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National Dex General Information and Simple Questions Thread
- Thread starter Pigeons
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This is more a question from a mechanics standpoint for National Dex, rather than one anyone can help me out on. It also only impacts National Dex AG. I'm also unsure if this is the right place to post this, whether this is intentional or just a mistake in development.
Phantom Force: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldexag-1085953394
Shadow Force: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldexag-1085954619
As you can see in these replays, Phantom Force and Shadow Force have varying mechanics. Phantom Force breaks Protect and not Max Guard, yet Shadow Force, a move that doesn't exist in Sword and Shield currently, has been allowed to bypass both Protect and Max Guard. Logically, neither should be able to break through Max Guard. Shadow Force and Phantom Force have always followed the same mechanics (unless I'm mistaken), and hence both should be protected against by Max Guard.
My question is essentially, is this an intended mechanic or was it overlooked? Can it please be fixed to be consistent?
Phantom Force: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldexag-1085953394
Shadow Force: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldexag-1085954619
As you can see in these replays, Phantom Force and Shadow Force have varying mechanics. Phantom Force breaks Protect and not Max Guard, yet Shadow Force, a move that doesn't exist in Sword and Shield currently, has been allowed to bypass both Protect and Max Guard. Logically, neither should be able to break through Max Guard. Shadow Force and Phantom Force have always followed the same mechanics (unless I'm mistaken), and hence both should be protected against by Max Guard.
My question is essentially, is this an intended mechanic or was it overlooked? Can it please be fixed to be consistent?
I’ve mentioned this several times in the bugs thread and the AG thread, still no changes.
Is there any particular reason I can't use Mystical Fire on Diancie? According this list here:
https://pastebin.com/kjtgxzw5
It seems like it should be a legal move whenever Diancie gets added to the game, be it through the DLCs or whatever. If there was a simple resource for this, feel free to mock me and point me in the right direction
Also since I didn't quite understand the post, are all Zygardes banned? Like if I wanna use Dog Zygarde with Aura Break, I have to play AG?
https://pastebin.com/kjtgxzw5
It seems like it should be a legal move whenever Diancie gets added to the game, be it through the DLCs or whatever. If there was a simple resource for this, feel free to mock me and point me in the right direction
Also since I didn't quite understand the post, are all Zygardes banned? Like if I wanna use Dog Zygarde with Aura Break, I have to play AG?
For the first question, we will not be implementing the Home TM/TR leaks due to their....weirdness (for example, we don’t know if these are the final learnsets and if they will appear in-game).
For the second question, only Zygarde-50% (and Zygarde-Complete) is banned from OU. Zygarde-10% can still be used in OU.
Thought of something.
With Gen 8’s new “breeding” mechanics of being able to pass Egg Moves to Pokémon of the same species while they are placed together in the Nursery, I feel as though this should apply to all Mons for consistency. For example, this would allow Skarmory to run Brave Bird and Counter at the same time, where it could not do so before, as well as unlock all sorts of combinations for past gen moves.
With Gen 8’s new “breeding” mechanics of being able to pass Egg Moves to Pokémon of the same species while they are placed together in the Nursery, I feel as though this should apply to all Mons for consistency. For example, this would allow Skarmory to run Brave Bird and Counter at the same time, where it could not do so before, as well as unlock all sorts of combinations for past gen moves.
Can we get an AG next best thing thread please?
I generally like NBT threads so maybe
No because we really don't want to work out how we'd be applying new rules to old Pokemon. That's really all there is to this decision, it's an intentional facet.
Does anyone have a super braindead AG HO team I can steal? I wanna click buttons and smash stuff. Idk how to build 
Funbot28
Banned deucer.
There is a multitude of factors involved in this, but first and foremost, the generation shift has not been to kind to Koko due to the nerf in power of the Electric Terrain boost coupled with the fact that Defog now removes terrains from the field, affecting the viability of both offensive and utility Defog sets respectively. The metagame itself also makes it hard for Koko to function, where threats such as Rotom-H, AV Tangrowth, and Ferrothorn are all commonly seen and pose a threat to Koko's viability as a result. Other misc. things such as Grimmsnarl being a better Screen setter which also outclasses Koko as HO Screen support mon also plays a role in it going to UR as well.
I hope this explains everything!
Any idea why Heatran is still not commonly using more offensive sets (eruption, firium z), despite Genesect being banned (the main reason to use a SpD set, as far as I know)?
By the way, is there a way to see what is under "other" in the moveset data? For NDOU 1630, Heatran has over 50% of its EV spreads under "other", so it doesn't help much.
By the way, is there a way to see what is under "other" in the moveset data? For NDOU 1630, Heatran has over 50% of its EV spreads under "other", so it doesn't help much.
Likely for taking on NP Rotom-Heat and SubToxic Aegislash, as Heatran was a common option for a FWG core with FiniTang. I don't think there's a way to see the "other", but given how wack the NatDex OU ladder can be, it's probably unlikely that most of what's in that section are moves actually worth using on Heatran.
Is there a way to play national dex doubles?
gen 7 is the closest you can get afaik
Is national dex Stabmons a thing? There is a thread but i dont see it on showdown
You can go and check the National Dex Other Metas Mega Thread if you want to find NDSTABmons and most other OMs for National Dex.
Also, will we be seeing a National Dex Ubers?
We already have AG, but we don’t have “AG but with more than 1 rule”. It’s a popular request and I don’t see why one can only exist (maybe on the main Showdown server, but there should not be a problem for having it in different servers and as it’s own thread)
Funbot28
Banned deucer.
Your assumptions are correct as there isn't even a ladder able format for National Dex UU. Expanding the formats is not on our radar as of now.
Sorry not to challenge you in a way, but if its meant to simulate a national dex, why are megas and z-moves still allowed? If all the mons were in gen 8 this wouldnt happen so I feel as if its not a very accurate "simulation". Im sure the vast majority would agree that dynamax is broken anyway so there's no need for that to come back. Are there any plans to ban/remove z-moves and mega pokemon as to *truly* simulate what a national dex meta would be like?
Megas and Z-moves being allowed is most likely because of “what if nothing was cut from Gen 7”. Correct me if I’m wrong.
I do get that I honestly do but like for example, gen 7, they nerfed prankster. They didnt keep prankster the same on showdown cuz the mechanics were changed. Sure theres no dex cut but the situation is the same. Changes to mechanics should always be included in the next gen and it seems like the coders or whoever is in charge of the natdex OU has been picking and choosing what to include and what not to include. Another example is how they've included that defog gets rid of terrains now but they still keep hidden power in the game?
It makes little sense to me
For Mega’s, it’s because they all have dex entries.
And for Z-moves, Ultra Necrozma has its own dex entry too.
It's extremely simple. "Defog gets rid of terrains" is a new mechanic. "Hidden Power is just gone" is obviously a removed mechanic. "Dark is immune to Prankster-boosted moves" is a new mechanic. "Mega Stones are just gone" is obviously a removed mechanic. You're trying to suggest a double-standard where there... really isn't one.
I know the general consensus seems to be that NatDex is a mess, and I can see where people get that idea (with AG in particular simply because it's the only case that tries to support all three once-per-battle mechanics), but this specific argument just doesn't work at all.
The rule is literally "everything follows Gen VIII, except when it doesn't exist, in which case it follows Gen VII." What about this is hard to get and what about this is contradicted by any of your examples?
Edit: it might be worth looking it another way. It sounds like you're seeing it as "all of the old things if they were in Gen VIII," but why not read it as "all of the new things if they were in Gen VII?"
If you take Gen VII is the starting point, then all of the existing rules make perfect sense. Defog removing terrains is an effect Gen VIII added, Corviknight is a Pokémon Gen VIII added, Room Service is an item Gen VIII added, Court Change is a move Gen VIII added, and Dynamax is a mechanic Gen VIII added. All of these Gen VIII features are additions... relative to Gen VII. And anything that doesn't fall under that category doesn't need to be changed at all.
The purpose of the format is not and never has been to guess "what it would really be like if Game Freak did it" - it's to combine the two in the most straightforward and all-encompassing manner possible, and it absolutely does succeed at that specific goal, however you feel about the state of the format itself.
For my own concession, I think the only part that I find questionable - on any objective level that relates to the actual goal of the format and not just my own idea of what's "broken" - is that, while moves that don't exist in Generation VII can't be used as Z-Moves, moves that don't exist in Generation VIII can be used as Max Moves. I think it would be reasonable to argue that the latter should also be impossible, simply because it does lead to guesswork (base power varies on a case-by-case basis for certain moves without a straightforward base power, and obviously there's the issue of Hidden Power's mechanics).
That said, the idea that Mega Evolution and Z-Moves contradict the stated goals of NatDex and somehow adding some cut Pokémon, mechanics and moves but not others is a more consistent and straightforward execution of those goals is not an idea that makes sense to me.
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I dont really know what you're saying 100%. Hidden power is a removed mechanic whereas defog removing terrains is just a changed mechanic yeah ok I get that. I can see where you're coming from.
Shouldn't all the gen 8 mechanics be followed in gen 8 national dex whether something was changed or removed? I see that as a double standard be it removing a feature or changing it.
I didnt actually know about megas having their own dex entries or necrozma having a dex entry about Z-moves but if we're to make a national dex feature to simulate what gen 8 would be like with a national dex, megas wouldn't be around regardless becuase Gamefreak decided to remove those 2 features this gen.
I thought the purpose of natdex was to include the removed pokemon not to include the removed features (I know theres some crossover with features and pokemon here but I hope you understand what I mean)
Like Tyranitar was allowed to be kept in the game and Gamefreak im sure consciously didnt put Tyranitarite in gen 8 so surely it would make sense that if the mons allowed via Pokemon Home were expanded to include even more mons, this would stand the same and they wouldnt suddenly be able to use megas or z-moves.
I also think this is partially because Gamefreak chose for dynamax to be the new feature for the gen and so maybe new G-max forms are to be released and whatnot. Megas and Z-moves arent the current battle features for gen 8 (I think the fact that the board has decided to ban dyna/gigantamax is a separate issue)
Just want to throw in, that I do see what you mean, the goal would be to include everything that was removed, as if it wasnt but GF obviously chose for megas and Z-moves to not be allowed in gen 8 because of balance (or laziness because the claim is that GF decided not to add natdex because they were short of staff and/or too lazy or reluctant to hire more staff)
EDIT: I am actually in favour of keeping megas because they DO seem like their own pokemon and made certain unviable mons, viable but for the sake of equality, I'm including megas in my argument to be removed since they're removed from gen 8 just as much as Z-moves are
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