CAP 7 CAP 7 - Part 15 - New Move Discussion/Submissions

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Edited based on suggestions.
Name- Fatal Knowledge
BP- 85
pp- 15
Accuracy- 100%
Effect- Divines the opponent's most powerful attack not already used, but loses 10% of it's HP.
What's the type/physical/special attack? Seems way too strong for me. Perhaps lower the BP to around 50. A scouting attack like this shouldn't be too overpowered imo.

As for my contribution, here's an idea:
-An attack to inflict 'curse' status (or something similar which essentially drains their HP, either forcing them to switch or stay in and slowly die)
 
Move: Soul Cursing
Type: Ghost
Physcial
BP: 85
PP: 10
Acc: 95
Effect: Move has a 40% chance of causing Ghost Curse effect on the foe.

I always wanted a way to use the Ghost Curse effect without practicly killing yourself doing so.

not much to say about this
 
Hum I was thinking in something like a Ghost Typed Close Combat, maybe something that looked like:

Inner Shadow
Type: Ghost Physical
BP: 120
Accuracy: 100%
PP: 5
Effect: Lower's both the Special and Physical Defenses of the user by one Stage.

I want to change the name, any suggestions are apreciated, hope you like the concept.
 
It would beawesome if you guys stopped making new moves (unless they're drastically different from every single other move mentioned already) and started discussing this plethora of moves we have here. Every single submission (hyperbole) seems exactly the same, bar a couple of changes in BP, PP, whatever.
Agreeing that we should stop just making an umpteen amount of moves, and actually start focusing on what we want this new move to achieve.

I'm assuming we are aiming to create just ONE move as apposed to many. So we have to collaborate and what exactly we want it for.

Do we want a Stab U-turn?? Or do we want some thing a bit more generic an versatile rather then just replicate the job of a move that already exist. If so, let's hurry up and dismiss all U-turn varieties.

Are we going for a greater base power than Shadow Claw?? Do we want a particular side effect?? If so, what effect, for what purpose and to what degree?? Do we want a more utility based move?? What impact do we wnat ti to have on the game.

We need to come to a consensus on exactly why we even need a new move. What is our 'Scoutmon' lacking? What niche can not already be filled or catered to with the already available moves??

Once we have reach on agreement on what these needs are, all we have to do is crunch the numbers to make it work. Then it's just a matter of 'naming' the move. Which we can poll for, so that somebody can claim bragging rights, lol.
 

Deck Knight

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Ok, just a quicky here:

Shadow Fang
Power: 90
Accuracy: 100%
PP: 10
Effect: 50% chance to drop foe's Defense one stage.

Ghost is arguably a much better attacking type than Steel. Not only would this give CAP7 a reliable Ghost attacking STAB, it will be one that is great at forcing switches. I imagine this to work somewhat like Crobat and Gliscor currently use the Screech + U-turn strategy: after the Defense drop, the opposing pokemon is enticed into switching out, in which case you get the advantageous switch with U-turn. If they stay in, they risk being KOed or hurt badly on their lowered Defense stat.
AJC said:
Move: Soul Cursing
Type: Ghost
Physcial
BP: 85
PP: 10
Acc: 95
Effect: Move has a 40% chance of causing Ghost Curse effect on the foe.

I always wanted a way to use the Ghost Curse effect without practicly killing yourself doing so.
These are the kind of moves I would like to see.

Remember folks that this is an offshoot of the Attack Moves thread, and thus it should primarily be about damage, not effect. I don't really consider the likes of Knock Off and Rapid Spin Attack Moves as much as I consider them Taunt-proof support moves. We already have STAB Shadow Sneak and Sucker Punch for priority, so we should really get down to something with 70+ BP, and either raw power or a useful effect like these above.

What I'd personally support is something with 80-100 BP, 10-15PP, 90-100% Accuracy, and a useful effect. I don't think an all-or-nothing sort of 120 BP/80 Acc move would be that useful for a scout. As far as effect types, I'd prefer something that inflicts an effect that already exists. As cool as a novelty suggestion is, someone still has to code the move and it would be nice if they didn't have to screw around with switchin/switchout mechanics like some of the moves suggested.
 
Agreeing that around 90 base power is what we want. Though I personally feel that 50% secondary effect is a tad steep. I'd rather off set this by either dropping it's frequency to 30-40% or by lowing the Accuracy, or both.

The higher the base power is, in contrast, the more we have to dilute the secondary effect and/or accuracy.
 
Agreeing that around 90 base power is what we want. Though I personally feel that 50% secondary effect is a tad steep. I'd rather off set this by either dropping it's frequency to 30-40% or by lowing the Accuracy, or both.

The higher the base power is, in contrast, the more we have to dilute the secondary effect and/or accuracy.
Totally agreed with this post.

A 50% secondary effect is going to turn this thing into a hax-machine. Especially if the attack is going to have ~90 base power. (It'll basically turn this thing into another Skymin) Either lower the percentage, or the power.

I think something along the lines of Body Slam would work wonders (% of effect and power is balanced)
 
Pandemonium
Physical
Power: 80
Accuracy: 100
PP: 10
Priority: 0
Effect: Has a 20% chance to status the target. If this check passes, the target is burned, frozen, or paralyzed with equal probabilities for each.

It is basically a Ghost-typed physical Tri Attack. I think it fits this Pokemon well.
 
Pandemonium
Physical
Power: 80
Accuracy: 100
PP: 10
Priority: 0
Effect: Has a 20% chance to status the target. If this check passes, the target is burned, frozen, or paralyzed with equal probabilities for each.

It is basically a Ghost-typed physical Tri Attack. I think it fits this Pokemon well.
In the spirit of discussion, what do you feel 20% burn, freeze, or paralysis brings to the purpose of out scout? A vast majority seem to feel a Defensive down is the most useful side effect. Why do you disagree?
 
Shade Impact
Type: Ghost
Class: Physical
Base Power: 120
PP: 5
Accuracy: 100%
Priority: 0

Effect: If the opponent switches Pokemon on the turn this attack was selected (including Baton Pass or U-turn), this attack does nothing.
---

Notes: An awesome move for an awesome scout, as it encourages switching, therefore revealing information about your opponent's team.
Alright, here's my move again. I wanted to make it available to discussion, and I'm open to any comments/suggestions you got.
 
Do we want a Stab U-turn?? Or do we want some thing a bit more generic an versatile rather then just replicate the job of a move that already exist. If so, let's hurry up and dismiss all U-turn varieties.
I would second this motion. I don't see the need for U-turn to have STAB. When supporting the New Move motion I was figuring for a 'good' Shadow STAB. STABed U-turn is less solid than STABed Shadow Claw.

Are we going for a greater base power than Shadow Claw??
I do seem to recall 'reliable ghost stab' being a reason for at least a few of the New Move voters. So I would say yes, high base power is wanted. But preferably not a killer 120-150 BP move.

Do we want a particular side effect?? If so, what effect, for what purpose and to what degree??
I am open to just about any effect that works with the concept. No help from me there. However, the Soul Cursing effect of inflicting Ghost type Curse is growing on me. Perhaps give the opponent 1 turn before damage kicks in(that way you don't get hit with the move and then lose 25% hp before getting a chance to switch, we want to force a switch with the secondary effect, not kill with it. In my opinion that is).


Then it's just a matter of 'naming' the move. Which we can poll for, so that somebody can claim bragging rights, lol.
Speaking of naming, being nitpicky on AJC's Soul Cursing... I think something tacky like Doom Claw or something sounds better.

Anyways Soul Cursing is really growing on me.


My suggestion(other than the fact that I don't find the name lovable) is to reduce the side effect to 30% at most. Ghost Curse is a pretty powerful secondary effect. Particularly when you are doing damage along with it.
 
In the spirit of discussion, what do you feel 20% burn, freeze, or paralysis brings to the purpose of out scout? A vast majority seem to feel a Defensive down is the most useful side effect. Why do you disagree?
No matter what switches into the scout, any status the move inflicts should hamper the opponent's attempt to counter it. I am not sure why a Defensive down is the most useful secondary effect as it does not really scout anything at all and could lower the wrong Defense anyway.

Actually a move that lowers whichever Defense stat is higher would be cool but I like my submission so I will stick with it.
 
No matter what switches into the scout, any status the move inflicts should hamper the opponent's attempt to counter it. I am not sure why a Defensive down is the most useful secondary effect as it does not really scout anything at all and could lower the wrong Defense anyway.

Actually a move that lowers whichever Defense stat is higher would be cool but I like my submission so I will stick with it.
The purpose behind a defense drop is the threat of power. CAP7 isn't extremely strong, but it still has the capacity to deal heavy damage with stat mods. Scouting is helped most by the opponent losing stats rather than you gaining stats, though, because otherwise we're just sweeping instead of encouraging a switch, which really is the entire point - if we lower their defense, we can do more damage. The opponent doesn't want that, and is thus likely to want to switch out if their defense has dropped to keep from having whatever they have die. Saying that it would be cool to lower whichever defense stat is higher doesn't help us - CAP7 was voted to be very physically-oriented, so if their special defense is lowered, that doesn't encourage a switch.

In much the same way, your ghost-type tri-attack does not really encourage a switch, either. It can inflict status, which means they may want to switch to something that will mind status the least, but it can't do anything past that, because once something is already statused then unless it's burn on a physical attacker (done better by WoW, which we'll probably get) or freeze there's little reason for the opponent to switch out and possibly get something else statused, unless the attack would kill them and they want to switch to a wall. In that respect, it's little different from any other attacking move... And if it's just an attacking move, what's the point in making something new? We already have very viable 'pure' attacks in Shadow Claw for ghost and Iron Head/Meteor Mash for steel. We don't want this thing to be a real sweeper, so going at it from that angle seems wrong.

Of course, leer/screech effects aren't the only alternate effect that encourages switching - a few other rather useful things have been brought up, like ghost curse, which is pretty interesting. But there's really no point in making attacks that will solely be used on merit of damage, which is what your 'Pandemonium' would inevitably be used for. Of course, it's not nearly as bad as stuff like Ghost Earthquake or Ghost Brave Bird with Flinch or other incredibly ridiculous suggestions that go completely against the concept... But still, from my point of view, it's just not what it could be.

Since I've brought myself to the topic of other effects, I really feel that leer is the best effect to tack on for a variety of reasons, but the most important is that it's "weak" without being useless. Because it's easily removed and it will not usually cause a nigh-immediate loss, it can be tacked on to something with relatively high power with a very high chance of occuring. With things like status moves, or even curse, which can cause the opponent to absolutely have to switch unless they want to die, but are still removed by switching, the power level is inherently very high - it either cannot be put on a strong move, or it cannot come up often. This is contrary to the spirit of the design - there should be an obvious reason to use this move over other moves other than because you want to randomly gain advantage. Even with Screech, the activation immediately puts a lot of pressure on the opponent - there's a reason Screech doesn't do damage. Even with it lacking perfect accuracy, it is essentially just a better Leer. If we tack Screech on, it can't come up more than 30-40% of the time without perhaps being a bit too powerful. Not that there's anything wrong with that - that's not a bad design in and of itself. With Leer, though, it's not overpowered even if we do something with relative strength, even being more likely than not to cause the effect. With a scout type of pokemon, this feels like is the most useful thing to do. This is the logic behind my 'Soul Crush' idea - I feel it is best to pursue a combination utility/damage move, because it feels like it is of appropriate power level while also completely fulfilling the spirit of the design.
 
No matter what switches into the scout, any status the move inflicts should hamper the opponent's attempt to counter it. I am not sure why a Defensive down is the most useful secondary effect as it does not really scout anything at all and could lower the wrong Defense anyway.

Actually a move that lowers whichever Defense stat is higher would be cool but I like my submission so I will stick with it.
I defensive down won't "lower the wrong Defense" since Scoutmon will always run a Physical set. So only a Physical down will actually be of benefit. And I don't think a defensive down is meant to directly detour pokemon that switch in, but rather encourage switch outs from pokemon Scoutmon has come in on.

So on one hand a status ailment side effect might promote deterrence for switch ins, while on the other hand a stat down side effect promotes the incentive for switch outs. Which is more useful?

I personally think promoting switch 'outs' is more beneficial, because we don't wont to discourage things coming in because we wont to SEE what the opponent has. And being able to force switch out would us even MORE opportunity to see what else is hidden away.
 
While it should force switches when the Defense drop occurs, I think that teams geared to handle this Pokemon after it is complete should a Defense dropping move be created will have specific Pokemon that will be the only ones you'll see regardless of whether the drop does or does not occur (Magnezone, Heatran, etc.). Inflicting status that cripples a Pokemon and forces them to sacrifice or switch can potentially force your opponent into revealing something you might not have normally seen with the other move. It is much more difficult to prepare for a random status inflicting move than a move which will always do the same thing which should allow the Pokemon to see more of an opponent's team than usual.

That said, I would support a move that drops Defense too (Ghost is a great offensive type) and perhaps a plain Ghost-typed U-turn (the halving damage thing in Stellar's suggestion is perhaps too powerful despite being interesting).

As for lowering the wrong stat, to abuse lowering the SpDef stat you would probably have to switch unless you have a set specifically designed to abuse that move based on whatever Pokemon are used to beat this Pokemon on the CAP server. Many Pokemon that have considerably higher Attack stats run mixed sets in order to allow them to beat their physically Defense-orientated counters (Hidden Power Fire Metagross, Ice Beam Tyranitar, etc.).
 

CyzirVisheen

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I really like the moves Rift Hop, Pandemonium, Trounce, and Cursed Claw and fully support each of them, Rift Hop and Pandemonium in particular.
 
While it should force switches when the Defense drop occurs, I think that teams geared to handle this Pokemon after it is complete should a Defense dropping move be created will have specific Pokemon that will be the only ones you'll see regardless of whether the drop does or does not occur (Magnezone, Heatran, etc.). Inflicting status that cripples a Pokemon and forces them to sacrifice or switch can potentially force your opponent into revealing something you might not have normally seen with the other move. It is much more difficult to prepare for a random status inflicting move than a move which will always do the same thing which should allow the Pokemon to see more of an opponent's team than usual.
This is a fair assessment, but again, the chances are low, and have to be for balance reasons. It's a tradeoff - a more consistent move versus a more devastating move. The defense-dropping suggestions have been much more likely to go off than the status-dealing suggestions. I see it as kind of a Thunderbolt/Thunder thing. Status moves here aren't bad, but I don't see them as the best option.

As for lowering the wrong stat, to abuse lowering the SpDef stat you would probably have to switch unless you have a set specifically designed to abuse that move based on whatever Pokemon are used to beat this Pokemon on the CAP server. Many Pokemon that have considerably higher Attack stats run mixed sets in order to allow them to beat their physically Defense-orientated counters (Hidden Power Fire Metagross, Ice Beam Tyranitar, etc.).
The problem here is that those pokemon are all much more powerful than CAP7 all around. Yeah, their attack stats are much higher than their special attack stats, but they can break physical walls with special moves. But that's only because their special attack stats are still good. The two explicit examples you gave, Metagross and Tyranitar, have base special attack of 95, which is almost as high as CAP7's base attack of 103, and it absolutely blows away CAP7's uselessly low base special attack of 55. It's also a matter of ratios - the multiple by which CAP7's attack exceeds its special attack greatly exceeds that of other things you've brought up. Given CAP7's wide movepool and running a mixed set it's just almost never going to come up that it's better to attack from special than physical, which leaves switching as the only way to take advantage of that, but you could already switch a powerful special attacker in to a physical wall and in most cases threaten it about as much as if its special defense was lowered. It's just very unlikely for that effect to actually be useful.
 
Agreeing that around 90 base power is what we want. Though I personally feel that 50% secondary effect is a tad steep. I'd rather off set this by either dropping it's frequency to 30-40% or by lowing the Accuracy, or both.

The higher the base power is, in contrast, the more we have to dilute the secondary effect and/or accuracy.
i just checked and the only moves that have 90BP and a 20% or over effect are rock climb (with its 85 Acc.) and sludge bomb (with its horrible attacking type), while just about all the others are pretty much divided into no effect, better chance of crit or 10% stat drop. so its either a Acc drop to about 85 or drop it to 10%.

also, we had a discussion on whether or not a stab u-turn would even be needed in the attack thread. disagreed with it then, and still disagree now. also, how many ways can you say "poke switches out"? then why all these variants that we have no need for?
mag probably put it best-http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1788253&postcount=85
 
AJC said:
Move: Soul Cursing
Type: Ghost
Physcial
BP: 85
PP: 10
Acc: 95
Effect: Move has a 40% chance of causing Ghost Curse effect on the foe.
I have decided to take my play on Soul Cursing

Suggested Name Change: Doom Claw
Type: Ghost
Physical
BP: 85
PP: 10
Accuracy: 95
Suggested Priority: -2
Suggested Effect Change: Move has a 50% chance of causing Ghost curse. Takes effect next turn if the foe fails to switch out. The attack fails if the user takes damage.

Basically a focus punch that inflicts curse. The severe drop in BP should probably balance the effect. The idea here is to force switches when you otherwise could not(zone, tran, bulky waters) while not obliterating/crippling the counter in the process(so just force it out so you see more of the team).

This creates an interesting conundrum. With CAP7 reducing stats with screech and threatening with Iron Head/Meteor Mash people will obviously want to switch(unless they have their counter in already). However, if they switch this move could potentially force a switch AGAIN immediately.

Could cause some mind games I think. If we had a possible set of Meteor Mash/Doom Claw/Screech/Protect or Substitute. Obviously, as stated, most of CAP7's direct counters will not greatly fear a defense drop. They'll just blast it to oblivion before it can kill them either way. However, combined with one of protect or sub(or both if you want to forgo screech or Mash) NOTHING wants to take a Ghost Curse. The mind game here is predicting when you will Doom Claw and not. Obviously leaving in a screeched opponent isn't dangerous if the opponent uses Doom Claw. And switching to a counter/check during Mash is obviously not a bad thing(Zone and Tran have 4x resists and solid defenses and bulky waters have 2x resists and carry solid defenses).


And no, I am not sure why I am dead set on negative priority penalty for this thing. . .
 
^ I rather go with AJC's version then that mess D:. It's way more simpler and less head scratching than that. Seriously, negative priority + attack fails if user takes damage....sounds like Focus Punch with an addition effect. Hell, you could have given it 150 BP, 100%, and 20PP and just say it was. Why does it even have a negative priority anyway?
 
Why does it even have a negative priority anyway?
Because Focus Punch does?

Left it with AJC's acc/pp/bp since I was just modifying it. I suppose I could be overestimating Ghost Curse, but I consider it to be a bit nasty. But I really liked the idea of being able to inflict it without kiling yourself(like AJC said... err... I think that was AJC).
 
Because Focus Punch does?

Left it with AJC's acc/pp/bp since I was just modifying it. I suppose I could be overestimating Ghost Curse, but I consider it to be a bit nasty. But I really liked the idea of being able to inflict it without kiling yourself(like AJC said... err... I think that was AJC).
you aren't overestimating it, it is powerful. it can kill at the end of the 3rd turn after use, but at the same time deals damage. this effectively makes it better than perish song, but to balance it out you have to take damage yourself.
i'm whole-heartedly against using curse effects unless you take damage due to their power.
 

Dogfish44

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Tomb Rage
Type: Ghost
Physical
30BP
15PP
100 Acc
Priority: 0
Effect: Hits a number of times equal to the number of unknown Pokémon on your opponent’s team. Can only be used after 3 turns.

Let me repost this move of mine, as I forgot to bold the last one. It is balanced, but scouting without overdoing it. This move would cause a lot of switches, as nothing likes a 150BP attack, and Substitute breaking. Also comes with a negative, allowing your opponent to make a switch before you launch. Even so, it could reveal a portion of the opponents team with ease. Also, when there no more pokemon you don't know, the move has done its job and becomes unusable.

Should I delete my other post with the other move? This one scouts a lot better.
 
Tomb Rage
Type: Ghost
Physical
30BP
15PP
100 Acc
Priority: 0
Effect: Hits a number of times equal to the number of unknown Pokémon on your opponent’s team. Can only be used after 3 turns.

Let me repost this move of mine, as I forgot to bold the last one. It is balanced, but scouting without overdoing it. This move would cause a lot of switches, as nothing likes a 150BP attack, and Substitute breaking. Also comes with a negative, allowing your opponent to make a switch before you launch. Even so, it could reveal a portion of the opponents team with ease. Also, when there no more pokemon you don't know, the move has done its job and becomes unusable.

Should I delete my other post with the other move? This one scouts a lot better.
first off, i'm not sure if there is anything in the programming that will tell which pokes have been out or not, since it could just be that when you pull them away it just saves their current state.
second off, this is a scout, which means that it should rarely be out on turn 4 or later. plus this isn't a scout move like you think it is bc it doesnt encourage switching or give any information. ppl will just focus on killing it before the fourth turn comes around.
 

Dogfish44

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Perhaps, Should I weaken it and make it use it only on the 2nd turn or later? I'd expect a scout to do more than stay in 1 turn.

Suppose the programming would be nasty, but when I battle I can always check my opponents pokemon. If DJD wouldn't be able to program it I'd be fine removing it completely.
 
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