CAP 32 - Part 19 - Post Play Lookback 2

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spoo

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CAP 32 So Far

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In this stage we will first reflect on the process so far, discussing what we've learned from this process, how this well we have fulfilled its concept, and what impact CAP32 had on the metagame. After that, we will discuss some possible minor tweaks to the product in order to better fulfill our goals. Please follow the Topic Leader's instructions and don't propose any specific changes until they say so.

Changes allowed:
  • Typing changes
  • Changes to primary or secondary ability
  • Stat changes
  • Move additions and removals
 

spoo

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Well, I was planning to wait until CAPPL + the CAP32 Playtest were finished, but we gotta expedite things a bit so we can start the next CAP on time! This is the second and final PPL for Hemogoblin, and will run until July 26th - we'll be taking things a little slower compared to the first PPL. Once again I'd like to start off with some process questions before competitive things get taken care of.

We covered all the major stuff back in the first PPL so gonna keep things brief here.
  • Do you think the dual-PPL model works as a safety net for CAPs that come out around DLC/HOME support/other Gamefreak induced changes, or is there a better way for us to adapt?
  • Could we have prepared differently/better for HOME's release during CAP32's process itself, or did we do everything mostly the right way?
I think HOME's release had a relatively low impact on Hemogoblin's performance, but we might not always be so fortunate. CAP33 is likely to drop around DLC1 in the fall so it's especially important that we have a more robust plan of action. Having two PPLs instead of one was the best decision that I felt like was available to us at the time, but perhaps there's a better way to adjust to these big meta shifts in the future.

I don't imagine this discussion will take too long so putting a loose 24-48hr cap on discussion before we move onto competitive changes.
 
Do you think the dual-PPL model works as a safety net for CAPs that come out around DLC/HOME support/other Gamefreak induced changes, or is there a better way for us to adapt?
Honestly I think it’s a good model, even though Hemo really didn’t need it this time.
We got lucky/showed a lot of foresight in its design and managed to create a Pokémon, that not only mostly ignores the changes that happened around it but actually is a big part of that change itself.
We will not always have such a lucky hand.
The nature of DLC metas is hard to predict and having a process that allows us to adapt to vastly different conditions is necessary even if it didn’t get used much this time around.
Testing this process structure a second time with different conditions is a good way forward to proof the concept.
 
Do you think the dual-PPL model works as a safety net for CAPs that come out around DLC/HOME support/other Gamefreak induced changes, or is there a better way for us to adapt?
Hemo might not be the best example for this as the home changes did over all benefit it but this does feel like a good safety net to me that something in the past like Miasmaw would have loved to have, here I'm not sure it's need here though, maybe if we looked at if the cap needs it after the dlc drops rather than before hand deciding on it, most likely through a vote or something like that.

Could we have prepared differently/better for HOME's release during CAP32's process itself, or did we do everything mostly the right way?
I'm not sure what we could have done differently and I do think we did do a good job of things, then again we were lucky with hemo not taking any major hits from home, if we could have done something different maybe include the Pokemon already know to be on their way because of datelines in stuff like checks and counters but I don't like the idea of doing that for several reasons, we wouldn't even know if our supposed counter/check is relevant in the meta at all or if it's completely out classed by other mons that fill it's role better, we'd be guessing how something works in the meta or if it works in the first place, not to mention have would have no idea if the supposed data mine is accurate so we could prepare for something that doesn't even exist, not to mention this goes into territory of leaked info which we should just generally avoid.
 
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  • Do you think the dual-PPL model works as a safety net for CAPs that come out around DLC/HOME support/other Gamefreak induced changes, or is there a better way for us to adapt?
It's kind of hard to answer that, considering we just started the second PPL for the first time. But overall, I think having a second PPL during "heightened GameFreak release windows" can't hurt. It would be good for something like Miasmaw (who wasn't good after its first buff) to give CAPs an extra opportunity to receive changes that make them balanced yet viable options.

  • Could we have prepared differently/better for HOME's release during CAP32's process itself, or did we do everything mostly the right way?
I think we maybe could've sped up the process a little like we did with Miasmaw, but overall I think the way we did it was still fine. Hemogoblin's viability has given me faith that CAPs released at the same time as giant metagame shifts like Home/DLC can still succeed. I don't think it'd be a bad idea to do what we did with Miasmaw for CAP 33 or future CAPs that will be released near impending DLCs, but I also don't know if we need to do that.
 

shnowshner

You've Gotta Try
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Do you think the dual-PPL model works as a safety net for CAPs that come out around DLC/HOME support/other Gamefreak induced changes, or is there a better way for us to adapt?
I find this works as we need it to. Hemogoblin is unusual in that the new stronger metagame it was thrown into was ideal for its strengths, mainly the Fairy ESpeed aspect. Either way having more time to acquaint ourselves with not only the new additions on GameFreak's end but our own is vital to ensure we didn't misstep somewhere along the way. Two PPLs gives us a lot more flexibility to make changes that only one might put us off of doing.


Could we have prepared differently/better for HOME's release during CAP32's process itself, or did we do everything mostly the right way?
It's hard to prepare for sudden inclusions like this, so I don't think we did anything wrong specifically. Even if we know what is going to be added in game updates/DLC there is no telling how that gets implemented or how any new additions will fare, so trying to work ahead of DLC is making a giant leap of faith. During times like this it feels more constructive to design a CAP with total syngery in mind versus a metagame lens, if we know that the metagame is going to be shaken up during the process. The former may be why Hemogoblin worked out but why Miasmaw did not.
 

spoo

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Seems like people think the double PPL is a fine response to these kinds of gamefreak releases going forward. I feel the same way, and I'd advocate for it to be done again for CAP33 should it release close to DLC. Ultimately there's not too much we can do to mitigate or prevent the impact from these mid-generation drops, but a second PPL feels like a reasonable and effective enough countermeasure. There may also be other creative solutions that we haven't considered yet - working around gamefreak's ever-changing release schedule is still new territory for us, so it's important to be flexible and continue to try new things.

Okay, now the fun part. Hemogoblin's first PPL changes have been implemented for a little more than two full weeks. These changes were very minor in scope, and it hasn't been a long time since they went live, so I know that their impact might be difficult to get a sense of. Still, it's time for us to reflect on the following questions:

Has anything substantially changed about Hemogoblin's performance since the first PPL? Does it need more changes? And if so, what are they?

One thing I'm especially curious about is the impact from axing Hemogoblin's special sets. I saw dissatisfaction with this decision from a few people at the time, so I'm wondering if anyone feels like the absence of special sets has been really notable or not. Personally, I haven't felt any difference whatsoever, but if there's a lot of well-reasoned support to add back its special tools then I'll consider it.

That's all for now. Get to it!
 
Has anything substantially changed about Hemogoblin's performance since the first PPL? Does it need more changes? And if so, what are they?
Hemo is just as good as it was before hand, I wouldn't really say anything about how it plays has really changed, additionally it's preferred ev spread is still the same so over all hemo is essentially the same despite the changes, that being said I'm not sure we need to change it more because it's at a good place already, during the last ppl we just need to scale hemo back a little because it was a little over tuned and we did that, I don't think we need to make even more minuscule changes than the ones proposed in the last ppl, especially because most would just be flavor motivated like cutting down the special attack now that hemo will never use it or further movepool trimming. Now, as for the special sets, for as much as I argued for keeping them I must admit that hemo's special sets had no impact on it's viability outside of trick room which was niche at best, I did see some special sets that were good outside of trick room, but the current physical set is just better, in actual competitive play hemo is not running a special set, and while some would use this to argue that special sets were fine and would not be an issue to bring back that's just adding back fat that we cut prior, hemo doesn't need the special sets, cutting it just makes hemo's role clearer and removes unnecessary moves that do nothing but trick new players into using them, for as much as I wouldn't have liked to say it during the first ppl it's just fat that needed to be trimmed.
 

Da Pizza Man

Pizza Time
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Has anything substantially changed about Hemogoblin's performance since the first PPL? Does it need more changes? And if so, what are they?
Nothing huge has really changed in regards to Hemo's performance since the first PPL. Special Sets are completely gone now, but this has hardly been noticable since they were never really all that relevant at the first place outside of Trick Room (And even on Trick Room, it was starting to fall off during the last couple of weeks where it was legal). Only thing I guess I can really say is that I've seen less complaints overall about the mon, but even then I'm not sure if that's more of a result of the initial changes working or the fact that the metagame has adapted to its presence.

I think that if there were to be any further changes made to Hemogoblin, it would be the removal of Knock Off. This was discussed a good amount in the first PPL, and while I was sort of on the fench back then, I now believe that removing it would be the best way forward. Many of Hemogoblins checks (Heatran, Equilibra, Venomicon) are fairly reliant on their item, and the ability to permanently cripple such mons just feels incredibly unhealthy when combined with the rest of the kit, and often causes it to feel overwhelming to deal with in the builder. Outside of that, I don't really think we really need to change much else.
 
I'm in favor of adding the special kit back. I know the consensus is that there wasn't a lot of viability to those sets, but it was a really unique feeling wallbreaker with utility and it'd be a shame to lose that entirely even if it's not currently a worthwhile set. A few fat mons walled it but it just volt switched out of those matchups or knocked and threatened them later. The metagame wouldn't have to change that much for it to be solid, it's just currently pretty overshadowed. I just think it's a super fun and interesting way to play the mon. I'm not too hung up on it either way but special hemo is just cool man.
 
I see that Knock Off has been suggested for removal. I do understand the point behind its removal, but I think that it might be too strong a nerf as I don't like being walled by every Fire type without being forced to Tera. I would, however, support it if we gave it a new tool to make up for it, and I think it should be Rock Slide/Stone Edge. You still have bad matchups against Heatran and Toxapex, but now you aren't totally ruined against Fire types like Iron Moth or Volcanion. Stone Edge without boosts only 2HKOs Utility Volcanion and you get outsped and OHKOd back, but it's better than not being able to dent it at all. Not to mention increasing the pace of Hemogoblin vs Hemogoblin wars.
 

Brambane

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At this point of the process, I don't think adding special sets back adds anything competitively significantly. I could argue that removing them in the first place was unnecessary, but it happened anyways and adding them back again is even more convoluted.

Hemogoblin is pretty good, I don't think it really needs a big change like cutting Knock Off. It's a very strong Pokemon that forces the metagame to adapt to it to its presence and definitely limits some builds that would otherwise work in OU or pre-home CAP. That is not inherently bad, the CAP metagame should have some degree of distinction. At some point we do have to let really good CAPs be really good CAPs, and Hemogoblin is pretty much there.

If its titanic success rate in CAPPL (I would attribute this also to people trying adapt to a new metagame) calls for any action, the Pokemon really has no business being this bulky with what it does. Changing Bulk Up to Work Up would reduce its ability to tank through the physical Pokemon and, most importantly, reduce the chance of ending up in a Goblin War. I could also see a decent chunk of SpDef being removed, especially since tanking Jumbao is less of a concern in this meta.
 

quziel

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Gonna be a somewhat disjointed post, so I apologize in advance.

I don't really see a reason to add the special kit back; it was borderline irrelevant before its removal, and the meta hasn't shifted in a way that would fix that. Personally I'd prefer to just remove a fair bit off its SpA if only to make the mon "look" more bang average, but frankly that's not the point of this stage, so there's no real reason to go down that path.

If we're gonna touch moves, I'd prefer to hit either Bitter Blade or Bulk Up over Knock Off. If we remove Knock the mon's just gonna run Tera Blast Tera Ground even more often, which, while reducing its power, makes checking it even more annoying than it is now (read: Tera Ground sets are far more threatening in the late game than Knock Sets, but also are huge Tera hogs). Bitter Blade is the source of a lot of its strength IMO, and while it does make the BU 3 attacks set play almost perfectly, it also means that a single mispredict means that 5 turns of trying to position around Hemo is sorta wasted. Curse or Work Up over Bulk Up would definitely reduce Hemogoblin's power, although I'm not sure really how much by. Curse definitely prevents Goblin from getting a BU on a switch, and then removing an incoming mon after without taking chip, which definitely reduces its power, and Work Up > BU significantly reduces its effective HP during a sweep, which could definitely make its healing feel less insane.

All that said, I think I'd prefer to just hit its SpDef and Def than any move changes. The mon's overall bulk feels the easiest place to hit it, even after the first nerf, and its ability to just sorta tank through a lot of damage (and then heal it up) is a major element of the mon's strength as it is. Its hard ot suggest specific numbers, because everyone runs different HP evs, but shifting it to at least have a higher chance to be OHKO'd by Tusk, and then not being able to survive a 2HKO from stronger special hits seems appropriate? I'm assuming 80 HP evs, because well, I've seen literally all kinds of invest, and this is what we had on the analysis.

90/87/89:
0 Atk Great Tusk Earthquake vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Hemogoblin: 300-354 (85.4 - 100.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Venomicon Sludge Bomb vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Hemogoblin: 248-294 (72.7 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Venomicon Hurricane vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Hemogoblin: 151-178 (43 - 50.7%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Hemogoblin: 159-187 (45.2 - 53.2%) -- 33.6% chance to 2HKO

90/80/80:
0 Atk Great Tusk Earthquake vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Hemogoblin: 326-386 (95.6 - 113.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Venomicon Sludge Bomb vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Hemogoblin: 270-318 (79.1 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Venomicon Hurricane vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Hemogoblin: 165-195 (48.3 - 57.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Hemogoblin: 172-204 (50.4 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

These are just like, trial changes, and it's quite hard to suggest proper numbers, but just wanted to give an idea of how some changes to the defenses affect some moderately important calcs.

Broadly I'd suggest either replacing BU with Curse or Work Up, or doing a further overall bulk nerf. I generally prefer the latter, as I feel its a bit truer to the concept, and probably is a more subtle change, as eg -9 to both defenses is equivalent to taking ~13% more damage, which while bad, really is not gonna drastically change how the mon plays the way any move changes will. Removing Bitter Blade and forcing it to rely on Fire Lash is also valid, and means you can't play the mon nearly as cavalierly.
 
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I'm in the camp that we don't really need to touch movepool. As already mentioned we solved the (non) issue of Hemogoblin's convoluted toolkit, and removing anything like Bitter Blade, Bulk Up, or Knock Off feels largely unnecessary and would impact its set more than what is needed. If we had to remove one of those three I'd say Knock Off would be the least debilitating, as Hemo very much banks on its recovery and setup.

I do think that Hemo's stats can still be tweaked, either hitting its offenses, bulk, or both. As it stands the mon is immediately threatening with 96 BP fairy priority, so lowering these would provide more wiggle room to play around. Speed stat really feels like a non-issue and I don't think it needs to be touched

TLDR: Touching movepool is unnecessary, but its attack or bulk could still be lowered.
 

shnowshner

You've Gotta Try
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My initial dislike of Special was due to it overloading our movepool with options I found to be "matchup fishy." Hemogoblin needs checks and the more strong moves it has the less mons are available that function as checks. Ergo, without moves like Boomburst and Fiery Dance keeping Special sets alive, general physical walls (Garganacl, Dondozo, Great Tusk) are much better checks to Hemogoblin.

Over time however it seems that Hemogoblin's pool of checks is still fairly limited. Anything that would like to switch into it faces one of two problems:
  1. Knock Off removing a key item like Leftovers or Heavy-Duty Boots, making the Pokemon more susceptible to chip damage and potentially losing the interaction over time.
  2. 252+ Atk Tera Ground Hemogoblin Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 456-540 (141.1 - 167.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
We can't do much about the second point as that's just part of playing Gen 9 and Tera Blast being universal. On the other hand, Knock Off is certainly an option for removal, and would mean that Hemogoblin doesn't have a "one size fits all" solution for various checks. Tera Blast still provides a way past certain Pokemon, but has much greater opportunity cost and lacks Knock Off's utility and long-term damage potential.

Of course, if we remove the designated fourth move slot on Hemogoblin, than another move will likely need to move into it's place. Hemogoblin uses Knock pretty selfishly, the team support aspects being a nice bonus on top, so the replacement move would likely be whatever is best at muscling through its pool of checks. Tera Blast puts in the most work here, granting a 120 BP coverage move and new typing to play around threats. I've only seen Ground at this point since it annihilates Heatran and is similarly good versus other Fire/Steel/Poison types (who knew Fairy/Fire/Ground was good coverage?), with some extra defensive utility in resisting incoming Poison/Rock move or neutralizing our own Ground weakness. I do envision people going this route with Hemogoblin more often with Knock gone, and it's more immediately threatening and game-swinging than Knock Off is, debatably making the mon more of a hassle to deal with. Being a Tera hog isn't ideal, however, and if Hemogoblin feels compelled to run Tera Ground, then there'll be less room for Tera Fairy in the metagame, which lowers the effective power of Extreme Speed. So in a roundabout way, removing Knock Off is sorta a nerf to Hemogoblin's ability to get away with boosting Extreme Speed to the ridiculous levels it can.

I definitely find nerfs which address Hemogoblin's bulk to be more attractive in this case. I argued before about how the combination of defenses + Extreme Speed + Bitter Blade + Bulk Up lets you live an absurd amount of interactions most other Pokemon wouldn't dream of.

A stat nerf is very appealing in my eyes because our moveset is honestly really cool, and it'd be a shame to lose that. I'd have to look into benchmarks more but lowering both defenses by a good chunk gets the job done. Our raw bulk is a bit over the bang average line IMO and could definitely see a harsh cut.

Replacing Bulk Up with a weaker alternative in Work Up or Curse is significantly more interesting. Bulk Up pulls a lot of weight thanks to the boost to Attack and Defense enhancing a lot of our kit. Bitter Blade especially enjoys the move, as hitting harder = more HP regained, and higher Defense = more efficient HP on the Physical side. With Work Up, we lose that Defense bonus, meaning Hemogoblin needs to rely solely on the Attack boost to get work done, and reduces the amount of power it gains from a free turn. Curse keeps the boosts, but lowers our Speed in the process. Hemogoblin is already quite slow, but still enjoys investing in Speed to outpace a handful of Pokemon in the Base 60 range. The Speed drop from Curse is enough to put us below Venomicon and Equilibra even with maximum investment, so by boosting our Physical stats, we in turn make ourselves more vulnerable to a lot of slower hard-hitters. The choice between either depends a lot on how much you value the synergy in our kit: I think both are equally valid.

Removing Bitter Blade is another option, probably my least favorite but no less effective. This move makes up for its average base power with the massive amount of healing you can get back from it, and largely allows Hemogoblin to get away with not having a Recovery move since a correct turn with Bitter Blade provides more than enough healing. Not having Bitter Blade means Hemogoblin needs to drop something if it wants better longevity or pair with a Wish/Healing Wish user. Don't worry about losing a strong Fire STAB in the process by the way: Fire Lash is an equally powerful move with arguably better damage output and good synergy alongside Extreme Speed.
 

spoo

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Been over 24hrs since the last post so let's wrap this portion up and move onto package submissions. It seems like the general consensus is that hemogoblin still needs some changes, though there isn't a clear consensus on what these changes should be.

Personally, I agree that another nerf is in order, but I'm of the same mind as others in this thread that reworking its movepool any further is just not necessary. It's pretty clear that hemogoblin is sitting near the top of the metagame right now, but if it's not overpowered or unhealthy - and I would argue that it isn't either of these things, though some may disagree - then is that such a bad thing? There have been exceptionally few times, and even less so as the meta continues to develop, where I've felt that hemogoblin's strength is unfair or too constraining on the tier. Again, others may feel differently, but that has been my experience playing and building lately. Minor targeted bulk nerfs are what I personally believe will be best.

I have not been convinced that special sets have enough merit to be added back, so packages that aim to do so may receive less consideration. Since this is the case, it's also fine to cut SpA in your packages if you wish to - or keep it the same, either way is good by me.

Will be closing this thread on the 26th, thanks for the productive discussion so far.
 
Final Submission

- 6 Defense
- 9 Sp. Defense
- 24 Speed

New Stats: 90/96/81/99/80/31 (477)

Removing 6 in Defense guarantees Unburden Sneasler OHKOs it with Dire Claw.

252+ Atk Sneasler Dire Claw vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Hemogoblin: 342-404 (100.5 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Was originally -3 but I didn't think that was enough.

Removing 9 in Sp. Defense guarantees Krilowatt's Surf OHKOs it.

252 SpA Life Orb Krilowatt Surf vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Hemogoblin: 343-406 (100.8 - 119.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Speed nerf forces it to run max Speed if it wants to outspeed Equilibra while running Adamant, which would force it to run more Speed EVs and less EVs in other stats.

Fairly minor nerfs, but I don't think it needs anything too major. I'm not trying to butcher the mon. Since movepool changes seem to be frowned upon (or at the very least, not preferred to stat nerfs) I think this is pretty safe.
 
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Da Pizza Man

Pizza Time
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WIP

- Knock Off


That's the whole package. I honestly don't think Hemo's stats need to be touched all that much, if at all. I've sort of already made my argument as to why I don't like Knock Off, but as a quick refresher it just feels like it allows Hemo to play around it's checks way more than it should. I'm also not a big fan of quziel's argument that removing Knock Off is just going to make Tera Ground w/ Tera Blast more common, because that's already something that's possible to begin with.
 
-Knock Off

I think that the overall usage and win rates of Hemo this CAPPL demonstrate that it does need a decently sized nerf; the stat changes in the first PPL were pretty trivial and I think doing minor stat changes a second time would be a mistake. While some other movepool options seem interesting, I find that Bitter Blade and ESpeed are integral to Hemogoblin so the only other route is to swap Bulk Up for something else. Frankly, I don't think Curse changes much for Hemo as it only really impacts the MU into Kingambit/Libra/Venom, and going second doesn't even mandate that Hemo sustains chip as it can trade back with Bitter Blade against these mons. Conversely, I think Work Up is just not a good move and not worth being run. Knock Off feels like it very clearly messes with a lot of would-be Hemo checks in an undesirable way, able to make solid progress against Garganacl, Heatran, Venomicon, Specs Iron Moth, etc. when Hemo doesn't really need to to be viable.

I also don't find Knock Off to be as critical to Hemo as people make it out to be. Even without Knock Hemo can make a lot of progress simply by the amount of switches ESpeed forces against faster threats; a few games of CAPPL even show how strong Hemo is with just ESpeed and Bitter Blade. I don't really buy the Tera Ground argument because honestly I don't think it's that good. Heatran feels very weak atm(even if Hemo does lose Knock) and it doesn't obliterate other checks like Garg or Pex immediately either. In a metagame full of other mons that can abuse Tera and Tera Blast, Hemo isn't a cut above the rest that I see it being the new norm, nor do I think that if it is, it's necessarily a bad thing.

Also while writing this DPM submitted the same package I agree with what he said good post
 
Final Submission

- Knock Off, +Boomburst, +Volt Switch


I initially was using bulk cuts to nerf Hemo but I quickly realized that most relevant benchmarks required really heavy cuts that changed the mon more than I was comfortable with. Taking more from random chip becomes less relevant when Bitter Blade is in the mix. In the end, I came to the conclusion that removing Knock Off is a much cleaner option that helps preserve specific checks.

I posted above about special Hemo (primarily specs) being a unique wallbreaker that's worth keeping even if it's not great right now. Boomburst and Volt Switch are essential to any special kit, especially with Knock Off removed since it provides a way of pressuring checks such as Galarian Slowking and Venomicon. The other moves were extraneous in my eyes so I don't think we need to add back Fiery Dance or Lava Plume (or Spikes).
 
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dex

Give my perception as a handle of weapon
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Hemogoblin requires a more sizable nerf than one may think. It has a profound effect on the builder, at times in an unhealthy manner. Much of OU is unequipped to handle the mon, and while it increases the viability of balance, it heavily, heavily decreases the variability of teams. There’s just not a whole lot that’s worth running with hemogoblin in the tier. It needs a nerf, and a good one at that. Removing Knock Off is the easy answer, as that makes it so much less of a pain to switch into and soft check. If people care about Dark-type coverage, give it crunch. Removing items from its checks is too strong for a mon that can win after a singular Bulk Up.

-Knock Off
+Crunch or +Spikes whichever suits your fancy
 
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WIP

Nerf Package:

Stat Changes:
-9 Def (87->78)
-13 Sp.Def (89->76)
90/96/78/99/76/55 BST: 498


The main goal with this package is to make it harder for hemo to stay in on the things that it hurts the most with knock off, mainly venomicon and galarian slowking, now while hemo has the ability to out speed both of these this package makes it so both can ohko hemo making it much riskier to stay in and click knock off, this also has benefits of making libra constantly ohko hemo (even if hemo out speeds libra usually lives a bitter blade), as for the defense drop it just makes it so kingambit can 2hko with iron head as long as it gets one in before hemo uses bulk up.

Now, I'm not a fan of removing knock off, at the very least we should give it compensation if we remove knock because by removing knock we deprive hemo of options, out side of knock and it's stabs in bitter blade and espeed hemo has very few other good attacking moves and zen headbutt and wild charge aren't enough to make up for the removal of knock, hemo also has very few statues moves that can do more than be filer and none of them make up for removing knock, if we were to compensate for it then it could be fine but I opted to go the route of balancing around knock off more, now while hemo can remove items from it's checks it pays for it by being koed, this let's it's checks check it while hemo can still use knock on other targets.

(edit note: I'm in the process of reworking this package, as such this package no longer 100% accurately reflects my thoughts on the matter)
 
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I don’t agree with the removal of Knock Off at all. Being able to cripple bulky staples like Venom, Garg, Glowking, Heatran, Libra, Pex and itself arguably helps making these mons more manageable for offensive teams. The nature of Hemo will be anti offensive team structures (even on offense) as long as it keeps extreme speed and removing that is obviously is insane.
While it’s true that Knock is making Hemo more splashable i believe that its removal will make it even harder to slot on more offensive teams as most replacements (except Tera Blast) feel better on bulky builds.
Now does that really help foster diversity? Offensive teams will still have to be built with Hemo in mind, bc its speed control is just so powerful. Defensive teams still will be able to slot Hemo. And yes Knock is really good into defensive answers but when those answers are meta defining mons like Venom Garg and Libra I hardly feel that’s oppressive in itself (when the answers are defensive mons like this it really seems like backwards logic that -Knock will help diversify builds away from bulky teams too.)
Imo bulk nerfs are the only way to help make Hemo less reliable for bulky structures in the builder without being overly dramatic. Removing its ability to check offensive mons offensively and defensively seems like the best way to ensure more diverse builds and decreased splashability.
The heaviest bulk nerf would actually be the removal of Bitter Blade as it forces Hemo to use different sets for different builds.
Bulky builds need Hemo to be able to recover and stay healthy, which either comes at the cost of boosting or coverage, offensive builds really want the power of boosting but having to decide between coverage and healing means a real trade off.
Tbf I believe this is way too harsh and atm I only really support nerfs limited to it’s bulk as my opinion is that Hemo is already in a really good spot.
 

kenn

Prince of the Halidom
is a Community Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderator
Final Submission

- Bitter Blade


I really think that the issue with why Hemo still feels overtuned is having access to a STAB move that not only has good BP, but also augments its overall bulk by recovering damage done to it. I think losing Bitter Blade will force Hemogoblin to be stuck in between the choices of coverage in the form of Ground Tera Blast, utility from Knock Off, set up with Bulk Up, and the choice of recovery in Moonlight after choosing its STAB moves (in this case Fire Lash and Extreme Speed should Bitter Blade be taken away). Fire Lash as the main Fire STAB can still apply pressure to the offensive teams that Hemo threatens due to nothing wanting to potentially deal with the -1 Defense drop from Fire Lash into STAB Pixilate-boosted Extreme Speed.
 
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shnowshner

You've Gotta Try
is a Pre-Contributor
tbh i don't feel like submitting another revision after getting one through the first ppl so i'm going to focus on other ideas first

- Knock Off
-Knock Off
-Knock Off
-3 defense
-3 spatk
-5 spdef
-Knock Off
+Crunch or +Spikes whichever suits your fancy
not all of these are the same but the removal of knock has very similar implications and any differences is just preference for voters

there's been a whole heap of debate on how removing knock affects us. there's concerns over if its too much of a nerf and will make hemogoblin too weak into checks, some meanwhile find this to only encourage tera blast sets to lure in and KO specific checks with any assort of tera types it could use (ground and water seem most likely but there could be more), some think it doesn't do enough to fix hemogoblin's constrains on teambuilding and ability to trade positively with a lot of mons.

tbh i find that if we remove knock it might be in our interest to give it a similarly safe and easy button to click so that this mon doesn't feel as compelled to run tera blast as i'm not really sure what you run on the fourth slot without knock, given how much hemogoblin enjoys going for the endgame.

i don't super mind the whole tera blast issue some see coming as tera is a valuable resource and you may not always want to commit it onto hemogoblin, and if you don't tera blast is simply not helpful in 99% of cases. without knock hemogoblin is worse into the sum of its checks and can only pick off certain ones with any give tera type, meaning it can fumble more often. this does increase the unpredictability though which can definitely be annoying, but i feel this is in somewhat bad faith as you can still get away with these tera types as is now if you really wanted to, it's just that knock off gives you an avenue to not care and make progress against any check.

ultimately if this mon ends up in a state where its matchups are very polarizing where it sorta invalidates a lot of offensive stuff but gets stonewalled by other things unless it teras than that's honestly fine with me. knock off leaves hemogoblin with very little that actually wants to respond to it, perhaps tera does the same but that reads as more of a tera problem than a hemo problem, the mechanic in general makes a lot of safer options way more dangerous because matchups can be flipped on a dime.

- 6 Defense
- 9 Sp. Defense
- 25 Speed
this is rather heavy-handed but i am a fan of the direction, the bulk cuts don't even seem necessary but i understand wanting to benchmark it at no investment. lowering speed means much less room to invest elsewhere and allows stuff to speed creep hemo if they want. i do wonder if such a heavy drop in speed may encourage bulkier spread thus retroactively making it more difficult to KO but at the same time running so little speed means you probably get owned by kingambit or ursaluna so w/e

-3 HP
-3 SpAtk
-4 SpDef
+Boomburst, +Volt Switch
this is not nearly enough imo, if you're not removing knock or bulk up than you need some pretty heavy stat nerfs and these are more modest than what we decided on in ppl 1. and it gives boomburst + volt back as well? i'd want to see the bulk reduction more than doubled here to be okay with it

-9 Def (87->78)
-13 Sp.Def (89->76)
okay now this is meaty. i was experimenting with sizeable cuts like this and felt pretty good about it but ultimately wasn't sure where to go or if i even wanted to submit again. the bulk at this point really demands attention if you want hemogoblin to tank se hits

- Bitter Blade
- 6 Atk
i've soured a bit on -bitter blade as it's maybe the least significant of our 4 goodstuffs moves (granted it's still fantastic but it goes to show how important the other three are). it does have the effect of making damage stick to hemogoblin much more which i think makes the mon way easier to handle as chipping it down becomes significantly more valid of a strategy. the attack nerf is nice as well just to make its damage output easier to manage, i think you could maybe do a bit more with this one but the theory is absolutely there
 
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