Favourite Fanwork Buff?

[MisogiKurakawa]

So, this is something I've been thinking about. There are a lot of Pokemon fanworks out there, between fangames like Reborn and Rejuvenation, and rom-hacks like Radical Red and Unbound, and one of the most common aspects to them is their balance changes. Occasionally this is in nerfing overly powerful mons to be more reasonable, but more often this is in reworking members of the franchise's ever-largening pool of underpowered party members into creatures actually worth something more than filling space in your PC. So I was curious, what's some of the balance changes you've seen in these games that you really liked?

To give an example which comes to mind for me, Inclement Emerald's idea of allowing the Eeveelutions to de-evolve and carry moves between each other was a genuinely ingenious expansion of Eevee's central concept that remedied the middling movepools the individual mons suffered from and transformed them into essentially the ultimate mix-and-match mon. It's just a really cool idea, IMO.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

Idk if this thread will get closed for wishlisting, but I'll bite: I remember a few years back there being an article on the Smog titled something to the effect of "Pokemon that would be better with different existing abilities" and one of their suggestions was giving Poison Heal to Snorlax.

Works on a thematic level, obviously, but it's a significant buff and the idea clearly caught on because I've seen a few metagames since give Snorlax Poison Heal as an ability. It's even got a page on the main site's dex's XY listing: https://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/snorlax/almost-any-ability/

In general I dislike a lot of fangames for often just going nuts with giving stuff moves/abilities with no apparent thought to sense or logic. Like I remember watching a video of a fangame set in the Orange Islands in which a Vaporeon used Ice Punch. How does that work? Like sure if you want to just go crazy and have anything learn anything, whatever, but for my tastes any changes should at least feel somewhat justified.

I have always been interested to play Pokemon Prism, though, which iirc changes the types of some moves (I believe Dizzy Punch is a Fairy move in that game) and gives several Pokemon moves which in the main series were event-only, like Growth for Eevee.

 

[khlaylav]

Drayano's fanworks have always been a standard bearer for the fangame genre, so I'll go with the classic: the Luxray line is Electric/Dark like they were always intended to be.

I'm also pleased when moves like Cut and Strength get changed into moves that are actually worth considering. I don't know exactly what fangame it's in, but Cut sometimes gets changed to Grass or Steel, and I appreciate that.

 

[Cobalt Empoleon]

My unpopular opinion is that I much prefer modifying mechanics surrounding Pokemon rather than directly buffing them (e.g. Reborn's expanded field effect system). I get severely alienated from my favourite Pokemon when I'm playing a game that gives them a bunch of buffs, because to me the flaws and 'oversights' are part of their charm.

 

[MisogiKurakawa]

My unpopular opinion is that I much prefer modifying mechanics surrounding Pokemon rather than directly buffing them (e.g. Reborn's expanded field effect system). I get severely alienated from my favourite Pokemon when I'm playing a game that gives them a bunch of buffs, because to me the flaws and 'oversights' are part of their charm.

That's an argument to be sure, but I would counter that it feels a lot better knowing the mons you are catching will actually be useful, and won't just be stuff collecting dust in your PC while you zero in on the mons which are actually worth using in battle.

 

[Cobalt Empoleon]

That's an argument to be sure, but I would counter that it feels a lot better knowing the mons you are catching will actually be useful, and won't just be stuff collecting dust in your PC while you zero in on the mons which are actually worth using in battle.

That's a problem that well-made fangames should be able to avoid with other design choices. A game like Pokemon Gaia is accessible enough that you can get through with 'bad' Pokemon, while still being a very polished and fun experience, whereas a game like Pokemon Reborn gives weaker Pokemon a chance to shine both in the early game and in specific battles that are suited to their unique traits.

Generally, while strength can be measured with come objectivity, I think 'usability' is in the eye of the beholder. For every fan game (except perhaps the most absurd Kaizo stuff), you can find someone doing a challenge run with the game's weakest Pokemon. Wormadam-Trash was an early-to-midgame MVP in my mono-Steel Reborn run (~9 badges), with occasional niche uses right through to the endgame.

 

[Bakugames]

I dunno, a lot of fangame changes feel more like appealing to fanbase gotchas (electric/dark luxray, electric/fighting zeraora) or just turning every mon into an ou-uber contender to the point that it feels too samey. For a fanbase that loves to shit on gamefreaks balancing, fangames have had some of the most disgusting power lines ive seen in my life while claiming to balance weak pokemon

 

[Samtendo09]

I dunno, a lot of fangame changes feel more like appealing to fanbase gotchas (electric/dark luxray, electric/fighting zeraora) or just turning every mon into an ou-uber contender to the point that it feels too samey. For a fanbase that loves to shit on gamefreaks balancing, fangames have had some of the most disgusting power lines ive seen in my life while claiming to balance weak pokemon

It doesn’t help that most fangames doesn’t bother to nerf some of the most excessively powerful Legendary + Mythcial Pokémon around, as well as Ultra Beasts + Paradox Pokémon. The “everyone-is-here” fangames are especially guilty of this issue, which may include overpowered Mega Evolutions.

Not to say that every Pokémon needs to be viable at all time, but keeping the dex limited, tightening the power gap between generations (and perhaps bringing back to Gen 4-5 in terms of power level, or similar feel to it) and diverges potentially overlapping Pokémon by having their own niches that the others cannot do better could help with balancing, and only if done carefully. Not every Pokémon would be viable, but it will allow the earlier-generation Pokémon to catch up with their later counterparts.

 

[MisogiKurakawa]

I dunno, a lot of fangame changes feel more like appealing to fanbase gotchas (electric/dark luxray, electric/fighting zeraora) or just turning every mon into an ou-uber contender to the point that it feels too samey. For a fanbase that loves to shit on gamefreaks balancing, fangames have had some of the most disgusting power lines ive seen in my life while claiming to balance weak pokemon

Oh, no doubt about that. Some of Radical Red's "fixes" are downright baffling in how they're presented (Mind Blown + Magic Guard Delphox, anyone?). But that's a lot I genuinely find really clever at the same time.

It doesn’t help that most fangames doesn’t bother to nerf some of the most excessively powerful Legendary + Mythcial Pokémon around, as well as Ultra Beasts + Paradox Pokémon. The “everyone-is-here” fangames are especially guilty of this issue, which may include overpowered Mega Evolutions.

Not to say that every Pokémon needs to be viable at all time, but keeping the dex limited, tightening the power gap between generations (and perhaps bringing back to Gen 4-5 in terms of power level, or similar feel to it) and diverges potentially overlapping Pokémon by having their own niches that the others cannot do better could help with balancing, and only if done carefully. Not every Pokémon would be viable, but it will allow the earlier-generation Pokémon to catch up with their later counterparts.

Yeah, over-stuffing the games is a huge issue, not helped by how they fail to account for region size. Good luck getting everything in Radical Red for example - the game completely fails to account for how small Kanto practically is, and just expects you to get 10 new mons practically every route/dungeon.

 

[bdt2002]

I believe one of you already mentioned the potential rule violation here, but... I mean, look at me. I can defend the rules, sure, but I also wouldn't say I'm in any place of authority to enforce them. Or at least not here. That being said, there is still something I wanted to mention that... kind of fits this thread? If you squint really, really hard, you could make an argument that the fan-favorite idea that Electivire should have been part Fighting-Type was at least partially inspired by the move Thunder Punch. Gen 2 tradebacks not withstanding, I only just recently learned that the elemental punches in Gen 1 were only learned by four Pokémon in total- Hitmonchan had all three moves, while Jynx, Electabuzz, and Magmar had access to Ice, Thunder, and Fire Punch respectively. I see two immediate takeaways from this. For one, if Hitmonchan never existed, those three moves very likely could have signature moves for each of their respective users. Secondly, while it would take until Generation 6 for the first true dual-typed attacking move to be created (that being Hawlucha's signature Flying Press), it seems all but officially confirmed that the elemental punches were created with the Fighting-Type in mind despite not being Fighting-Type attacks on their own.

The reason I mention Electivire specifically and not, say, Magmortar, is because last I checked, I haven't seen anyone saying Magmortar also should be a Fighting-Type. And besides... just look at it. (And then there's Jynx who just didn't get an evolution entirely, but that's a whole other can of Wurmple.)

 

[Castersvarog]

It’s a small one, but Renegade platinums rework of Rock climb is one of my favourite move changes because it just completely fixes Gen 4 team building and the need for an HM slaves

Half the problem with HMs in older games is that they’re never that good, nobody minds surf & waterfall, and debatably Fly if you have a physical flying type, because they’re actually useful moves you would have wanted to use.
But every other hm is either way to weak, those being Cut, Rock smash, Whirlpool, Flash, and Defog. Or it is outclassed by other options you already get, Strength and Rock climb with body slam and Return, and Dive with the previously mentioned Surf and waterfall.
So you slap them into an Hm slave to not bloat your Mons with useless moves but now you have to go to the pc constantly to get that Hm slave.

But turning Rock climb into a rock type move, whose BP is between Rock Slide and stone edge with 95% accuracy btw, now makes it into something you want to use as coverage or even as your STAB move, instead of slapping onto an HM slave you have to then lug around.

To play devils advocate, if all HMs that are required to finish the game were Surf tier you’d have see significantly less issues with HMs overall.

 

[Hugin]

To play devils advocate, if all HMs that are required to finish the game were Surf tier you’d have see significantly less issues with HMs overall.

Absolutely. That's been my complaint about the removal of HMs as field moves for the longest time. In-game, they CAN encourage things the games want(training a large+type diverse team, working with your mons in a non-combat context, putting stress on your teambuilding skills), but they just chose to axe the mechanic instead.

 

[Ironmage]

I could see there having been some reasoning to some HMs being weaker in the early games from an ingame balance perspective. They wanted there to be a good reason to use the one-off TMs over the infinite-use HMs. It then feels like the peak opportunity to have stronger HMs has passed since the games have cycled back to consumable TMs.

 

[MisogiKurakawa]

I could see there having been some reasoning to some HMs being weaker in the early games from an ingame balance perspective. They wanted there to be a good reason to use the one-off TMs over the infinite-use HMs. It then feels like the peak opportunity to have stronger HMs has passed since the games have cycled back to consumable TMs.

The biggest problem is you weren't allowed to remove the moves after teaching them. This was pretty cleanly done to prevent softlocking the game, but I'm still baffled as to why they never changed that in later games.

 

[Cobalt Empoleon]

It's a problem without a clean solution, because if you have HMs that are suboptimal in battle but easily overwritten, then players are indirectly encouraged to teach HM moves only when they specifically need to overcome an obstacle in the field, before immediately replacing them for the next battle. This sorta breaks the sense of immersion imo, while also creating an incredibly tedious gameplay loop whenever you're out exploring.

 

[Hugin]

I could see there having been some reasoning to some HMs being weaker in the early games from an ingame balance perspective. They wanted there to be a good reason to use the one-off TMs over the infinite-use HMs. It then feels like the peak opportunity to have stronger HMs has passed since the games have cycled back to consumable TMs.

The thing is, you don't have to make them actively bad(whirlpool, cut, rock smash) to achieve "non-broken early game, usable lategame". Quick Attack, Power-up Punch, Circle Throw, Flame Charge, there's plenty of moves which hit those two points. Mostly they're moves that require two seconds of thought to use well or that you have to build around, which is also something the games should encourage. Take an existing move that's roughly balanced early game and lategame, refluff/retype it, boom. There would still be people using HM mons, don't get me wrong, but it'd be less common if there was Rock-type Power-up Punch instead of useless Rock Smash, or Water Quick Attack+Surf instead of Waterfall+Surf.

 

[MisogiKurakawa]

The thing is, you don't have to make them actively bad(whirlpool, cut, rock smash) to achieve "non-broken early game, usable lategame". Quick Attack, Power-up Punch, Circle Throw, Flame Charge, there's plenty of moves which hit those two points. Mostly they're moves that require two seconds of thought to use well or that you have to build around, which is also something the games should encourage. Take an existing move that's roughly balanced early game and lategame, refluff/retype it, boom. There would still be people using HM mons, don't get me wrong, but it'd be less common if there was Rock-type Power-up Punch instead of useless Rock Smash, or Water Quick Attack+Surf instead of Waterfall+Surf.

Aqua Jet.

We have a Water Quick Attack. It's called Aqua Jet.

 

[Just A Seaking]

(I'm working on a HGSS romhack myself, so reading this thread is very insightful!)

Another thing that romhacks frequently do with HMs is allowing you to use the move, even if it's not learned by anyone in your party, so long as you have a compatible Pokemon with it. This is definitely a QoL decision I can get behind, and it leans into the idea that this is something your Pokemon is physically capable of doing. (sadly, it is also a feat that's kinda outside my hacking capabilities, but that's besides the point). Personally, I'm someone who just straight-up doesn't like HMs as a mechanic, but this is the best compromise I've observed personally between having HMs and nixing them outright.

Personally, I don't mind when romhacks make drastic changes to Pokemon, because ultimately it's an experience you just won't get from the main series. I think there's value in being meaningfully distinct from what you'll get from a mainline title. While I can subjectively disagree with some changes - for example, it's very common to make Flygon a Bug/Dragon type, which I dislike since the Ground type is pretty key to its flavor and lore - I can appreciate the fact that by using a Bug/Dragon Flygon, I'm ultimately getting a different experience than what I ordinarily would have in a regular Pokemon game. Of course, changes for the sake of changes are pointless - like, I'd definitely get a different experience out of Charizard being made into a Rock/Ghost type, but that doesn't mean it makes sense. It's a hard line to walk, though - what makes sense to you isn't going to make sense to other people, and if you go too far you'll kinda warp the identity of the original 'mon. This was actually put into perspective for me when I discussed some potential type changes in my own romhack with some friends - they (rightfully!) observed that I was often making silly changes to monotypes with some pretty flimsy justification just to make them unique. I'm sorry to the Just a Seaking of one week ago, but Fire/Electric Magmortar is dumb as hell no matter how you try to justify it.

Ultimately, what I like most in romhacks is really the convenience of it all. Version exclusives, trade evos, and other products of a bygone age are by-and-large just gone outright, HMs tend to be modified such that I usually don't have to teambuild around them, and various other QoL features just make the experience a lot smoother. Unfortunately, I'm an adult who's gotta pay the bills, so I appreciate that romhacks implement convenient stuff like grinding facilities and EV/IV checkers - it's a lot more respectful of my time. That's not to bash the people at Game Freak - ultimately, they're the ones who made the original game and assets to begin with - but I do really appreciate the presence of romhacks, even the simple ones that up the challenge a little bit and make life a bit easier.

 

[UberSkitty]

my fav fanwork buff is my imagination giving skitty base 121 in every stat. each 1 point higher than the supposed god arceus.

 

[KalosianPorygon]

Here are two of the most unusual buffs from fangames I can think of:
Pokémon Vintage White made an extremely ballsy move by changing Pidgeot's type to Electric/Flying. There are many other typing changes in this game, but this one is very unexpected and makes the OG generic bird less generic. Not only that, but its buffed Sp. Atk and access to No Guard and Focus Blast turns it into a Mega Pidgeot who shoots electricity and has a 101% accurate 120 BP Fighting-type move.

Pokémon Empyrean didn't change Furret's base low stats... but instead gives it two absurd forms:

1. a "Fusion" form with a higher BST than Mega Rayquaza; and
2. a "Gold" evolution with the game's exclusive Gold-type, a BST close to 600, and the Extreme Speed + Belly Drum combo.

 

[Ironmage]

I'm curious as to people's thoughts on fangames dropping the FWG triangle for starters. Personally, the standard types feel like they are chosen to have matchups between them that are intuitive to a new player, and as a result don't really need to exist in that form when making something that you only expect to be played by more serious fans.

 

[Hugin]

I'm curious as to people's thoughts on fangames dropping the FWG triangle for starters. Personally, the standard types feel like they are chosen to have matchups between them that are intuitive to a new player, and as a result don't really need to exist in that form when making something that you only expect to be played by more serious fans.

I think there's value to the tradition, and that FWG are designed to have interactions with a large chunk of the type chart, so it encourages you to start teambuilding quickly, but they're also generally strong types which keeps them reasonably easy to plan around.

Basically, they can get rid of it and be fine(Randos etc do so as well), but it should be considered carefully. If the player starts with Normal, then they can solo most of the game unless the designer is very careful. If they start with Bug or Rock, they're probably running into trouble early. FWG is easier for the player to play and for the designer to balance, just because we all have experience with them as starters.

 

[Castersvarog]

I'm curious as to people's thoughts on fangames dropping the FWG triangle for starters. Personally, the standard types feel like they are chosen to have matchups between them that are intuitive to a new player, and as a result don't really need to exist in that form when making something that you only expect to be played by more serious fans.

It’s an interesting idea, but not one I’ve experienced often enough to form an opinion on other than it being a neat idea but can only work in a fan game.
Like you said, it could only work with an older, veteran crowd because of its fan game status. GFW works the best for a reason because there’s just no other type combo, outside of Rock/Flying/Fighting, where one type is super effective/not very effective in one direction or the other.

 

[Cobalt Empoleon]

I'm curious as to people's thoughts on fangames dropping the FWG triangle for starters. Personally, the standard types feel like they are chosen to have matchups between them that are intuitive to a new player, and as a result don't really need to exist in that form when making something that you only expect to be played by more serious fans.

It's a perfectly reasonable choice to make, as long as it's not done purely for the sake of novelty. There's still plenty of unexplored design space for the classic FWG core, so it's not like changing the primary types is the only way to innovate, but if a dev has a good idea for a differently-typed trio (and they carefully consider how it'll affect the balance of the early gameplay) it can be a fun twist on the formula. One reason to stick to the classic setup is that if you're already making a game filled with original Pokemon designs, it can be nice to retain some familiar elements of the official games' gameplay so that veteran players have something to latch on to.

someone should make a fangame with an off-type starter trio that gain Fire/Water/Grass as secondary types in their final stages :0

 

[Ironmage]

It’s an interesting idea, but not one I’ve experienced often enough to form an opinion on other than it being a neat idea but can only work in a fan game.
Like you said, it could only work with an older, veteran crowd because of its fan game status. GFW works the best for a reason because there’s just no other type combo, outside of Rock/Flying/Fighting, where one type is super effective/not very effective in one direction or the other.

I was also able to find Fire/Steel/Rock and Poison/Grass/Ground.