Metagame np: Ubers Stage 0 - The Journey

[Edgar]

It would be interesting to see the potential outcome of a Gothitelle ban. However, personally, I think one of the main issues that Ubers has is directly tied to teambuilder and what a team is supposed to have. For instance, most of Dusk Mane's success is due to GeoXern being the volatile sweeper that it is and Necroleo being the only check that can justify doing something else besides checking it (other than Magearna but that's a bad Pokémon). Personally I would like to see how much value mons like Pdon, Necroleo and some others have in an environment where there isn't a Geomancy Xerneas to check. To put it simply, I think a lot of the issues in Ubers are directly linked to tb and Geo is the glue that holds most of those issues together.

Just my 2 cents

 

[Olliert]

Apologies if this post is somewhat redundant, but I would like to highlight a point that was touched on in the OP but not expanded on enough, as I believe this is the real crux of the problem with banning stuff in ubers.

If we are to treat ubers like the other tiers and ban pokemon/abilities to the point where we get a more fun and balanced metagame, my question would be: How, theoretically, is this different to OU? My understanding is that OU should be the first instance, after iteratively banning things, that we get a fun, balanced, non-overcentralized meta (etc. etc.). If we were to achieve this with ubers then I would ask why is this new ubers metagame that we have created not the OU one? What level of unbalance/overcentralization/unfairness is to be permitted in ubers that is not permitted in OU? I think this question needs to be answered very explicitly if ubers is to become a tier akin to the other, and if this style of banning is to become common practice.

 

[B R A I N L I C K E R]

The only game element in USM Ubers that sees some kind of common use that is even worth considering for a suspect is Goth. Support in regards to a suspect on Shadow Tag, P Don, Necrozma-DM, Geomancy, etc. is so absurd it's not worth addressing.

While I probably lean more toward the pro-ban side in regards to Goth, I can acknowledge that this thread doesn't really present strong argumentation based in Ubers tiering policy and game theory as to why such a ban is warranted. If you step outside the mindset of your typical Pokemon tiering parrot, you'll quickly realize why several of the arguments in this thread are weak. Think about the following questions in regards to a FPS, a fighter, a card game, or even a board game - Why would something be worth banning simply because it impacted the viability of a family of game elements? Why would a ban on a game element with little to no execution skill be warranted? Why would there be a ban on a game element that is able to cause a "boring" exchange for spectators? While such arguments aren't dismissed for all games in all circumstances, in the vast majority of situations they are. Why? Because they rarely address the heart of the matter and more often than not are the cries of a scrub. You're diagnosing symptoms rather than curing the disease.

The strongest arguments I can see being made for a Goth ban are able to support one or both of the following:
- Goth is able to take control of and alter the fundamental premise of teambuilding and / or play
- Goth decreases competitive edge by virtue of having little to no discrete and effective counter-play in teambuilding and / or play

There may be more good arguments out there, but I think most of the ones I've seen fall into one or both of these claims. These are not easy statements to prove conclusively, but I think there is probably more evidence to support them than to dismiss them. Banning often becomes a complicated issue for competitive games, but when it's warranted it at least needs to be based on good arguments.

I don’t think it’s worthwhile for discussion for you to just point blank call one side of a debate for Shadow Tag, GeoXern, P-Don etc ‘absurd’. Everyone is entitled an opinion and comments like yours are just unproductive.

Personally I have no opinion on any of the other suspects being proposed but the one I would definitely like to see is Geomancy being looked at. Like it or not, the entire tier is centralised around this move and for one it could be cool to see a meta without it.

 

[Terracotta]

Okay, this post is my two cents on the general discussion, and more importantly my take on gothitelle and it's pre evolution. Posting late because i wanted to see what opinions other members of the community held, but here we go.



I find usm very matchup based because of this shitty trap mon. This mon, which requires almost no skill to use, forces one to use obscure arcei forms such as darkceus, resulting in the team being weak to other threats like ho-oh, marshadow or even pdon. It also forces players into using 3/4 defoggers on stall which is redundant and sub-optimal, or risk losing the hazard war. In other words, the meta is actually a coinflip where you cannot be consistent and often lose at team preview. Also cores like goth+marsh/zyg(specifically goth+zyg), destroy 80% of the meta, and ironically, the best way to beat them is using the same core and try trapping their support arceus first. I saw comments trying to reason as to why goth isn't ‘broken’. If we get pedantic and get into the ‘definition’ of broken, this is probably true, but goth is very unhealthy, forcing you into using to sub-optimal mons, and limiting the use of mons like ferro/celes. So when you build, you either choose to autolose to goth teams, or lose to other things such as webs/ho. And this, for me, is the definition of an unhealthy mon. Although it's dead in a lot of matchups, you still have 5 slots that can pressure ho/bo.
For other threats, I can't see any problem without gothi. In my opinion for dusk mane, you could run things like leftovers skarmory, or Waterceus. Other supportceus could easily 1vs1 marsh and you could use stuff like helmet toxapex so I dont see them as a problem.
In the first post our tierleader clearly said the ban would not consider the overcentralisation but the benefits of a monster for the tier like for example primal groudon. This mon is amazing has 1000 sets and do all perfectly so yea lets ban it.
Oh wait, xerneas, kyogre and dusk mane exist too. This is what people should understand instead of just talking.
So if I wasn't clear enough the only mon in this format that has to be banned/suspected is gothi (sorry Orch). The rest are fine as it is.

Ps. I'll send you some $$$ if you quickban it Nayrz, gimme your PayPal.

 

[Funbot28]

Ye Goth seems to be the most obvious pick for a potential ban at the current moment due to how it perpetuates cheesy strats such as DD Waves Zyg +trapping or even Flatter shenanigans with Mega Gar which although not common, are pretty autopilot to use and extremely frustrating to face. I feel the decline of Goth recently has more to do with player integrity then it actually getting worse since neither player really does not wanna go through 50+ turns of Goth PP stalling especially in high level play, which turns players away from adding a Goth on their team imo even though it is still p effective in the current meta.

I feel the issue of trapping as a whole is perpetuated in the Ubers tier due to how much role compression is forced thanks to meta threats such as GeoXern, Pdon, and Necro-DM. Now whether or not we should consider to ban the aforementioned elements instead of Goth is definitely worth considering, I feel we should go the route with the least collateral impact, and suspecting / banning Gothitelle just does that.

 

[Hiker Clarence]

i usually dont post a lot on the forums here but i love ubers so i guess ill unload.

i know a lot of people are decrying the use of the word "uncompetitive" here but really i think its the best word to decide suspects going forward if we dont want to completely derail the tier and its purpose. its misused a lot but when people say "uncompetitive", it shouldnt be used as a synonym for "broken" or "overcentralizing". as other posters have said before, ubers is a special tier because it is broken by definition. it started as a banlist for standard and because ou is the most played and analyzed metagame it will in some ways always be a banlist for stuff thats busted in ou and below. when stuff has 150+ attacking stats and 200 bp z moves, you just cant decide suspects the same way you would for ou uu etc.

to understand what "uncompetitive" really means, look at the word. un +competitive. meaning it doesnt promote fair competition, competitive stratagies, or competitive behavior. just because primal groudon is on every team doesnt mean its uncompetitive. i dont know an easier mon to wear down in ubers. pdon is great yes and should be used on almost every team, but it doesnt hinder competitive play or strategy. player a has to use pdon tactically and figure out when to predict the giratina coming in and toxic on the switch or when to reveal stone edge when player b switches in ho oh. meanwhile player b has to figure out a game plan to weaken player a's groudon so that pogre can rock player a's world. theres strategy involved. you can preserve your groudon to win or wear down the other groudon to win. of course you dont need don to win, it just helps. not uncompetitive

geomancy. not uncompetitive. i dont think geo is even xerns best set. pdon is a soft check to xern and always has been but it still can serve as a roadblock if its healthy. obv any necrozma with moonlight is going to laugh at xern for days. magearna heart swaps and shreds with +2 fleur (and no magearna is not a bad mon in ubers at all. has enormous utility by checking xern and yveltal in one slot). mega luke can even get off a lot with bp. because pdon and necrozma are on so many teams, a lot of squads already have two xern checks to start. the fact that pdon has dropped roar for toxic shows how geo has fallen off so far. but as far as the competitive part, well, you can definitely still win with it. player a has to lay up spikes and find a way to lure wear down or burn necrozma to get their geo xern to win (if it has moonlight then good luck). player b has to keep pdon and necrozma (or magearna which is still not a bad mon) healthy to keep xern in line. again strategy. its not impossible for player a to win with xern. its not impossible for player b to keep xern from doing much damage to their team. not uncompetitive (and really i think scarf is xerns best set. and i think yveltal is a better scarfer than xern for a lot of teams).

now lets look at the goths. normally player a would be able to keep player b's threats in check with their support arceus, which can take hits and get rid of crippling spikes that wear down other defensive measures. but then player b gets in goth. what can player a do? its not like mega gengar, which is frail and can be crippled with judgement or earth power or stab from any other defensive mon it traps. goth on the other hand just pp stalls arceus for free, gets rid of it, and can be switched out 100 turns later to kill another defensive mon. as far as competitive play and behavior go, what strategy can player a employ to prevent goth from trapping their mon? the only thing they can do is mindlessly double out every other turn because thats the only way they can avoid getting trapped. this flustered behavior tips the scales extremely far in player b's favor. this is why goths are "uncompetitive" and other really good mons arent.

so please when we toss about the word "uncompetitive" lets use it correctly. think about what the word means before you say it. its not a bad word at all. when used correctly i think it perfectly sums up how the bans in ubers should go since i think its absolutely imperative that we keep them minimal.

i also dont think that potential bans on stuff like pdon geo etc are too "absurd" to discuss. i discussed two of them just now. i think the reasoning for them being banned is a tad, well, silly, but not talking about them just increases the misconceptions out there. if you think that banning them is absurd, explain why so the ubers players reading this thread can look at two sides of the coin and make up their own minds when they later suspect ladder and vote.

also magearna is still not a bad mon in ubers.

 

[Minority]

I don’t think it’s worthwhile for discussion for you to just point blank call one side of a debate for Shadow Tag, GeoXern, P-Don etc ‘absurd’. Everyone is entitled an opinion and comments like yours are just unproductive.

Personally I have no opinion on any of the other suspects being proposed but the one I would definitely like to see is Geomancy being looked at. Like it or not, the entire tier is centralised around this move and for one it could be cool to see a meta without it.

I don't think it's worthwhile discussion to spit baseless claims that are unsupported, especially coming from users who don't know the tier's meta at any degree of depth nor who have played it at a high level. You may be of the opinion that plastic bags taste good, and you may be entitled to such an opinion, but if you tell a chef that plastic bags should be a standard dish at their restaurant, don't be surprised when they say you're being absurd.

Personally I think a big reason why banning discussion in Ubers has been under lock and key for so long is because of this very thing - users who don't know anything about the tier or its policy whining to ban anything and everything. They subsequently back up their egregious claims with zero supporting evidence and actually expect their "opinions" to be taken seriously. Comments like these are unproductive and derail the discussion from what really matters.

The only thing potentially worth a suspect test in the near future is Goth and that's all there is to it. Several great players have already explain why. The status quo is that game elements are legal so if you have an argument to make then make it. Last I checked it's not Ubers tiering policy to ban things because "it could be cool to see a meta without it".

 

[Storm Eagle]

That element is Gothitelle / Gothorita. There have been many complaints around its effect on the metagame, crippling defensive teams to the point that they require excessive preparation just on the chance that someone brings these Pokemon to the match, or ignore preparation and simply lose when coming across them. Why Gothorita as well? With Eviolite, its bulk is so similar to Gothitelle that removing one leaves the problem unaddressed. They ruin the viability of would-be good additions to the metagame, and does so in a manner that lacks ideal counterplay as would be fitting for a balanced metagame with player interaction between both players. The removal of this element improves the overall look of the tier as defensive checks to Ubers' powerhouses grow in viability. It improves the spectator point of view as they no longer have to watch a Pokemon simply drain PP without much skill expression from either player. This most importantly helps to balance the metagame and gain a true assessment of Pokemon that could be seen as an overwhelming problem.

So that's how I currently stand. What about the rest of the community?

Personally I think the threat of Gothitelle is somewhat overblown. The problem is that it simply isn't used enough to be a considerable threat in teambuilding, although one thing I will agree with you on is that some teams, notably Stall ones, may just lose at team selection with Gothitelle. But other than Stall, there's hardly anything at all that Gothitelle can really switch in on because Ubers is and always has been a predominantly high offensive metagame. Even the more passive Pokemon like support Arceus forms can still leave a dent with Judgment and Gothitelle must always watch out for Z-Move variants of Arceus. Because of the small selection of Pokemon that Gothitelle can actually check and the fact that Gothitelle is easily revenge killed, I don't think it's presence is enough to be banworthy. As for Gothorita, I've never actually seen Gothorita even once but even though I've been in Top 500 with a Stall team multiple times during the SM/USUM meta. I believe Gothorita may be super niche and will only be used if Gothitelle gets banned, similar to how Diglett got used in SM OU when Dugtrio got banned.

But to be short and concise, Gothitelle checks a very niche amount of threats and while it's super good at doing it, it's slow Speed and middling physical Defense leaves it vulnerable to being revenge killed. Because of the high offensive nature of the Ubers meta, it's usage has been very low and even when it's used, there's no guarantee Gothitelle will be of any use because of the small amount of threats it can actually check, which is mostly limited to Support Arceus forms. Even most passive Pokemon have a way of checking Gothitelle. Blissey has Shed Shell. Lugia has Whirlwind for the Calm Mind sets. Deoxys-S has Taunt (assuming Deoxys-S isn't fainted in the first three turns). Giratina has Dragon Tail and can't be trapped to begin with. Gothitelle doesn't like taking Sunsteel Strikes from support Dusk Manes. Ferrothorn can beat a Calm Mind set using Leech Seed and Power Whip but is one of the few that's beaten by the PP Stall set. Anything else is just too low of usage or runs Shed Shell (e.g. Toxapex).

If you are implying you want STAG to be banned, then I'm personally uncertain about that. Mega Gengar is in no way overpowered and isn't even the most used Mega Evolution at the top of the ladder, being superceded by Mega Lucario and Mega Salamence at the top of the Ubers ladder. This is straight from the usage data. Mega Gengar is somewhat frail on it's physical Defense and it takes a turn to Mega Evolve which you can switch into a Gengar check and possibly even gain momentum by setting up.

It's difficult for me to say what is and isn't broken without a biased point of view, but I would still like to give my opinion regardless. I honestly think Geomancy is definitely one problem with the meta. It forces people to run a counter to it and because of it, Necrozma Dusk Mane ends up being splashed on every team in an attempt to counter it. People are also talking about banning Primal Groudon. Problem is, if you ban Primal Groudon, you must ban Primal Kyogre too, as even though many people complain about Primal Groudon, Primal Kyogre has a stunningly low amount of actual counters, Primal Groudon and Ferrothorn being the only ones I can actually think of. I suppose I can agree with Solganium Z being banned as it might be too significant of a threat on Double Dance teams.

Other than that, I'm actually uncertain what we could do with the meta. I think Dusk Mane is just too important of a Pokemon to get rid of and Ultra Necrozma is a legitimately healthy addition to the meta. Dusk Mane serves as a Xerneas counter, which more viable Steel types have long been needed, and Dusk Mane serves as the only Steel type that's not countered by Primal Groudon if it holds Ultranecrozium Z. Ultra Necrozma also gets a few other notable Pokemon like Rayquaza and Zygarde-C.

 

[1vs1s]

I think defensive and scarf yveltal are at is best right now in the metagame. scarf lets it check pokemon such as ultra-necrozma and necrozma-dusk mane and marshadow which are big threats. scarf also gains momentum with u-turn on its checks such as xerneas and magearna. defensive yveltal can pressure physical sweepers with foul play taunt and toxic but can also run sucker punch and defog over toxic if your team requires some hazard removal or the ability to sucker punch revenge kill the the threats mentioned earlier. i would like to know you all's thoughts on yveltal in the current metagame.

 

[Katy]

I think defensive and scarf yveltal are at is best right now in the metagame. scarf lets it check pokemon such as ultra-necrozma and necrozma-dusk mane and marshadow which are big threats. scarf also gains momentum with u-turn on its checks such as xerneas and magearna. defensive yveltal can pressure physical sweepers with foul play taunt and toxic but can also run sucker punch and defog over toxic if your team requires some hazard removal or the ability to sucker punch revenge kill the the threats mentioned earlier. i would like to know you all's thoughts on yveltal in the current metagame.

Hello,

you might be right with your post of how viable and great Yveltal right now is. But this is not the Thread for the Viability Rankings. Maybe you should discuss Yveltals versatility and viability in the current metagame here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...-ranking-thread-next-update-post-upl.3623296/

 

[iry]

Personally I think the threat of Gothitelle is somewhat overblown. The problem is that it simply isn't used enough to be a considerable threat in teambuilding, although one thing I will agree with you on is that some teams, notably Stall ones, may just lose at team selection with Gothitelle. But other than Stall, there's hardly anything at all that Gothitelle can really switch in on because Ubers is and always has been a predominantly high offensive metagame. Even the more passive Pokemon like support Arceus forms can still leave a dent with Judgment and Gothitelle must always watch out for Z-Move variants of Arceus. Because of the small selection of Pokemon that Gothitelle can actually check and the fact that Gothitelle is easily revenge killed, I don't think it's presence is enough to be banworthy. As for Gothorita, I've never actually seen Gothorita even once but even though I've been in Top 500 with a Stall team multiple times during the SM/USUM meta. I believe Gothorita may be super niche and will only be used if Gothitelle gets banned, similar to how Diglett got used in SM OU when Dugtrio got banned.

But to be short and concise, Gothitelle checks a very niche amount of threats and while it's super good at doing it, it's slow Speed and middling physical Defense leaves it vulnerable to being revenge killed. Because of the high offensive nature of the Ubers meta, it's usage has been very low and even when it's used, there's no guarantee Gothitelle will be of any use because of the small amount of threats it can actually check, which is mostly limited to Support Arceus forms. Even most passive Pokemon have a way of checking Gothitelle. Blissey has Shed Shell. Lugia has Whirlwind for the Calm Mind sets. Deoxys-S has Taunt (assuming Deoxys-S isn't fainted in the first three turns). Giratina has Dragon Tail and can't be trapped to begin with. Gothitelle doesn't like taking Sunsteel Strikes from support Dusk Manes. Ferrothorn can beat a Calm Mind set using Leech Seed and Power Whip but is one of the few that's beaten by the PP Stall set. Anything else is just too low of usage or runs Shed Shell (e.g. Toxapex).

Hi!! I would like to address a few of your points if you don't mind. Firstly, i would like to comment on your point of goth not being used enough to consider it while building. There is no team which can afford to be goth weak, because even though it's not used a lot, if you face it, you autolose to it which i think everyone agrees is a very bad choice. Secondly, goth can switch in on a lot of mons which aren't used on stall, such as a variety of support arcei/spdef necro/celesteela/ferro etcetera. Yes goth is very easily revenge killed. But after it's job is done, it's teammates can win. So being revenged easily is a non factor. Thirdly, z-move support arceus is sub optimal and only used specifically as a desperate measure to have a half chance at beating goth. Finally, cheese strats like goth+waves zygarde or flatter goth+sub psych up gengar take a fucking crap on multiple archetypes not named hyper offense, which makes the metagame extremely unhealthy.

I felt like responding to this post because I've heard many members of the community echo your opinions, so i hope my 2 cents will help you see the other point of view.

 

[Storm Eagle]

Hi!! I would like to address a few of your points if you don't mind. Firstly, i would like to comment on your point of goth not being used enough to consider it while building. There is no team which can afford to be goth weak, because even though it's not used a lot, if you face it, you autolose to it which i think everyone agrees is a very bad choice. Secondly, goth can switch in on a lot of mons which aren't used on stall, such as a variety of support arcei/spdef necro/celesteela/ferro etcetera. Yes goth is very easily revenge killed. But after it's job is done, it's teammates can win. So being revenged easily is a non factor. Thirdly, z-move support arceus is sub optimal and only used specifically as a desperate measure to have a half chance at beating goth. Finally, cheese strats like goth+waves zygarde or flatter goth+sub psych up gengar take a fucking crap on multiple archetypes not named hyper offense, which makes the metagame extremely unhealthy.

I felt like responding to this post because I've heard many members of the community echo your opinions, so i hope my 2 cents will help you see the other point of view.

Every team is weak to something. This is a fundamental thing with Pokemon. The problem with Goth that specifically because of it's low usage and niche use at that, many players simply don't put the effort into making many solid checks to Gothitelle as it's not a terribly common threat. It would be the equivalent of putting a Tapu Koko on an OU team solely to counter Pyukumuku because it has Unaware.

The thing is, I don't think any Ubers team aside from Stall teams are terribly weak to Gothitelle to begin with and there are still ways to outplay Gothitelle, namely double switching, and if you catch someone using Gothitelle off-guard, they lose a ton of momentum, and if you were to switch in something like a Swords Dance Dusk Mane, the opponent might even have lost at that point. Gothitelle is a really powerful Pokemon but the thing is, it just has no offensive presence and serves only to get rid of supporting Pokemon and unless Gothitelle paves the way for a sweeper to come in immediately after your support Pokemon faints, then the opponent is going to lose momentum.

Also, I have a thorough belief that cheese strats like the ones you mentioned, and the classic ones like FEAR flat out don't work at the higher ladder and the very few times it does work it takes a much higher amount of effort to actually get any sort of gains from Gothitelle.

Perhaps I'm not seeing it the same way you do, I just believe that Gothitelle, despite it's great strength, is way too uncommon and way too easily revenge killed to be ban worthy. Maybe the community sees different. I don't use it and I wouldn't care if it got suspected or even banned.

 

[Terracotta]

I am so sorry to explain you this but ladder means nothing in the first place and even more u seem to dont understand how gothi works,practically any team with a supportceus lose to gothi+mixed pdon or zyg or even bu marsh. Gothi traps your supportceus pp stall him until struggle, in the last 2 turns of struggle gothi switch and one of the affermentioned mons set for free. Maybe because you consider bad sets like calm mind but the only set we are talking about is pp stall aka charm confide taunt rest and it traps an infinity of mons like all supportceus ferrothron celesteela def dusk mane lugia if no dtail even tyranitar if support orso scarf yveltal that clicked oblivion wing so i dont see ur points bro and like i said gothitelle is not a stand alone mon is always paired with good ho response also if u explain me how you double when gothi teams have boths good and def synergy like if you double correctly and i can still go giratina 0/ pdon or whatever my check is if you dont ur arceus get trapped and i can just spam EZ game ggwp. The point is not being broken is being a terrible restriction in your teambuilder forcing u to lose vs a matchup alwayas. I am not talking about a bad matchup i am talking about an autolose at preview

 

[mags]

A lot of people might not see goth as uncompetitive or broken which is understandable. It has obviously lost it's consistency from sm in usm along with losing a ton of usage. Also understandable. Most of that is just because people have adapted to it making the meta less appealing for goth. What we do know is that goth still works exactly the same as before.. so if it does find a matchup where it has mons to prey on then it's just as potent as it was in sm. It's just the likelihood of it getting good matchups is less than before. Let's go into detail what happens in a game when goth gets at least 1 mon that is trappable(many teams still have at least one mon that is trappable).

Goth will proceed to switch into said mon making said mon unable to do anything that it actually wants to do. For example arceus can't defog or rocks or recover. Ferrothorn can't spikes. Spd Duskmane can't click sr or toxic. Plenty of mons can at least pressure goth where they aren't trapped if they catch goth on the switch which is fine but they still aren't able to do the things they need to do. Lets assume goth gets in safely. It proceeds to pp stall X mon. Once it's pp stall'd the goth user now has plenty of options to take advantage of a mon that is about to struggle to death. They can go to a defogger and defog away all the hazards. They can go to a setup mon and get a free setup oppurtunity. They can go to a mon that has been chipped heavily and proceed to heal up for example a supportceus that is low. If we take this into account goth ends up getting 1 kill, 1 free turn to do whatever you want, and it keeps goth in the back for being sacked. This is arguably stronger than mgar being able to dbond vs anything and trade 1v1. Now imagine teams that have more than 1 weak goth mon. It's pratically a loss if you get a goth even with 1 goth weak mon vs a good player nvm if you have a whole team that's weak to it. That mean's if you don't want to be handicapped in a goth matchup you just can't bring goth weak mons which is a huge restriction on the teambuilder. This isn't like how pdon forces people to bring 2 checks or how it makes some lesser viable mons completely unusable. These mons that goth is stopping people from using are very good mons which could be turned into an autoloss just on mu.

Personally I think the meta in usm is fine even with goth just because nobody has the balls to bring it. I think the way it is restricting teambuilding is also fine just because nobody even brings goth. I just believe in the rare cases that people do bring goth and happen to get mu it's more unfair than anything. In that situation Is it the players fault for using good mons that happen to be goth weak and they deserve to lose? Or does the goth player somehow deserve some credit for magically getting a golden situation where they have amazing matchup. It's kinda like batonpass where it's not that consistent but it can win some games with barely any skill needed while the player facing batonpass has to go back into his teambuilder after the match and take a decent team and change it so it doesn't lose to rare but mu dependant strategies. Up to you if you believe that is worthy of calling goth uncompetitive. I personally think that goth is actually broken when it gets the right matchup. Although it's clearly not broken when it doesn't get good matchup. (any mon can be good w right matchup but for example mgar will still need to be wielded right w good mu.. or pdon will still need to be played right w good mu.. and ygod will still need to be played right w good mu.. but goth is played like a system it takes no wielding or correct plays)

 

[Storm Eagle]

I am so sorry to explain you this but ladder means nothing in the first place and even more u seem to dont understand how gothi works,practically any team with a supportceus lose to gothi+mixed pdon or zyg or even bu marsh. Gothi traps your supportceus pp stall him until struggle, in the last 2 turns of struggle gothi switch and one of the affermentioned mons set for free. Maybe because you consider bad sets like calm mind but the only set we are talking about is pp stall aka charm confide taunt rest and it traps an infinity of mons like all supportceus ferrothron celesteela def dusk mane lugia if no dtail even tyranitar if support orso scarf yveltal that clicked oblivion wing so i dont see ur points bro and like i said gothitelle is not a stand alone mon is always paired with good ho response also if u explain me how you double when gothi teams have boths good and def synergy like if you double correctly and i can still go giratina 0/ pdon or whatever my check is if you dont ur arceus get trapped and i can just spam EZ game ggwp. The point is not being broken is being a terrible restriction in your teambuilder forcing u to lose vs a matchup alwayas. I am not talking about a bad matchup i am talking about an autolose at preview

If ladder didn't matter, then voting reqs don't matter either, do they? But of course voting reqs are for situations where something is going to get banned, and Gothitelle is likely going to get suspected in one way or another. And I've said it once, and I'll say it again, you can still lure in a Gothitelle by double switching, and just how any turn the opponent gets when you're Struggling is a free turn, likewise any turn you get against an opposing Gothitelle with a setup sweeper is also a free turn.

A lot of people might not see goth as uncompetitive or broken which is understandable. It has obviously lost it's consistency from sm in usm along with losing a ton of usage. Also understandable. Most of that is just because people have adapted to it making the meta less appealing for goth. What we do know is that goth still works exactly the same as before.. so if it does find a matchup where it has mons to prey on then it's just as potent as it was in sm. It's just the likelihood of it getting good matchups is less than before. Let's go into detail what happens in a game when goth gets at least 1 mon that is trappable(many teams still have at least one mon that is trappable).

Personally I think the meta in usm is fine even with goth just because nobody has the balls to bring it. I think the way it is restricting teambuilding is also fine just because nobody even brings goth. I just believe in the rare cases that people do bring goth and happen to get mu it's more unfair than anything. In that situation Is it the players fault for using good mons that happen to be goth weak and they deserve to lose? Or does the goth player somehow deserve some credit for magically getting a golden situation where they have amazing matchup. It's kinda like batonpass where it's not that consistent but it can win some games with barely any skill needed while the player facing batonpass has to go back into his teambuilder after the match and take a decent team and change it so it doesn't lose to rare but mu dependant strategies. Up to you if you believe that is worthy of calling goth uncompetitive. I personally think that goth is actually broken when it gets the right matchup. Although it's clearly not broken when it doesn't get good matchup. (any mon can be good w right matchup but for example mgar will still need to be wielded right w good mu.. or pdon will still need to be played right w good mu.. and ygod will still need to be played right w good mu.. but goth is played like a system it takes no wielding or correct plays)

This is the problem. Gothitelle isn't used because a lot of times you aren't going to be able to bring it in due to Ubers being predominantly highly Offensive. The fact that Gothitelle can check so much yet the Pokemon it checks are leaps and bounds higher in usage is proof that Gothitelle just isn't used enough to be a ban-worthy problem. If Gothitelle had higher usage then the stuff it would check would have adapted to it by now, e.g. Dragon Tail on Lugia. But it's not used enough and it hasn't been since Gen VI. People say you can lose at teambuilder but on the other hand there's no guarantee that even if you did run Gothitelle that you'll even be able to get any use out of it, and if you're going up against a High Offensive team you might as well be going 5v6.

At least with Pokemon like Primal Groudon, you're always going to get some use out of it, and Pokemon like Primal Groudon actually force you to have some checks and counters to them, whereas half of the entire tier checks Gothitelle in some way.

If I'm going to be perfectly honest, I can see the counterarguments and I can understand that Gothitelle in the right scenario is definitely uncompetitive in a way, just like how Skillkeys was last gen. If anything should happen, it should be a complex ban like how Swagger got one. Gothitelle is PU for a reason and if Gothitelle isn't running Charm then it's effectively garbage. I flat out do not see anything else happening. Banning STAG means Gengarite would get banned and I don't know if banning Mega Gengar who gets legitimately higher usage than Gothitelle while not being as annoying due to taking one turn to Mega Evolve is a good idea. Banning Gothitelle would also be stupid. Imagine if Klefki went to AG last gen because of Swagger? I realize AG didn't exist at that point but my point still stands. Klefki was the one who made Swagger really annoying and no other Pokemon was really running Swagger. Likewise, Gothitelle is the only one who is running PP Stall sets consisting of Charm and Confide. Gothitelle doesn't deserve to go to AG because it's a legitimately garbage Pokemon.

 

[mags]

Storm Eagle I tried to spell it out for you but I don't think you fully grasped it so I'll try again. Goth could have literally 0 usage on ladder, tour matches and friendlies and that wouldn't be a good argument for goth not to be banned. A mon can affect the meta just by being available even if it's not used. This is the case with goth. It's usage dropped because people adapted for it and yet goth will still have chances to get good matchup because people still bring goth weak mons just not as much. The affect it has on the meta is unhealthy. Goth having almost no usage and it affecting the meta this much without being used would be a better argument supporting goth to be banned than goth being ok for the meta. Sure goth can get a bad matchup and it's practically 5v6 but it can also get a good matchup where it's an autowin. Would you consider that a healthy mon? tldr whether it's used or not it still affects the meta in an unhealthy way and if it is used it makes the match a hit or miss for both players so even more unhealthy.

Complex bans are frowned upon on smogon and they wanna stay away from them as much as possible which is why banning goth instead of banning stag on goth would make the most sense. Idk the complications with allowing goth in lower tiers after its banned from ag but as far as I know it's not even that viable in pu soooo food for thought

 

[Storm Eagle]

Storm Eagle I tried to spell it out for you but I don't think you fully grasped it so I'll try again. Goth could have literally 0 usage on ladder, tour matches and friendlies and that wouldn't be a good argument for goth not to be banned. A mon can affect the meta just by being available even if it's not used. This is the case with goth. It's usage dropped because people adapted for it and yet goth will still have chances to get good matchup because people still bring goth weak mons just not as much. The affect it has on the meta is unhealthy. Goth having almost no usage and it affecting the meta this much without being used would be a better argument supporting goth to be banned than goth being ok for the meta. Sure goth can get a bad matchup and it's practically 5v6 but it can also get a good matchup where it's an autowin. Would you consider that a healthy mon? tldr whether it's used or not it still affects the meta in an unhealthy way and if it is used it makes the match a hit or miss for both players so even more unhealthy.

Complex bans are frowned upon on smogon and they wanna stay away from them as much as possible which is why banning goth instead of banning stag on goth would make the most sense. Idk the complications with allowing goth in lower tiers after its banned from ag but as far as I know it's not even that viable in pu soooo food for thought

I suppose the usage argument is fair. But I still don't understand why anyone would want to ban a Pokemon that runs a single, really cancerous threat. The reason I mentioned Klefki was because no one used Klefki in Ubers other than for uncompetitive strategies. This is no different with Gothitelle. And please do fill me in on this: Has it not been precedent for Smogon to complex ban uncompetitive strategies? E.g. Funbro, ComaTalk in certain OMs, and Skillkeys? That's the entire reason I mentioned a complex ban. Because I also thoroughly believe that Gothitelle is not on the same level as Mega Rayquaza and to even suggest it is silly. Mega Rayquaza has a good defensive ability, great Speed tier, priority, amazing offenses, capable of running both physical and mixed for unpredictability, and can hold an item on top of this. Gothitelle is just used to PP stall threats for an easy win. It's stats are horrible. It's Special Attack is mediocre at best. It's only good trait is it's ability and it's moveset to allow it to PP stall. I mentioned Calm Mind but I honestly regret doing so because Calm Mind isn't used any more so I personally apologize for that.

If you can at least respond to this problem, then I'll agree with you entirely.

 

[Terracotta]

I surely can bro not problem you put 2 different things on the same plan mray and gothi are on another planet but gothi is threatening in his way limiting your teambuilder a lot and like u said his ability is the problem cause there is no response except not using the monsters he traps and again as i said in the first post this forces urself into using subotpimal sets or team choises like support darkceus. Trapping isnt the same as gaining a free set cause i gain the free set and u also lose ur check to that mons instead if you double on my gothi (high risk) i can still go into my counter but what if with gothi i trapped your groundceus and in my free turn i go into pdon and click rock poolish or swords dance or i go zyg and click ddance? The stats in gothi case means nothing cause he does his job perfectly about the complex i dont see any difference tbh he is just unhealty your example of keys is also kinda bad cause skillkeys wasnt the only key set you can put swagger on the same level of hypnogar u cant ban the mon cause it can still do other things. Gothi cant so why to do a complex ban? Also dont feel me wrong but ladder is just a practice place where the good players just test team ideas or meme noone is taking the ladder seriously as you can see from the players that played upl you dont see the ladder heros (except kyogref4n but he is the exception we need) obviously all the players would try harder for a suspect but this is another story. Gothi is simply unhealty,with him around each game is like tossing a coin at team preview for win or lose

 

[Nixon73]

While I'm not entirely sure which way I'd vote on a Goth suspect, I'd like to give some pushback on the idea that it's an uncompetitive mon. Most arguments around Goth being broken bring up its matchup reliance and its ease of use, and both of these elements are greatly exaggerated in my opinion.

Gothitelle is indeed a heavily matchup reliant mon by itself, failing to do anything useful against most HO's and being capable of destroying stall and balance teams that don't properly prepare for it. However, what people aren't really bringing up is that the person using Goth needs to deal with the matchup reliance in their teambuilding, usually by overcompensating on the other end.
I remember when writing the Goth analysis that CKW wrote that he believed Goth would still be a cteam mon like it was before SM if it wasn't for LO Marshadow being introduced as a powerful anti-offense tool around the same time it got popular (probably true when it was just introduced and many existing offenses just lost to it). Goth lends no defensive support whatsoever to a team, so when building with it it feels impossible to justify adding more stallbreakers given the need to cram anti-offense mons to compensate while maintaining some form of a defensive backbone. Ubers is pretty offensive to begin with, too, so if you build this type of win-at-MU team you won't get past the 1400 ladder. Because of this, Goth carries a fairly heavy burden against stall and balance teams, as many Goth teams become simply unable to break a stall core if Goth takes enough chip, so the stall matchup isn't even all that advantageous.
If given advance notice that you're facing a stall team, Goth is completely broken. In a real Goth team that needs to prepare for a generic matchup, you won't be that much better off against a defensive team.

The idea that Goth is uncompetitively easy to use is just wrong imo. Yes, once you have it out against an Arceus-Water or whatever killing it doesn't require thought. However, Goth can't take a hit coming in against most of what it traps, and is too slow to really get a chance to rest after a misplay. Aside from getting it in through a double-switch, which is risky and requires skilled play, you're forced to build with a clunky mon like magearna/scizor/scarf ygod for voltswitch/uturn support. Even revenge killing doesn't get you a free switch for it, because its targets are passive mons that don't really kill anything, and in the rare situations that they do, a semi-skilled opponent would switch them out the last turn they kill something with toxic or weigh the pros and cons before using the coverage move. Gothitelle is perhaps most difficult as a teambuilding challenge (which is also a way skill factors into the game), but in actual gameplay it still requires good predictions and careful play to use properly. Even the least consequential errors with Goth would still give the opponent a completely free turn with the wallbreaker that scares it out, which can be devastating in many situations.
I would also disagree that Goth adds nothing to the tier. I sometimes see it as reminiscent of the spinblocking mechanic of old gens due to how it makes people hesitate to defog, which is a neat option in a gen where everything gets Defog.

This is not to say that Goth should stay in the tier, but I struggle to see that the arguments used to ban it under the current philosophy are convincing. If anything, its an interesting reason to at least ponder other tiering philosophies.
ESM's post on this thread is honestly the post I've agreed with most in my entire time in the ubers forum. The tier is overcrowded, and if Goth were banned as the start of a systematic attempt to make the tier less crowded by tackling the few elements that require their own isolated stops, such as GeoXern, the base experience of playing the tier as a distinctly ubers tier would remain, but it would allow for far more creative teambuilding than we have now.
In the original thread on the new tiering philosophy, Orch advocated for a tiering system based on fun, which if nothing else feels a lot more like the real issue people have with Goth. It's a pretty valid reason, too: it's probably the least noob-friendly element of the tier, and might keep the tier from growing as a result, not to mention this is meant to be a game and if people hate playing against Goth, that should be valid.
However, if the question is whether Goth is uncompetitive, I don't really think a ban is justified.

 

[LanstarA]

From what I'm reading, the big reason people want to ban Gothitelle/Gothorita is similar to other elements banned in Ubers, let alone all other official tiers right now: It relies too much on luck to function.

Think of why Swagger is banned: It creates situations of where confusion luck decides who wins the games.

Or the ability Moody. Overpowered? Well, if the stat increases went your way, yes it is.

Or OHKO moves (Sheer Cold, etc.): They can be OP - around 30% of the time.

I see switching out as the "Universal 5th attack" in Pokemon: A command that effects the game, much like using any other attack. If we look at it that way, Gothitelle's 5th move is a lot like a OHKO move on particular Pokemon: One successful switch, and a particular pokemon is automatically trapped, stalled, and removed. But you have to guess correctly for it to work, or else it might as well "miss the target," so to speak.

In this way, using Gothitelle is incredibly luck based in function. Is it too luck based? Perhaps so, as using it is like cheesing with this switch-in attack, much like cheesing opponents with the other banned mechanics.

 

[Freeroamer]

From what I'm reading, the big reason people want to ban Gothitelle/Gothorita is similar to other elements banned in Ubers, let alone all other official tiers right now: It relies too much on luck to function.

Think of why Swagger is banned: It creates situations of where confusion luck decides who wins the games.

Or the ability Moody. Overpowered? Well, if the stat increases went your way, yes it is.

Or OHKO moves (Sheer Cold, etc.): They can be OP - around 30% of the time.

I see switching out as the "Universal 5th attack" in Pokemon: A command that effects the game, much like using any other attack. If we look at it that way, Gothitelle's 5th move is a lot like a OHKO move on particular Pokemon: One successful switch, and a particular pokemon is automatically trapped, stalled, and removed. But you have to guess correctly for it to work, or else it might as well "miss the target," so to speak.

In this way, using Gothitelle is incredibly luck based in function. Is it too luck based? Perhaps so, as using it is like cheesing with this switch-in attack, much like cheesing opponents with the other banned mechanics.

The way Gothitelle plays is not at all luck based though? Gothitelle does not rely on small odds to trap the wide group of Pokemon within the tier it can potentially trap unless you count not getting crit multiple times in succession lol. “Guessing” when to switch it in is no argument either, this isn’t luck and could even be argued as a form of skill, knowing when to bring it in to execute your strategy unless you’re using Thousand Waves Zygarde in which case it’s a sure thing anyway. The only somewhat luck related element of Gothitelle is the matchup element, in which it is brought to a game or series hoping not to see a hyper offense matchup or similar where it will be useless, but compared to the game elements you describe they’re two completely different things. I think you should go back and re-read the thread, because most of the compelling arguments for a goth ban have been directed at the effect Gothitelle has on teambuilding as a whole, forcing otherwise suboptimal team choices on every team style that isn’t offense.

 

[Storm Eagle]

The way Gothitelle plays is not at all luck based though? Gothitelle does not rely on small odds to trap the wide group of Pokemon within the tier it can potentially trap unless you count not getting crit multiple times in succession lol. “Guessing” when to switch it in is no argument either, this isn’t luck and could even be argued as a form of skill, knowing when to bring it in to execute your strategy unless you’re using Thousand Waves Zygarde in which case it’s a sure thing anyway. The only somewhat luck related element of Gothitelle is the matchup element, in which it is brought to a game or series hoping not to see a hyper offense matchup or similar where it will be useless, but compared to the game elements you describe they’re two completely different things. I think you should go back and re-read the thread, because most of the compelling arguments for a goth ban have been directed at the effect Gothitelle has on teambuilding as a whole, forcing otherwise suboptimal team choices on every team style that isn’t offense.

He has the wrong idea. Swagger, OHKO moves, and Moody weren't just banned because of luck. They were banned because they were uncompetitive. A lot of stuff was banned across various ladders including ComaTalk and Funbro too. That's the key idea here. Gothitelle is uncompetitive with one of it's sets regarding Charm and Confide. No one used Slowbro in Ubers back then without Heal Pulse and Recycle. No one used Klefki in Ubers in Gen 6 without Swagger. No one is using Gothitelle in Ubers without Charm and Confide. The consistent thing with all of these three are that they are not viable in Ubers, they are using gimmick strategies to annoy the foe and/or get free wins, and they are using very niche sets that no one would realistically use. You don't see anyone using both Charm and Confide on their Pokemon in Ubers or any tier for that matter. The only Pokemon that uses Confide is Blissey and no Pokemon uses Charm in their moveset. I didn't mention Smeargle because Smeargle was legitimately viable in Ubers and Moody did have it's uses and was overpowered and uncompetitive.

This is why I call for a complex ban and not a suspect, nor do I call for a STAG ban because Mega Gengar has it's drawbacks without being annoying either.

 

[EternalSnowman]

He has the wrong idea. Swagger, OHKO moves, and Moody weren't just banned because of luck. They were banned because they were uncompetitive. That's the key idea here. Gothitelle is uncompetitive with one of it's sets regarding Charm and Confide. No one used Slowbro in Ubers back then without Heal Pulse and Recycle. No one used Klefki in Ubers in Gen 6 without Swagger. No one is using Gothitelle in Ubers without Charm and Confide. The consistent thing with all of these three are that they are not viable in Ubers, they are using gimmick strategies to annoy the foe and/or get free wins, and they are using very niche sets that no one would realistically use. You don't see anyone using both Charm and Confide on their Pokemon in Ubers or any tier for that matter. The only Pokemon that uses Confide is Blissey and no Pokemon uses Charm in their moveset. I didn't mention Smeargle because Smeargle was legitimately viable in Ubers and Moody did have it's uses and was overpowered and uncompetitive.

This is why I call for a complex ban and not a suspect, nor do I call for a STAG ban because Mega Gengar has it's drawbacks without being annoying either.

idt u have played enough gen 6 ubers bro, but klefki was quite common and viable without swagger, that's a big reason why swagger was banned and not keys, on top of the fact that a bunch of other mons could run a similar moveset as well, and we did see liepard at points abusing swagplay (along with keys). Infinite battle was a cross tier ban. Also the issue with goth isn't just tied to charm, bc there have been many sets running around with flatter + confide to boost for psych up gengar, which is also a thing and uncompetitive. I see no reason that Goth shouldn't be banned here (assuming the premise u argue is Charm > Goth) seeing as it has no other roles in the metagame and would it would be safe to just ban it.

 

[Storm Eagle]

idt u have played enough gen 6 ubers bro, but klefki was quite common and viable without swagger, that's a big reason why swagger was banned and not keys, on top of the fact that a bunch of other mons could run a similar moveset as well, and we did see liepard at points abusing swagplay (along with keys). Infinite battle was a cross tier ban. Also the issue with goth isn't just tied to charm, bc there have been many sets running around with flatter + confide to boost for psych up gengar, which is also a thing and uncompetitive. I see no reason that Goth shouldn't be banned here (assuming the premise u argue is Charm > Goth) seeing as it has no other roles in the metagame and would it would be safe to just ban it.

Klefki was quite common in XY Ubers and it was mostly Skillkeys until the ban. Even after that it's only real use was setting up hazards and crippling Xerneas and other fast threats with Thunder Wave. When ORAS launched Klefki completely plummeted and was replaced by Primal Groudon and countered by it in every way. Klefki found it's niche in the XY meta due to it's great defensive typing. That's why I said no one used Klefki because in the ORAS meta it lost it's place with the addition of Primal Groudon which completely and utterly counters it. Many people couldn't afford to set up hazards when PDon could switch in and start double dancing. Liepard was an objectively worse Pokemon in every regard and it's only saving grace was it's great Speed and access to STAB Foul Play. Even STAB Foul Play didn't mean much when Sablenite was released because Mega Sableye wasn't weak to key targets like EKiller Arceus, Mega Kangaskhan, or Mega Lucario.

Keys actually had use even post-Swagger ban, while Gothitelle... just doesn't have any use aside from stalling using uncompetitive strategies to bring in sweepers for an easy win like you said. Maybe it's just me but I just advocate for banning the strats rather than the Pokemon because it's been precedent for a very long time to complex ban uncompetitive strategies. I just don't think Gothitelle is that great of a Pokemon even with Shadow Tag and without the methods of PP stalling it's opponent to get free boosts for Mega Gengar like you said or waiting until the opponent struggles to bring in something like Mega Salamence, Gothitelle doesn't really do much and it's Calm Mind sets also suck nowadays and actually do give the opponent opportunities to revenge kill Gothitelle or even set up on it after it knocks out your passive Pokemon.

 

[EternalSnowman]

Klefki was quite common in XY Ubers and it was mostly Skillkeys until the ban. Even after that it's only real use was setting up hazards and crippling Xerneas and other fast threats with Thunder Wave. When ORAS launched Klefki completely plummeted and was replaced by Primal Groudon and countered by it in every way. Klefki found it's niche in the XY meta due to it's great defensive typing. That's why I said no one used Klefki because in the ORAS meta it lost it's place with the addition of Primal Groudon which completely and utterly counters it. Many people couldn't afford to set up hazards when PDon could switch in and start double dancing. Liepard was an objectively worse Pokemon in every regard and it's only saving grace was it's great Speed and access to STAB Foul Play. Even STAB Foul Play didn't mean much when Sablenite was released because Mega Sableye wasn't weak to key targets like EKiller Arceus, Mega Kangaskhan, or Mega Lucario.

Keys actually had use even post-Swagger ban, while Gothitelle... just doesn't have any use aside from stalling using uncompetitive strategies to bring in sweepers for an easy win like you said. Maybe it's just me but I just advocate for banning the strats rather than the Pokemon because it's been precedent for a very long time to complex ban uncompetitive strategies. I just don't think Gothitelle is that great of a Pokemon even with Shadow Tag and without the methods of PP stalling it's opponent to get free boosts for Mega Gengar like you said or waiting until the opponent struggles to bring in something like Mega Salamence, Gothitelle doesn't really do much and it's Calm Mind sets also suck nowadays and actually do give the opponent opportunities to revenge kill Gothitelle or even set up on it after it knocks out your passive Pokemon.

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ubers-premier-league-vi-usage-stats-discussion.3634325/
check the past upl

"never used" o wait, its 8th in usage? higher than yveltal and darkrai. maybe fact check before u start spouting shit. also lol cuz ur second argument doesnt even make sense, if u think goth has no use if certain strats get banned, then whats the difference between banning a strat that only goth can run and banning the mon itself?