CAP 5 CAP 5 - Part 10c (New Move Poll 2)

[Deck Knight]

People bitched about Ancient Power's chance of triggering some major stat boost and that's has a 10% chance of happening. How is reducing the effect by 20 points going to help? Changing the effect rate from 30% to 20% seem like a better deal.

Because it changes the occurrence of burn from 1 in 3 to 1 in 10. Duh. Fire Blast was popular as a filler in RBY precisely because you had a 1 in 3 shot of crippling a physical pokemon. 1 in 3 is pretty darn good odds, since you can generally switch out 2 or 3 times, and it only takes one Burn to render your counters ineffectual at taking out anything that isn't explicitly weak to their attacks. For the entire game.

What the pro-Brimstone forces don't seem to get is that Burn makes a physical counter useless for the entire match. "But it can still beat Rockmon!" Yeah, great, and Gyarados can still beat Arcanine after a burn, but it can't do squat to Metagross even with Earthquake when it switches in, and will be summarily Thunderpunched into oblivion. There may be a better example than that, but the idea is the same.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

I have to say if Brimstone's Burn chance was 10% I wouldn't be bitching about it at all. In fact I would say that then the two choices - TechAP and Brimstone would be pretty equal. TechAP has more power, Brimstone has more PP. Both have a 10% chance of a cool and useful side effect.

Why do we need to make the Technician set and Levitate set equal? Not every ability given to a Pokemon are made equal, look at Bronzong and his seemingly equal abilities. People tend to use Levitate over Heatproof because Levitate is better than it overall. The same thing is happening to Rockmon in terms of ability choice. With the addition of Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, Flamethrower, and Earth Power in it's movepool, Tech doesn't look so appealing compared to Levitate. I will admit that Technician have it's perks, what with the following moves:

- Hidden Power Ghost, Dark, Bug, Steel, Dragon, Psychic, Fighting

- Ancient Power - 90BP (135 with stab) move with a small chance of raising all stats by 1.5x. Yes I'm aware of talk about the boost being not so useful, just wanting to point out that AP does have something over the new move.

- Giga Drain - 90 BP attack that heals, have to have some merits

- Air Cutter - 82.5BP move with a heighten critical hit factor.

- Water Pulse - 90 BP move with a 30% chance of confusing foes

- Vacuum Wave - 60 BP Fighting priority...wished Rockmon was Rock/Fighting now :c

- Any physical move with 60BP or below (Gimmick CB set)

Technician would have a better shot at being used more if it was the primary objection within this project and some weird add-on that people will probably forget.

Because it changes the occurrence of burn from 1 in 3 to 1 in 10. Duh. Fire Blast was popular as a filler in RBY precisely because you had a 1 in 3 shot of crippling a physical Pokemon. 1 in 3 is pretty darn good odds, since you can generally switch out 2 or 3 times, and it only takes one Burn to render your counters ineffectual at taking out anything that isn't explicitly weak to their attacks. For the entire game.

What the pro-Brimstone forces don't seem to get is that Burn makes a physical counter useless for the entire match.

Erh....that's sorta was the point of Brimstone, to lessen the impact of moves dealt from those physical counters and force switch-outs. It just so happens that burn does a better job at it with the cost of being near permanent and sapping the Pokemon of HP but hey well have to make sacrifices. That 1:3 chance of weakening said counter is also one of the few reasons why it's 30% in the first place.

 

[jagged_angel]

Why do we need to make the Technician set and Levitate set equal? Not every ability given to a Pokemon are made equal, look at Bronzong and his seemingly equal abilities. People tend to use Levitate over Heatproof because Levitate is better than it overall.

Technician would have a better shot at being used more if it was the primary objection within this project and some weird add-on that people will probably forget.

I'm not sure that last sentence makes sense. Remember we Chose Technician as one of two abilities for Rockmon so if we don't make Technician a viable choice for competitive use we're pretty disjointed in terms of creating pokemon. What would be the point of giving it Technician if it doesn't use it.

The Heatproof/Levitate example doesn't fly because Levitate is inherently better than Heatproof, its an immunity versus a neutrality. Technician on the other hand is Not inherently worse than Levitate, so since we Chose to give it to Rockmon we need to actively structure his movepool so it is a viable ability choice.

The moves you mentioned are somewhat useful but I very much doubt that Technician Ancientpower will see any use over Levitate and Brimstone if it wins.

Erh....that's sorta was the point of Brimstone, to lessen the impact of moves dealt from those physical counters and force switch-outs. It just so happens that burn does a better job at it with the cost of being near permanent and sapping the Pokemon of HP but hey well have to make sacrifices. That 1:3 chance of weakening said counter is also one of the few reasons why it's 30% in the first place.

You say it yourself - Brimstone PWNs physical counters. Ancientpower can't claim that even if the stat boost occurs.

 

[beej]

I went with Dust Cloud/whatever name is decided (it doesn't appear to be the official name in the description). A Flamethrower clone seems fine to me, I personally HATE the idea of nerfing the attacking power of what are normally checks against Rockmon.

 

[-Zer0-]

This guy might be turning into a sort of skymin, I don't think that's such a good thing.

I voted ancient beam. I can nowhere near understand why people like brimstone. It is way overpowered. Rockmon's main STAB should not have a secondary effect which is perhaps better than the damage it might be dealing. Destroying all physical counters(and I know it won't always) it not something a poke with 130 base speed and 120 spatk.
High speed:
The best Jolteon can do it thunderwave, and it's OU
The best Aerodactyl can do is set up rocks, and it's OU
Weavile is only 5 speed away from this poke's stats (swap atk for spatk) and it has, it can toxic, but it never needs to, and it's OU

As you can see, rockmon doesn't need its burn to be good. It will be overkill, and it will overpower it.

 

[bojangles]

Voting Brimstone, its a nice concept and it breaks the mold.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Burn will not break Rockmon, where in God's name did Rockmon + ability to burn foes = OMFG Uber belief come from? Brimstone is neither overpowering nor ridiculous. How would any of you know it's overpowering?

I'm not sure that last sentence makes sense. Remember we Chose Technician as one of two abilities for Rockmon so if we don't make Technician a viable choice for competitive use we're pretty disjointed in terms of creating Pokemon. What would be the point of giving it Technician if it doesn't use it.

The point involving my last sentence was that Technician seem more like dead weight within this project and to Rockmon. People probably voted for Technician out of a desire to make the perfect Tech abuser, which doesn't look like it's happening. Tech would have a better chance at being good if it was an only ability and within a specific project objective.

You say it yourself - Brimstone PWNs physical counters. Ancientpower can't claim that even if the stat boost occurs.

Doesn't 100% "pwn" any physical counter, just give them something to think about as they switch in. Most of you people wanted a stab move that doesn't overshadow TechAP in power but still have some merits within a Levitate. How was I suppose to know adding a status effect would actually overshadow TechAP. =/

Talk within the discussion thread began about relieving some pressure off Rockmon's weak defense by attack lowering tactics. I thought and assumed that making a move with a good chance of burning said counter would be the best way to go at it. Burn does a better job at lowering said attackers' attack strength and it does force probably more switch-outs than an Ancient Beam. Brimstone was made to fulfill these wish, that's why it's here today.

 

[ParadOxymoron]

Seriously, guys! Brimstone is not ridiculous. 30%! It has a 30% chance of Burning something that is probably going to die from the next Brimstone hit anyway! In what way is that broken? This is not 100% accurate Burn. This is a 30% chance. This is Rock Lava Plume. Most Pokemon end up using Flamethrower over Lava Plume anyway! It's not a big deal, and it's an awesome move that we'd be quite silly to pass up on.

 

[Darkflagrance]

The point involving my last sentence was that Technician seem more like dead weight within this project and to Rockmon. People probably voted for Technician out of a desire to make the perfect Tech abuser, which doesn't look like it's happening. Tech would have a better chance at being good if it was an only ability and within a specific project objective.

Too bad that current regulations on Concept proposal prevent anyone from doing what you suggest.

Also, I disagree that this will not be a decent Tech user. Does this have to lose all of the 95 base special moves to be that?

 

[jagged_angel]

Too bad that current regulations on Concept proposal prevent anyone from doing what you suggest.

Also, I disagree that this will not be a decent Tech user. Does this have to lose all of the 95 base special moves to be that?

It's not about whether this is a decent Tech user. Simply with TechAP and 89BP Hidden Powers, it's got Some merit.

It's more of a question of whether Technician sets can compete with Levitate sets.

With Brimstone, I believe that no one will be able to justify TechAP as alternative stab other than for gimmicks.

But it's not getting Calm Mind! :(

How do you know? There's been no Non-Attacking Moves Poll yet. What I'm seeing in the other thread is alot of support for Calm Mind and no one suggesting that it will be uncounterable.

Seriously, guys! Brimstone is not ridiculous. 30%! It has a 30% chance of Burning something that is probably going to die from the next Brimstone hit anyway! In what way is that broken? This is not 100% accurate Burn. This is a 30% chance. This is Rock Lava Plume. Most Pokemon end up using Flamethrower over Lava Plume anyway! It's not a big deal, and it's an awesome move that we'd be quite silly to pass up on.

Take Metagross for example. It can safely switch into Brimstone which I'm sure is a 3 or 4HKO. If it gets burned it can no longer Bullet Punch or Pursuit with efficacy. In fact, it should switch out or it'll take an Earth Power to the chin. Same story with Bulky Fighters. In fact the Only physical counter/check who stands a chance when Burned is Revenankh. Lets not try and increase his popularity further please. Even he is screwed if the burn doesn't wear off quickly.

We would not be quite silly to avoid Brimstone like the plague.

 

[Recoil]

Firing beams is better than exploding coal, so yeah.
Actually, I just think that 30% is a bit too much. Maybe... 20% would be acceptable?
Nothing against Dust Cloud and Diamond Core, they are pretty cool, but I like beams and AB's effect isn't something horribly broken.

 

[Shelcario]

Ancient Beam gets my vote again.

 

[swordmaster117]

Went with dust cloud. Brimstone seems like a good concept, but there is just too much that would get owned on a switch in, and then would most likely be dead after 1-2 more hits, less with TechAP. Also, this poke does not really have time to set up sandstorm (yea i no others can set up for it), so the added 30% chance is new and useful, and it won't completely cripple physical attackers.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Firing beams is better than exploding coal, so yeah.

......but I like beams.....

Certain reasoning onto why you choose an option are best kept to yourself. If you're voting for something because of some personal reason, you don't exactly need to explain as to why you choose that option. If you love beam-related move, thats good for you man

.