EVOlution 1 - Part 2 - Pokémon Poll 3!

[hinode]

Philosophically, I'm more or less in agreement with Doug here. CAP is all about designing Pokemon with competitive goals first and foremost, not flavor or fanboy reasons, no matter how cool they are. To justify making an EVO instead of a CAP, it should show very clear, unambiguous relations with the original Pokemon, to the point that making a new one would be redundant. This doesn't mean it has to keep the exact same stat ratios, but it should be clearly recognizable as "based on Pokemon X that it evolves from".

Roselia->Roserade would be my idea model for an NU->OU revamp. The stat boosts are huge but very recognisably based on Roselia's. The relevant competitive movepool expansions basically boil down to Toxic Spikes, a bunch of new grass attacks, and special Sludge Bomb. It's again clearly based on Roselia's movepool, with Spikes foreshadowing the gen 4 introduction of Toxic Spikes. It even manages to keep its original typing and yet distinguish itself from all the other Grass/Poisons in existance.

The Houndoom supporters have consistently proposed a recognisable upgrade over the current model to achieve OU viability. The Farfetch'd supporters have, by and large, proposed a Fighting/Flying type (which Farfetch'd does not resemble flavorwise in the least btw, unless you can't distinguish between a swordfighter and a martial artist or boxer) with 2 120 power STAB moves that have nearly perfect coverage between them. This looks absolutely NOTHING like the Farfetch'd we have, not even remotely. What it looks like is two unrelated fanboy wet dreams awkwardly stitched together to meet CAP entry criteria, and that is most unappealing to the part of me who cares about CAP's identity.

If people were voting for Farfetch'd based on Deck Knight's Baton Pass-centric ideas, I'd be much less worried about fanboys running the asylum - for one thing, it's based on moves the duck actually gets now, not ones it might get. But the un-Farfetch'd like monstrosity that's getting bandwagoned now by poll jumpers is something that I'm fundamentally opposed to, which is why I voted Houndoom.

EDIT: btw, Farfetch'd gets Baton Pass from XD already.

 

[Hyra]

*finds it funny that Deck Knight is conservative even when making imaginary evolutions*

Yeah... no real way to sway either side, since one is for minimalist evolutions and the other is for more drastic changes. Houndoom exemplifies a Pokemon that needs very little to be OU (possibly high tier OU) while Farfetch is one that takes a lot of care to make work (Deck Knight's is basically a worse Mew).

 

[Deck Knight]

*finds it funny that Deck Knight is conservative even when making imaginary evolutions*

Yeah... no real way to sway either side, since one is for minimalist evolutions and the other is for more drastic changes. Houndoom exemplifies a Pokemon that needs very little to be OU (possibly high tier OU) while Farfetch is one that takes a lot of care to make work (Deck Knight's is basically a worse Mew).

You see a lot of Mews in OU, I take it? So far as I know nothing can pass a +2 boost in Attack, Speed, and SA. (There are of course 2/3's like Ambipom and Scizor, etc.)

 

[hinode]

Farfetch'd gets Wish as an event move apparantly, so that's one thing Mew can't do!

 

[Thorns]

Voted Farfetch'd. Houndoom is BL already, whereas Farfetch'd was NU in ADV and is still NU (UU for anal people) in DP, plus Farfetch'd has an interesting movepool. Note that: Farfetch'd's evolution can be Fighting/Flying but it doesn't need Close Combat! We should use the current moveset and maybe expand on it a little, but not to the point where they are two entirely different Pokemon.


Shame Banette didn't get this far, though.

 

[Infiltrator]

I wonder if we got to go through the alt check and some numb nuts made alts for Doom to win.

 

[Myriad]

It's still relatively close, I think Houndoom has a lot of potential but it does have a place in OU that seems like a cross between Hetaran and Weavile to a point... so it would be a very viable option which would be a good first pick for CAP; but I think Farfetch'd would be a more interesting option as we can do a little more to it without making it so ridiculously powerful it will dominate OU.

Houndoom, with it's BL stats would only take a little bit to fit into OU perfectly which makes it good for a first project, but Farfetch'd you could mess with it's stats a little more. I'm fairly indifferent to which wins all in all though.

 

[petrie911]

Looking into the idea of a critical-centric EVO for farfetch'd, with the ability Sniper, Farfy would have an increase in expected damage output by 67% over base power on high crit moves and a 50% increase in expected damage on regular moves. Super Luck only increases damage output by 50% over base in all cases, so Sniper would be a better ability, and could replace Keen Eye.

So, if we Heart Scaled the EVO Cross Chop and Leaf Blade (sharp Leek. need I say more?), it would fit with the critical theme, and give Farfy a grass move with 150 expected power and a fighting move with 133.3 expected power, as well as a 50% boost on nearly every move. The downside is that it's stuck with the Stick as an item, but if we gave it decent, but not great, stats, it could probably become useful in OU without being overpowered. Gives pokemon with battle/shell armor a reason for existing, and counters defensive stat-uppers.

 

[Lord Gloom]

haha look at me i voted farfetch'd and tied the vote

 

[Admiral_Stalfos19]

^And I ruined it via voting Farfetch'd

 

[Notty]

One of the things I keep seeing coming up is the question of "If Houndoom doesn't need an EVO, why isn't it OU?". I thought about it for a bit, then looked at the tier listings, and it came to me in two words. Stealth Rock.

The two OU Fire-types have a typing that negates their Stealth Rock weakness. On the CAP Server, even Pyroak has considerably less useage than Syclant (Mountaineer), Revenankh (SR-resist), and Fidgit (SR-resist).

Now take a look at BL. It's littered with Fire-types, the sole SR-neutral being Blaziken, who's just a worse Infernape.

Even with an evolution, a Fire/Dark Pokemon is going to have a hell of a time given Stealth Rock's omnipresence, especially with a fantastic spin-blocker like Revenankh floating around.

Of course, you can say the same thing about a Normal/Flying Farfetch'd EVO, but it's also true that Farfy has a much better chance of getting a type change EVO than Houndoom does.

 

[gorm]

wow

if it wasnt fetchd it had to be camerupt. im not interneted in another fast fire type that hates paralysis, i have nape and scarf/salac tran for that.

stab ground for tar is also great. houndoom evo is just more tar fodder. i really wanted campurt vs fetchd, but this isn't as interesting imo ;(


fetchd will be alot more fun than houndoom and neither of them are the *metagame shift* that a camerupt evo would bring

 

[oshada]

Voted Houndoom. It seems to me that Houndoom+ will have (and presently does, to an extent) nice niches in OU, while we'll have to CREATE niches for Farf to function, not to mention doing more work on stats and movepool. It's EVO after all, not CaP. I feel Houndoom's a good first choice.

 

[Drakhun]

I voted Farfy, because houndoom is at the cusp of OU, and if we forced it OU it would only be by forcing something out of the niche it would occupy. We already have fire stab special attackers in OU, there isn't a flying STAB utilizing attacker in OU. Heatran and Infernape outclass Houndoom in just about every way possible, to make houndoom OU it'd have to surpass those two, and would end up rather overpowered. Evolving 'Doom would be like evolving 'Zard.

 

[DT]

All it looks to me is were giving Farfy a STABed Close Combat/ Brave Bird, Staraptor anyone? I vote houndoom because i dont see farfetch'd bringing anything new to the metagame.

 

[X-Act]

I just have to say that if Farfetch'd wins, its evo's stats would be rather underwhelming to say the least. The increase of BST from a basic Pokemon to a final stage Pokemon having one stage is practically always between 125 to 175 (not considering stuff like Feebas or Magikarp). So basically, if it were to become OU, it would only do so either by a favourable change of type or by a favourable change of movepool (or both)... the latter of which we are very limited on.

That's if we're going to do this properly, which I hope we are.

 

[gorm]

deck knight i cant believe you used "he could be to broken" as an argument...

more like a houndoom evo could suck too easily? id ratehr have alot of breathing room to carve out a niche with fetchd than to supercharge a lame uu/bl.

sorry camerupt was teh only good choice since it was a zapdso coutner that could handle most shit and kill mamo/tar on the switch,not to mention scizor

plenty of potential for a chompless metagame saver atm... i almost wanna go back in time~

w/e im always right lets have fun with fetchd

its evo's stats would be rather underwhelming to say the least. The increase of BST from a basic Pokemon to a final stage Pokemon having one stage is practically always between 125 to 175 (not considering stuff like Feebas or Magikarp).

if gf isnt restricted by this idk why we should be. a decente niche come before consistency.. we want an ou pokemon.


camerupt woulda been so interesintg ;_;

 

[Bird]

Just went with Houndoom, because yeah, I'm supporting the 'This is not CaP6-principle". But to be honest, I think there were way more viable options in the previous polls.

 

[Objection]

Tennis just explained why Houndoom won't need Evo even if it gets EVO Tran will still be more Bulkyer than Doom and Heatran's SP.atk will still overpower Doom's Sp.atk and so the only Doom will Outclass tran in if he gets evo is speed.

Compare Blaziken and Infernape. Both fire/fighting, Blaziken's attacking stats are higher but Infernape's speed is higher. Add in the fact that they have considerably different movepools and suddenly the faster of the two fire/fighting types is OU, while the slower but stronger one is BL.
What is the difference between this comparison, and the comparison between Houndoom and Heatran?

 

[gorm]

houndoom is another fastish and frail fire immune but twave weak poke.. and dark isnt exactly a great stab right now (scizor, all the fighteres to kill tar bliss, tar himself)

 

[beej]

Deck Knight brought up a point that is very good a little while back, and Doug has also made this point: why is this evo going to be outclassed by Heatran? Because it's a Fire-type? I would like to point you in the direction of Infernape, who is an OU offensive Fire-type that is NOT outclassed by Heatran but is simply different. Houndoom has an interesting typing that allows it to switch in on most of Rotom's attacks (especially h) and ruin it with Pursuit/Dark Pulse. Despite its low defenses, Houndoom has good resists in Steel, Dark, Ghost and a Fire immunity that boosts the power of its own Fire.

However, due to various problems, Houndoom is actually used less in OU than many UUs. It should be UU, but it's broken down there. If it was so competitively viable it would be used more than it is. An evo doesn't have to be as confined to Houndoom's previous role as people seem to think, and it certainly doesn't have to be outclassed by Heatran. Those neat qualities of Houndoom's can easily be put to good use with an evo: don't you think you're underestimating the creativity of this community?

 

[Black Buddha]

Choosing Houndoom
Houndoom is a great pokemon with an OK movepool, stats are quite good offensively as well. Some upgrades in the movepool and slightly higher speed would make it a great OU poke.

 

[j_hunter]

To be honest, I'd rather the first EVO project was done on a Pokemon that wasn't already viable in the OU metagame. That way, the community can make all its mistakes with the first EVO and then get it right the next time. That's why I voted for Farfetch'd: I'd prefer for us to, well, not stuff it up, but "experiment" with the Bird rather than the dog.

By the way, I'm picturing the Farfetch'd EVO with Grass as a secondary type. I mean, it's holding a spring onion, right?

 

[C. Falcon]

Come on Houndoom.

Screw Bliss,Skarm,Cress.

Houndoom evo will (hopefully) actually be able to take them down...

 

[Hipmonlee]

I voted for farfetchd but that was before I knew what the poll was for. Please dont make a farfetch'd evo, he is too cool as he is. It is just sacreligion.

Dux is such a proud and noble pokemon, the idea of him evolving is just repugnant.

Have a nice day.