How is quick feet defensive?
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CAP 8 CAP 8 - Part 4 - Style Bias Discussion
- Thread starter cyberzero
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Well considering the aspect (how it will look in a futur) and the typing I considered some stuff here is what I think of each of the Abilities.
Aftermath- Defensive Well, a defensive pokemon would be happy in my opinion to see that its life was worth something, maybe crippling with status then faint and damage a little.
Air Lock/Cloud Nine- Both Well, its not meant to be defensive or offensive, it just negates weather and aids both types. Perhaps since we have a Dragon type it can negate Hail and lower the accuracy to 70%
Anticipation- Both but I think defensive pokemon take more advantage of it, since walls like Blissey can anticipate a mixed set with SuperPower or something like that.
Battle Armor/Shell Armor- Defensive stalling and defensive pokemon hate more super efective hits than frail sweepers, lets face it they will die anyways, and defensive pokemon take more hits
Chlorophyll- Offensive the boost of speed clearly offers a Sweeper, however a Dragon/Electric type has no sense with Chlorophyll.
Color Change - Both the ability is tricky and versatile so it can aid on both types offensive and defensive however a Normal type would be better with that nature.
Compoundeyes- Offensive with a higher accuracy you are allowed to use more powerful moves that have low accuracy like Hydro Pump, Blizard, Thunder, etc
Damp- Defensive meant for doubles in my opinion, but blocking an explosion is always handy, anyways this should be kept for a Water pokemon
Early Bird- Defensive works well with Rest, so I would call it a Healing, Stalling or atleast Defensive pokemon.
Effect Spore-Defensive inflicting status is used alot more on defensive pokemon for a god purpose, inflict status as much as you can, an offensive won't use it quite as good as a defensive pokemon would, now again a Dragon/Electric with effect spore sounds awkward.
Flower Gift- Defensive Sort of the same as Effect spore.
Gluttony- Offensive that would make a perfect Belly Drum user, just look at Linoone, it makes a wonderful job thanks to Gluttony.
Hustle- Offensive, giving moves like Aerial Ace and Vital Throw that never miss along with Hustle sounds like a huge amount of power, however I dont find a Dragon benefitting from it.
Iron Fist- Offensive Go, Go, Go Thunderpunch! It is sure a neglected ability, and has marvelous effects, powering the Elemental Punches.
Leaf Guard - Defensive, curing status is better for defensive pokemon since they dont enjoy it that much. Anyways again a grass ability on a Dragon/Electric?
Magic Guard- Defensive I think there is no explanation needed
Marvel Scale- Defensive well, it boost defense so it sure calls out for a Defensive pokemon o take the boost.
Mold Breaker- Offensive well, there is one reason why I support this Ability, DIE TO EARTHQUAKE DAMN BRONZONG!!! sorry, I had to say it...
Poison Point -Defensive well, only Defensive pokemon will be able to take a hit to inlict the poison, so a Sweeper or offensive pokemon wont use it as much.
Quick Feet- Offensive again, as said in Chlorophyll the speed boost is best used by an offensive pokemon
Reckless- Offensive boosts power of recoil moves, so yeah...
Rock Head- Offensive moves like Double-Edge have huge power, eliminating the downfall of those attacks is great for any offensive pokemon
Rough Skin- Defensive read Poison Point please.
Shield Dust- Any?
Skill Link-Offensive I mainly see this move as a Sub breaker, using moves like Comet Punch and Rock Throw, hit the Sub and keep on hitting the foe, however Dragon/Electric seems like having no access to any of the multiple hitting moves in the game.
Solar Power- Offensive raising Speacil Attack is great, is like having Specs without getting stuck into one single move, however its again a Grass type Ability.
Soundproof- Both blocking Roar is good for stalling (defenseive) and Sweeping (offensive) pokemon since they can stay in batle and not loose their boosts
Static- Defensive same as Poison Point and Rough Sking, you need to be able to take a move.
Suction Cups- Any well, it would only work with a BP chain, not being able to be Roar'ed away is handy.
Synchronize- Defensive all of the pokemon with Synchronize are offensive, playing aroudn with it in a defensive pokemon would be nice.
Tangled Feet- Offensive sort of, needs no explanation
Thick Fat- Defensive I like the ability, first of all I must say I want the pokemon to be defensive since we don't have any defensive Dragon but Latias, with Thick Fat the Dragon/Electric can take Ice moves easier and almost no damge from Fire.
Tinted Lens- Offensive boosting power from not very effective moves is welcomed by offense.
Trace- Defensive since its used to wall some foes like Salamence, Heatran, Electivire, Gyarados, Arcanine, Jolteon, Vaporeon between others, however an offensive type coudl also benefit, but not as much as a defensive would.
Unburden- Offensive same as Chlorophyll, speed boost equal offense.
From all of the above, I my favorite three are Static, Iron Fist and Thick Fat lol @ a Fat Dragon!
Aftermath- Defensive Well, a defensive pokemon would be happy in my opinion to see that its life was worth something, maybe crippling with status then faint and damage a little.
Air Lock/Cloud Nine- Both Well, its not meant to be defensive or offensive, it just negates weather and aids both types. Perhaps since we have a Dragon type it can negate Hail and lower the accuracy to 70%
Anticipation- Both but I think defensive pokemon take more advantage of it, since walls like Blissey can anticipate a mixed set with SuperPower or something like that.
Battle Armor/Shell Armor- Defensive stalling and defensive pokemon hate more super efective hits than frail sweepers, lets face it they will die anyways, and defensive pokemon take more hits
Chlorophyll- Offensive the boost of speed clearly offers a Sweeper, however a Dragon/Electric type has no sense with Chlorophyll.
Color Change - Both the ability is tricky and versatile so it can aid on both types offensive and defensive however a Normal type would be better with that nature.
Compoundeyes- Offensive with a higher accuracy you are allowed to use more powerful moves that have low accuracy like Hydro Pump, Blizard, Thunder, etc
Damp- Defensive meant for doubles in my opinion, but blocking an explosion is always handy, anyways this should be kept for a Water pokemon
Early Bird- Defensive works well with Rest, so I would call it a Healing, Stalling or atleast Defensive pokemon.
Effect Spore-Defensive inflicting status is used alot more on defensive pokemon for a god purpose, inflict status as much as you can, an offensive won't use it quite as good as a defensive pokemon would, now again a Dragon/Electric with effect spore sounds awkward.
Flower Gift- Defensive Sort of the same as Effect spore.
Gluttony- Offensive that would make a perfect Belly Drum user, just look at Linoone, it makes a wonderful job thanks to Gluttony.
Hustle- Offensive, giving moves like Aerial Ace and Vital Throw that never miss along with Hustle sounds like a huge amount of power, however I dont find a Dragon benefitting from it.
Iron Fist- Offensive Go, Go, Go Thunderpunch! It is sure a neglected ability, and has marvelous effects, powering the Elemental Punches.
Leaf Guard - Defensive, curing status is better for defensive pokemon since they dont enjoy it that much. Anyways again a grass ability on a Dragon/Electric?
Magic Guard- Defensive I think there is no explanation needed
Marvel Scale- Defensive well, it boost defense so it sure calls out for a Defensive pokemon o take the boost.
Mold Breaker- Offensive well, there is one reason why I support this Ability, DIE TO EARTHQUAKE DAMN BRONZONG!!! sorry, I had to say it...
Poison Point -Defensive well, only Defensive pokemon will be able to take a hit to inlict the poison, so a Sweeper or offensive pokemon wont use it as much.
Quick Feet- Offensive again, as said in Chlorophyll the speed boost is best used by an offensive pokemon
Reckless- Offensive boosts power of recoil moves, so yeah...
Rock Head- Offensive moves like Double-Edge have huge power, eliminating the downfall of those attacks is great for any offensive pokemon
Rough Skin- Defensive read Poison Point please.
Shield Dust- Any?
Skill Link-Offensive I mainly see this move as a Sub breaker, using moves like Comet Punch and Rock Throw, hit the Sub and keep on hitting the foe, however Dragon/Electric seems like having no access to any of the multiple hitting moves in the game.
Solar Power- Offensive raising Speacil Attack is great, is like having Specs without getting stuck into one single move, however its again a Grass type Ability.
Soundproof- Both blocking Roar is good for stalling (defenseive) and Sweeping (offensive) pokemon since they can stay in batle and not loose their boosts
Static- Defensive same as Poison Point and Rough Sking, you need to be able to take a move.
Suction Cups- Any well, it would only work with a BP chain, not being able to be Roar'ed away is handy.
Synchronize- Defensive all of the pokemon with Synchronize are offensive, playing aroudn with it in a defensive pokemon would be nice.
Tangled Feet- Offensive sort of, needs no explanation
Thick Fat- Defensive I like the ability, first of all I must say I want the pokemon to be defensive since we don't have any defensive Dragon but Latias, with Thick Fat the Dragon/Electric can take Ice moves easier and almost no damge from Fire.
Tinted Lens- Offensive boosting power from not very effective moves is welcomed by offense.
Trace- Defensive since its used to wall some foes like Salamence, Heatran, Electivire, Gyarados, Arcanine, Jolteon, Vaporeon between others, however an offensive type coudl also benefit, but not as much as a defensive would.
Unburden- Offensive same as Chlorophyll, speed boost equal offense.
From all of the above, I my favorite three are Static, Iron Fist and Thick Fat lol @ a Fat Dragon!
Actually Magic Guard can go onto any style with little to no problem. Offensive a Pokemon no longer have to worry about LO recoil as well as recoil from moves like Double Edge. It also helps an offensive Pokemon by allow it to switch in more via protection from entry hazards.
Mold Breaker can honestly go Offensive or Defensive imo. I mean, for defensive purposes, it can use Fire moves on Heatran just for example, or Earthquake on Levitators if it has trouble hitting them. But, these also help Offensive sweepers. It could go either way. Right?
EDIT: Color Change should be placed in Defensive or Somewhat Defensive. If you're going to be switching in on a move from a Speced/Banded/Scarfed Pokemon, it allows for more survivability when it gets hit, so it forces a switch.
EDIT: Color Change should be placed in Defensive or Somewhat Defensive. If you're going to be switching in on a move from a Speced/Banded/Scarfed Pokemon, it allows for more survivability when it gets hit, so it forces a switch.
Offensive 20-infininity with Iron fist/tinted lens sound fun to me. I'd really like to see Iron fist used but electric/dragon doesn't really suit that...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Gothick_Togekiss
Actually Magic Guard can go onto any style with little to no problem. Offensive a Pokemon no longer have to worry about LO recoil as well as recoil from moves like Double Edge. It also helps an offensive Pokemon by allow it to switch in more via protection from entry hazards.
I must say, youa re totally right, I agree with you. Magic Guard has potential for an Offensive pokemon since it won't take damage from Life Orb, Hazards, Burn, Poison and in a Dragon pokemon the damage from confusion caused by Outrage, not so important but it might work.
Originally Posted by Fat Gothick_Togekiss
Actually Magic Guard can go onto any style with little to no problem. Offensive a Pokemon no longer have to worry about LO recoil as well as recoil from moves like Double Edge. It also helps an offensive Pokemon by allow it to switch in more via protection from entry hazards.
I must say, youa re totally right, I agree with you. Magic Guard has potential for an Offensive pokemon since it won't take damage from Life Orb, Hazards, Burn, Poison and in a Dragon pokemon the damage from confusion caused by Outrage, not so important but it might work.
Actually, Skill Link can go either way. Most people tend to set up Substitutes on bulky walls/tanks because they have weaker attacking stats, making it harder to break a Substitute. So Skill Link will solve that problem so the opponent can't set up.
On a side-note, it's Rock Blast, not Rock Throw.
Just for the record, Rock Throw is a regular attack. I believe you are thinking of Rock Blast.
And i'm agreeing it could go either way, not just offensive.
Electric/Dragon seems like a more offensive type, perhaps weather related? A Solar Powered/Weather killing Dragon would keep Kingdra in check and possibly help Sun teams. Maybe it could be a rain sweeper itself, since Electric gives it a STAB Thunder.
I would think that this is a fairly offensive niche Pokemon that could switch in and hurt something without getting 2HKO'd by major sweeping threats. Maybe a high speed stat and Chlorophyll or an anti-weather ability could help teams harm Kingdra, which is always a pain to KO.
It's typing alone in my opinion is enough to make it a fairly offensive Pokemon, as weaknesses to three of the most popular attacking types in the game (Ground, Dragon, and Ice) do not help it's walling ability. It would need insane stats (like Giratina does) to make up for these weaknesses, and in order to prevent it from being Uber, we would need to carefully map out the stats, with the word carefully being a major problem when such a large group of people are making this. I believe that a more offensive based style is more appropriate for this Pokemon.
I would think that this is a fairly offensive niche Pokemon that could switch in and hurt something without getting 2HKO'd by major sweeping threats. Maybe a high speed stat and Chlorophyll or an anti-weather ability could help teams harm Kingdra, which is always a pain to KO.
It's typing alone in my opinion is enough to make it a fairly offensive Pokemon, as weaknesses to three of the most popular attacking types in the game (Ground, Dragon, and Ice) do not help it's walling ability. It would need insane stats (like Giratina does) to make up for these weaknesses, and in order to prevent it from being Uber, we would need to carefully map out the stats, with the word carefully being a major problem when such a large group of people are making this. I believe that a more offensive based style is more appropriate for this Pokemon.
Did you read the OP? We're first figuring out what abilities go with what style bias.
That's moreorso the point. It'd make an a dangerous defensive threat.
I guess it can arguably be considered somewhat "overpowered", if it had good enough defenses and is bulky enough.
But that's not really the point of this thread... It's to determine weather the ability are offensive, or defensive, and the ability is easily defensive. If it was on an offensive Pokemon, who most likely will never be able to take as many hits, the effect would come in to play a lot less. It may come into play once and a while, but if it gets 1 hit KOd a lot, the ability would just be a "lucky once and a while". It's not really built for an offensive Pokemon as much as it is Defensive. Really, abilities that happen on chance, upon taking hits, are defensive abilities.
Anyway, I think Soundproof should also be considered Offensive.
Purely offensive Pokemon, which have terrible defenses on many occasions, probably won't be able to risk using a stat-upping move (or to switch in for that matter) without risking getting KOed. If they want more support than a hold item such as a Berry or Life Orb, they'll most likely get such from Baton Pass. Roar, which is I guess the most notable attack blocked by Soundproof, would neutralize Roar, which I'm pretty sure is the most common psuedo-hazing move, if my memory serves... While, I guess no Pokemon wants to be forced out, the ability sees greatest use on an offensive Pokemon.
An advantage over this than Suction Cups is block of Sing and Grasswhistle, among other random, though dramatically less common, attacks (though it loses resistance of Whilwind. Though I guess justification is that Electric/Dragon has Electric STAB, supereffecive on Skarmory. Electric, being more often Special-Based, hits Skarmory on it's weaker stat, so Skarmory may be a bit wary to switch in. Though if CAP8 is on the slower-side, Skarmory will be able to neutralize the Electric Weakness with Roost...). A Pokemon that can easily be 1-Hit KOed wouldn't exactly enjoy being asleep, and Soundproof blocks those two attacks, which are I guess not that common... But it blocks the threat on the off occaison that it does appear.
Flower Gift also ups Special Defense, making it just as well used defensively.
you've got Skill Link listed in offensive twice. Tinted Lens should be in somewhat offensive as well, because it could be used to substitute for lackluster attack. Compound Eyes raises accuracy right? In that case it could be used Defensively or Somewhat Defensively for status inducers. Aftermath could be on any thing really, whether it's slowly wearing the opponent down or attaking one final time at the end of a sweep and takes the other Pokemon down with him. Air Lock could also be offensive for something like a flail set.
Offensive 20 to infinity and Solar Power sound good to me.
Editing: Last post was harsh.
Are we really trying to sort abilities into certain style baises. That really seems absurd, there is really no good reason to do so, or if there is nothing of the sort has really been said. I'm completely opposed to limiting the options of abilities for certain styles, it's just basically turning this whole vote into a "Vote for _____ style, because I want ____ abilitiy." Honestly just seems like a better idea to seperate the abilities AFTER we have the style bias set.
Edit2: Deck if you're gonna be an arrogant asshole, please don't post that hypercritical crap in the thread and flame me over pm. Thanks.
Are we really trying to sort abilities into certain style baises. That really seems absurd, there is really no good reason to do so, or if there is nothing of the sort has really been said. I'm completely opposed to limiting the options of abilities for certain styles, it's just basically turning this whole vote into a "Vote for _____ style, because I want ____ abilitiy." Honestly just seems like a better idea to seperate the abilities AFTER we have the style bias set.
Edit2: Deck if you're gonna be an arrogant asshole, please don't post that hypercritical crap in the thread and flame me over pm. Thanks.
Remember guys, these lists are meant to be pretty inclusive. If an offensive Pokemon can make use of an ability, even if it's not as well as another Pokemon, it should be mentioned.
Abilities CAN be classified into multiple biases. There are many abilities that are already categorized as so, so please consider the effects and possibilities of giving the ability in question to any of the given biases.
For example, consider the effect that Trace would be able to have on an offensive Pokemon, a somewhat offensive Pokemon as well as a somewhat defensive or defensive Pokemon. On the offensive Pokemon, it could allow for a free turn to set up if it comes in on a Choiced Heatran's Fire Blast or if it Traces a Gyarados' Intimidate. Just as well, it would allow a bulkier Pokemon to go behind a sub or use a status, as it would be able to come in multiple times and make use of it.
Abilities CAN be classified into multiple biases. There are many abilities that are already categorized as so, so please consider the effects and possibilities of giving the ability in question to any of the given biases.
For example, consider the effect that Trace would be able to have on an offensive Pokemon, a somewhat offensive Pokemon as well as a somewhat defensive or defensive Pokemon. On the offensive Pokemon, it could allow for a free turn to set up if it comes in on a Choiced Heatran's Fire Blast or if it Traces a Gyarados' Intimidate. Just as well, it would allow a bulkier Pokemon to go behind a sub or use a status, as it would be able to come in multiple times and make use of it.
Some abilities I'd like to draw attention to in regards to Style Bias are:
Leaf Guard, I recommend should be placed on all the lists. It is the sunny equivalent of Hydration. For those of you who played the Manaphy suspect test on SU, you'll understand my point immediately. One of the main crippling things to a sweeper (and the majority of sunny Pokémon are sweepers) is status, and it can also be used to refresh the Pokémon and come in and in, like Manaphy on a rain team. It can also be used to get rid of Toxic on walls, or for a quick Rest-stall. However, I cannot see this going in any sort of sunny direction, but I just felt like it was worth mentioning =p
Tangled Feet should be on the Offensive list, because the only thing that really wants evasion other than a baton passer is something frail that needs free turns, and the turn can be made use of (not reliable better options blah blah blah).
Shield Dust should be on all the lists, or at least offensive. In the end it is more offensively-oriented things that are going to be bothered by secondary effects (other than like crucial flinches), because they don't have the turns to waste. While it can be somewhat situational, we've been through this. However, I argue that it is of use to defensive Pokémon, allowing them to evade being flinched to death and counter Pokémon which utilise secondary effects (Serene Gracers, even stuff like Gyarados with Waterfall).
While I think it's good for us to organise our thoughts, I am more inclined to agree with SoT slightly in that we shouldn't limit things, as most types CAN utilise each ability in different ways, ways we might only retrospectively realise as we move forward. For instance, a case can be made for Damp on set-up offensive Pokémon. Explosion is commonly used to get rid of set-ups that the player cannot otherwise stop (I'll use Metagross and CM Suicune as an example, as I was just working on a Suicune analysis so it's the first thing in my head). Yet Explosion is also used to get rid of walls, so Damp is equally viable on them. Most abilities are rather versatile if you look at them from various angles!
Sorry for my stilted and broken English. I am quite sleep-deprived orz
I would like to see an offensively-oriented CaP8 with Synchronise, Quick Feet, Cloud Nine, or Shield Dust, but it isn't the poll yet. Just putting that on the table.
Leaf Guard, I recommend should be placed on all the lists. It is the sunny equivalent of Hydration. For those of you who played the Manaphy suspect test on SU, you'll understand my point immediately. One of the main crippling things to a sweeper (and the majority of sunny Pokémon are sweepers) is status, and it can also be used to refresh the Pokémon and come in and in, like Manaphy on a rain team. It can also be used to get rid of Toxic on walls, or for a quick Rest-stall. However, I cannot see this going in any sort of sunny direction, but I just felt like it was worth mentioning =p
Tangled Feet should be on the Offensive list, because the only thing that really wants evasion other than a baton passer is something frail that needs free turns, and the turn can be made use of (not reliable better options blah blah blah).
Shield Dust should be on all the lists, or at least offensive. In the end it is more offensively-oriented things that are going to be bothered by secondary effects (other than like crucial flinches), because they don't have the turns to waste. While it can be somewhat situational, we've been through this. However, I argue that it is of use to defensive Pokémon, allowing them to evade being flinched to death and counter Pokémon which utilise secondary effects (Serene Gracers, even stuff like Gyarados with Waterfall).
While I think it's good for us to organise our thoughts, I am more inclined to agree with SoT slightly in that we shouldn't limit things, as most types CAN utilise each ability in different ways, ways we might only retrospectively realise as we move forward. For instance, a case can be made for Damp on set-up offensive Pokémon. Explosion is commonly used to get rid of set-ups that the player cannot otherwise stop (I'll use Metagross and CM Suicune as an example, as I was just working on a Suicune analysis so it's the first thing in my head). Yet Explosion is also used to get rid of walls, so Damp is equally viable on them. Most abilities are rather versatile if you look at them from various angles!
Sorry for my stilted and broken English. I am quite sleep-deprived orz
I would like to see an offensively-oriented CaP8 with Synchronise, Quick Feet, Cloud Nine, or Shield Dust, but it isn't the poll yet. Just putting that on the table.
Magic Guard was on the list, but this list changes along with that of the Concept Assessment. There, Deck Knight made a very good post about his concerns with a Pokemon that would be of the Electric/Dragon typing and what the possibilities of it would be with no recoil from Life Orb, entry hazards, status, or possibly STAB Volt Tackle without recoil. The argument was good enough to have it moved to Unallowed, where it was requested to go, and therefore it was edited out of the lists.
Just a correction; Leaf Guard doesn't remove status, only prevents it. If you're poisoned when the sun goes up, you'll still be poisoned.
Anyways, if we're trying to "narrow the list," I don't believe any sun related abilities should be defensive. Keeping sun active to just "sit there" (exaggeration) is rather pointless, as Sun abusers need to use every turn of sun they have (and hence, offensive). It's not that having the ability won't help every once in awhile, but it won't use the ability in itself.
I'm down with Shield Dust being on all lists. It really is a gigantic help to anything (and it even fits the anti-hax bill heh). Sweepers can more or less sweep without risking being flinched by a ScarfRachi and walls will appreciate total protection from Freeze and Special Defense drops from those moves like Shadow Ball.
If you're using Early Bird for quick Resting, you could probably put it under Somewhat Defensive as well as Defensive. I don't see it having much use on an Offensive pokemon if it's just going to get 2HKO'd.
Edit:A good use for Synchronize would probaby be on an Offensive or Somewhat Offensive pokemon helping a sweep. The opponent might think twice about burning this guy if they're just going to get burnt themselves (Of course, they'd probably just Rest it off or swich, so this might be a bit pointless). It could also help stop the odd Breloom from setting up a sub.
Edit 2:Reckless would be best with an Offensive pokemon because it probably won't be around long and simply has to do as much damage as it can.
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