the limits of reason, the lowest you could make the Attack is 60, meaning 230 - 60 = 170. This means you would have an average of 85 between Speed and Special Attack...right, you've really accomplished your goal of being fast and being able to sweep, haha. Wait, nope, you have not. 85 Speed and 85 Special Attack? Hell no am I sweeping or even being fast with that. 100 Base Speed is usually the general bottom line for "fast Pokemon," so you would require 70 Special Attack? Great sweeper that is, lol.
With low HP, you cannot accomplish the goal of being bulky and being a special sweeper. Sure, you could give it the bulk of Spiritomb...but as everyone knows, Spiritomb is NOT bulky. If our Pokemon has more resists, maybe we could argue to make it that "un" bulky, but it doesn't.
To accomplish your "goal" of bulky and special sweeper, you would need to have higher HP so that you could put less into the total defenses and put more into Speed and Special Attack. I've outlined this twice already, do I need to outline it again?
What you are doing is lowering the efficiency of our defensive and offensive capabilities to supposedly buttress a secondary typing strategy...and there is a huge emphasis on supposedly, at it barely is of any significant consequence anyway.
Given your "premises," yes, your spread is terrible. Like I said, it would have Spiritomb-type "bulk," and it would be terribly inefficient overall. To be effectively bulky with such low HP, it would need much more emphasis on the defenses, which would cut back on your offensive potential.
EDIT: Lol, you guys are seriously testing my patience. Eric, are you joking now? I haven't directly insulted anyone here. In fact, Dane was the one who referred to me as an ass. Please, read before you make judgments. Both Dane and Time Mage have personally attacked me, while all I stated was that I wished for them to stop spreading false information. I now ask you, eric, to do the same.
Also, what complete and utter baloney is this
How the hell is it broken to maximize the efficiency of your stats...
Now let me, once again, for like the bajillionth time, tell you why you are wrong.
Here, you haven't responded at all to my claim that you would have to pump the defenses freakishly high to compensate for that less HP. I've already shown you how 50 HP / 110 Def / 110 SpD probably isn't high enough, as this would make it less bulky than Kangaskhan. Kangaskhan man; you want our creation to be that bulky? Lol.
Dusknoir is what I would consider bulky (though again, as I have already prove, very inefficient), and this needs 135 Def and 135 SpD to compensate for that low HP. 315 total in the defensive stats means something like 220 left if we decide to go for 535 as the total, or 230 if it 545. OK, well to stay within the limits of reason, the lowest you could make the Attack is 60, meaning 230 - 60 = 170. This means you would have an average of 85 between Speed and Special Attack...right, you've really accomplished your goal of being fast and being able to sweep, haha. Wait, nope, you have not. 85 Speed and 85 Special Attack? Hell no am I sweeping or even being fast with that. 100 Base Speed is usually the general bottom line for "fast Pokemon," so you would require 70 Special Attack? Great sweeper that is, lol.
With low HP, you cannot accomplish the goal of being bulky and being a special sweeper. Sure, you could give it the bulk of Spiritomb...but as everyone knows, Spiritomb is NOT bulky. If our Pokemon has more resists, maybe we could argue to make it that "un" bulky, but it doesn't.
To accomplish your "goal" of bulky and special sweeper, you would need to have higher HP so that you could put less into the total defenses and put more into Speed and Special Attack. I've outlined this twice already, do I need to outline it again?
Honestly, what proof do you have that lower HP actually makes this an efficient SubSeeder? Because every prominent battler I have asked (note Surgo, Carl, Tangerine, all administrative staff on this site) has stated that it serves minimal "in-battle" advantage. Sure, "sucking" more percentage HP "seems" useful, but in reality it rarely is that much more useful.
What you are doing is lowering the efficiency of our defensive and offensive capabilities to supposedly buttress a secondary typing strategy...and there is a huge emphasis on supposedly, at it barely is of any significant consequence anyway.
Given your "premises," yes, your spread is terrible. Like I said, it would have Spiritomb-type "bulk," and it would be terribly inefficient overall. To be effectively bulky with such low HP, it would need much more emphasis on the defenses, which would cut back on your offensive potential.
Good, because I don't appreciate how you are not only attacking me personally, but you are attacking this project by purposefully pushing a personal preference of yours, and in effect lowering the capabilities of our Pokemon just to supposedly emphasize a strategy for its secondary typing. Note that it does not really help the strategy. Note that it makes the Pokemon's spread less efficient. Note that it is a strategy for the secondary typing. Note that it is a strategy done well by what I would argue is at least 7 Pokemon.
EDIT: Lol, you guys are seriously testing my patience. Eric, are you joking now? I haven't directly insulted anyone here. In fact, Dane was the one who referred to me as an ass. Please, read before you make judgments. Both Dane and Time Mage have personally attacked me, while all I stated was that I wished for them to stop spreading false information. I now ask you, eric, to do the same.
Also, what complete and utter baloney is this
Now it literally seems like you are supporting your friend for completely arbitrary reasons.
How the hell is it broken to maximize the efficiency of your stats...
I didn't call you an ass until after you had already claimed that I had been spreading false information multiple times, when in fact I had not.
1) I said Low Hp helps subseed. It does, just not to the same extent that I was originally arguing. Does this mean I was spreading false information? No, it means that it doesn't help enough to be worth hurting it's overall defensive abilities.
2) I claimed you said low hp cannot take hits. I admit this was skewed, but you still rebuttle by saying it's not efficient. If it isn't efficient at taking hits, then it's not really good at taking hits is it?
You then said you had posted those numbers before. I looked through your posts, and you had not posted them anywhere before, and you have still not addressed this point. I skewed one fact by misreading. You completely lied about a statement. You spread the false information, yet accused me of repeatedly doing it.
To me, that is a personal attack. That is why I made a small quip towards you.
Oh, and as per the subseeding Pokemone usage, when was the last time you saw a Jumpluff, Meganium, or subseeding Venusaur? There's really only 3 that ever show up and use it.
I was actually referring to the same post where I stated that 100 HP / 70 Def / 70 SpD was more efficient than 90 HP / 90 Def / 90 SpD, that's what I meant by numbers. I had assumed that someone who wished to be a topic leader would have realized the implicit truth in this, without me having to spell out exactly how those are better.
By numbers I meant the spreads I was giving as an example. I just decided to actually do the math when it became obvious that you guys didn't know it.
So uhh, I did provide numbers...just not the most obvious explanation behind them. I guess I can apologize for assuming a potential topic leader had a basic understanding of Pokemon mechanics.
Just to tell you where you did provide false information, look at post number 166 of this thread. You say:
Do you get how I did not lie? I assumed that you would understand the math behind it, and I can apologize for that basic assumption I guess. But now you have referred to me as an ass and liar, while not admitting that you were spreading false information.
Honestly, I don't understand how the CaP project wishes to gain any legitimacy when three prominent members within it, Dane, Time Mage and Eric the Espeon have gone out of their way to attack someone else on a personal level. All I said was that I wish for you guys to stop spreading false information, and my only mistake to you Dane, was assuming you had a basic knowledge of the maths behind my spread example. Still, that assumption is not nearly enough to outweigh the fact that you have referred to me both as an ass and a liar, how Time Mage has referred to me as uncivilized, and Eric has decided to completely ignore both of these and call me disrespectful merely for wishing a lack of false information.
By numbers I meant the spreads I was giving as an example. I just decided to actually do the math when it became obvious that you guys didn't know it.
So uhh, I did provide numbers...just not the most obvious explanation behind them. I guess I can apologize for assuming a potential topic leader had a basic understanding of Pokemon mechanics.
Just to tell you where you did provide false information, look at post number 166 of this thread. You say:
That is false. It aids in his ability to be a more efficient mixed wall. You said it doesn't aid his ability to do anything else. Is this not spreading false information?
Do you get how I did not lie? I assumed that you would understand the math behind it, and I can apologize for that basic assumption I guess. But now you have referred to me as an ass and liar, while not admitting that you were spreading false information.
Honestly, I don't understand how the CaP project wishes to gain any legitimacy when three prominent members within it, Dane, Time Mage and Eric the Espeon have gone out of their way to attack someone else on a personal level. All I said was that I wish for you guys to stop spreading false information, and my only mistake to you Dane, was assuming you had a basic knowledge of the maths behind my spread example. Still, that assumption is not nearly enough to outweigh the fact that you have referred to me both as an ass and a liar, how Time Mage has referred to me as uncivilized, and Eric has decided to completely ignore both of these and call me disrespectful merely for wishing a lack of false information.
I was thinking 90/110/110/85/85/55, but Torterra already has 95/109/105/75/85/56 which is waaaay too similiar. However, it's the build I feel most comfortable with - good physical stats, no need for high speed at all, needs at least average HP to pull off the bulk, and then I don't want it to be frai lon the Special side while I don't want it to waste its potential Special movepool either.
Fuck you Torterra.
Fuck you Torterra.
Ah, thanks. For some reason I assumed "BST poll" meant actually deciding the BST distribution.
I still want this thing to have usable speed. If we give it something like 55, we're limiting its utility a lot on non-sun teams, and there are a few Chloro pokemon with decent speed scores (Shrifty, Jumpluff).
Well, by numbers I meant the reasons why those numbers were better. Not everyone knows these formulas, and you even admitted it wasn't really a formula but rather a process. Being Topic Leader doesn't mean someone can understand something they not only never learned, but something with no additional reasoning to back it up.
Again, see above. I don't even know where you got that process for defensive worth, since it isn't in the D/P resource thread. How many people even know that process, because it doesn't seem very "obvious".
I had forgotten about this, and in a later post even specified that I had meant an actual tactic outside of being a generic wall (ie, high defenses don't help it sweep better, just longer). Perhaps you missed that?
Again, I felt as if you attacked me first. Go back and read some of your responses, you came off as very arrogant. Even in this most recent response you come in claiming this to be common knowledge, yet it's not in the D/P resource thread.
Also, I no more called you a liar than you did me. You never posted the numbers to back up your claim, so I called you on it. If you think me calling you on it is such an insult, realize you did it to me first. You clearly said:
Yet you never said why, you just said that they were. That's what I was calling you on.
You may not out right say it, but your posts insinuate that anyone who doesn't know of this "defensive value" process knows nothing about Pokemon. Seriously, go back and reread some of your posts on this matter. Outside of my one instance of telling you to "stop acting like an ass to prove your point" (reinforcing that as far back as then you were sounding arrogant in your posts), I feel I've been civilized. In fact, once you finally did mention the defensive worth, I asked you to explain it so I could learn it. Stop trying to act like a victim here, you insulted and "attacked" me (as well as calling Deck Knight "so dense it's amazing") well before anyone did you.
Now back on topic, are any of the three options actually close in tally? The only that I could see being close is speed. If it's indeed close, do we do a singular run-off thread or do we run it in conjunction with BST/Art?
Uhh I clearly edited that Deck Knight post, Dane. Nice try. Bottom line is that you spread false information at one point. Sure, you corrected it later, but that was after I had called you out on it.
Anyway, the other bottom line is that all I said was that you were spreading false information. That's all. Even if I was wrong, there is not need to call me an ass, uncivilized and disrespectful.
Honestly. I have every right to feel a victim here.
I also have every right to comment on how I responded perfectly civilized after you asked me to explain the formula, thank you very much. Have a nice day.
Also, clearly stating why HP was better to me was posting the spreads. I provided you with the example, it's on your time that you learn the reasoning. That's just basic.
Anyway, the other bottom line is that all I said was that you were spreading false information. That's all. Even if I was wrong, there is not need to call me an ass, uncivilized and disrespectful.
Honestly. I have every right to feel a victim here.
I also have every right to comment on how I responded perfectly civilized after you asked me to explain the formula, thank you very much. Have a nice day.
Also, clearly stating why HP was better to me was posting the spreads. I provided you with the example, it's on your time that you learn the reasoning. That's just basic.
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