Metagame np: Ubers Stage 0 - The Journey

[Storm Eagle]

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ubers-premier-league-vi-usage-stats-discussion.3634325/
check the past upl

"never used" o wait, its 8th in usage? higher than yveltal and darkrai. maybe fact check before u start spouting shit. also lol cuz ur second argument doesnt even make sense, if u think goth has no use if certain strats get banned, then whats the difference between banning a strat that only goth can run and banning the mon itself?

You're not going to get me to take you seriously if you talk to me with a condescending tone. Regardless, I don't keep up with recent UPLs and have based my arguments on first hand experience with the tier. I hate using UPLs or any sort of tournament as an argument since it represents so few players rather than the whole ladder. I also argue that using the UPLs as an argument is unfair considering it's been 4 years since ORAS has released and the metagame has greatly evolved since then. It's a simple fact that Klefki was not used as much as in that UPL during the ORAS meta, and as the ORAS meta was ending, Klefki was already dropping in usage and was not used at all when SM dropped.

Let's stop this irrelevant argument. This is about Gothitelle and Gothitelle only. I made my point about Klefki already. As for your final point, I argue against banning Gothitelle because it's a crap Pokemon who is only used with uncompetitive strategies. Banning Gothitelle would be admitting that it's overpowered when it's not, it's just used with uncompetitive strategies. Even with Shadow Tag it's still a terrible mon. Without Shadow Tag it struggles to get use even in ZU. I don't get why people don't understand this. Gothitelle is not a good Pokemon. Period. It utilizes uncompetitive strategies to get easy wins. If AG existed back in the XY meta, I guarantee people here would be calling for Klefki to have been banned too, which is why I initially mentioned it to begin with.

I've given my opinion. I'm not keen in repeating it forty times because it drowns out legitimate opinions of others. This will be my final post in this topic.

 

[LanstarA]

The way Gothitelle plays is not at all luck based though? Gothitelle does not rely on small odds to trap the wide group of Pokemon within the tier it can potentially trap unless you count not getting crit multiple times in succession lol. “Guessing” when to switch it in is no argument either, this isn’t luck and could even be argued as a form of skill, knowing when to bring it in to execute your strategy unless you’re using Thousand Waves Zygarde in which case it’s a sure thing anyway. The only somewhat luck related element of Gothitelle is the matchup element, in which it is brought to a game or series hoping not to see a hyper offense matchup or similar where it will be useless, but compared to the game elements you describe they’re two completely different things. I think you should go back and re-read the thread, because most of the compelling arguments for a goth ban have been directed at the effect Gothitelle has on teambuilding as a whole, forcing otherwise suboptimal team choices on every team style that isn’t offense.

Reread it, and now I understand that.

It looks like Gothitelle is the 'Boo' of the meta, then:

If players look at it and know the builds to counter it, it just sits there, and doesn't do much for a team. But when players start ignoring it when team building as it fades from usage, it creeps back up again to haunt the meta. Thus, through time it makes everyone have to look at it when team building, even though it then becomes a weak obstacle to work around. It then constrains team building as a result.

...What a grim situation this meta has.

 

[PokePoindexter]

Reading all the posts in this thread about Gothitelle and Primal Groudon, I'm getting flashbacks to OU suspecting Dugtrio back in February of last year and the occasional tirades calling for Landorus-T to be banned from that tier.

Now, I admit I don't have a whole lot of experience with Ubers (I predominantly play OU), but from the experience I do have, I don't find either Goth or PDon nearly as overkill as some of the posters here make them out to be. Goth is very easy to revenge kill, and it simply doesn't have the bulk needed to take all the nukes flying around the tier. As for PDon, while it is certainly very popular, still has its own share of checks and counters, and it's not particularly hard to find one to fit on a team.

I'm also curious as to what standards some of you use to determine how "broken" a Pokemon is, because it seems like I'm seeing some questionable reasons in this thread as to why they supposedly should be suspected. During the aforementioned Dug suspect, I saw a lot of posts that, for all it was worth, basically said "I'm pro-ban because I'd rather accuse it of being broken than find ways to adapt to it". And just about everyone who has ever bitched about Lando-T in OU makes at least one of the same three excuses: "I'm pro-ban because I don't like seeing it so much," "I'm pro-ban because it can do so many different things," or "I'm pro-ban because I think it's cool to hate on popular things". I think it's fair to say that high usage, versatility, being the new popular thing to hate on, and occasional players refusing to adapt to its existence are all pretty stupid reasons to ban something.

I can understand wanting to ban something if it 1) requires most players to go completely out of their way to find a certain Pokemon to beat it, 2) said Pokemon would only be used for the sole purpose of beating that one threat, and 3) said Pokemon would be pointless to use in the tier otherwise. An example from OU, while it was still legal there, would be Naganadel. In its case, 1) to beat it, players would have to run something bizarre like Weavile or Assault Vest Tyranitar, 2) getting past Naga was about the only reason to run either, and 3) Weavile is pretty lackluster in OU and AV Tyranitar is vastly outclassed by other, better sets. If you truly believe Goth or PDon fit that description in Ubers, I won't hold it against you to want to suspect them. I just don't see those reasons coming through in a handful of other posts on this thread, and I personally can't take those posts seriously.

Just something to think about.

 

[iry]

Goth is very easy to revenge kill, and it simply doesn't have the bulk needed to take all the nukes flying around the tier.

...............

bro have you read any post as to why people want it gone? i think you deadass didn't read a single post

 

[ahhh]

I'm really glad to see this thread. To me, this tier has been sick for a long time, maybe even since ORAS era. No doubt that there have to be some changes to be made. I sincerely ask any player who really cares about this tier to read my post seriously. If you can't agree with it and have some other suggestions, please also reply to me. I will try to improve mine and make it more persuasive.

The biggest problem of this tier is that the match-up factor plays a more and more important role in the game, which reveals that the meta is longing for changes. The better player cannot always win the game. It makes this tier more like a morra. That's the reason why good players in the tier go inactive and the tiering officials called out this tier.

For example, the Double Dance Primal Groudon may pose a huge threat to many teams. But scouting that set out is really risky, as the mixed set can easily cause a unacceptable damage to those checks, such as HP Ice to Zygrade, and Eruption/Overheat to Arceus-ground. The similar thing happens on Necrozma-DM now as well. Same as P-Groudon, it can do Swords Dance and Rock Polish. Then with the combination of Z-move, weakness policy, morning sun and Ultra-burst, it causes quite a headache when scouting the set and dealing with it properly.

What I am trying to argue here is that it's actually the boost moves with bulky high-offensive mons that gradually ruin the tier. It actually started back from Xerneas's Geomancy. These boost move(s) combinations (allowing a mon to boost both the atk/spa and speed stats) highly increase the possibility of a sweep, and in addition, all these three mons are too bulky to OHKO (not Xerneas anymore with the rise of Necrozma-DM but without Nec it's still a huge threat). Moreover, P-Groudon is immune to burn and Necrozma-DM is immune to the poison. P-Groudon can even run mixed set and with its high offensive stats together with the weather addition, making a sweep possible even with only one boost in speed when played correctly. Evidently, both the offensive and defensive measure against these threats are quite limited: they are just bulky enough to make it hard to check offensively / revenge kill and pose absurd pressure on the defensive side.

Back in ORAS, there was that infamous sample HO team: The main idea of this team is exactly using one suicide lead with a bunch of bulky boost sweepers. We've already seen how this reformed the meta. Now we even have more sweepers. Compared to the offensive side which is strengthened by Mega, Primal Reversion, and Z-move, the defensive side never gets a substantial upgrade equivalent to those offensive upgrade. There is not enough space for a team to cover so many threats at the same time now. The team-building options are strongly limited because of the sweeper threats. And the limitation of team building deteriorates the problem of match-up factor.

Then I'm going to discuss based on those three basic tier policies, which are broken, uncompetitive and unhealthy. Based on the definition of "uncompetitive", the match-up factor actually has to be considered. It does reduce the effect of player choice/interaction on the end result. I'll explain how to relieve its influence in the following. I also need to mention Goth here. It's really hard to say how this mon change this tier as it only has very low usage. Nonetheless, it's specifically aimed at the semi-stall/stall team and remove key component on those teams. It makes many games even more brainless with the most popular pp stall set.

There's no doubt that some mons are actually in a higher level based on its incredible strength, which can be claimed to be "broken" to some extent. However, in Uber tier, it's not that simple to ban a whole mon away from it. The tier itself will always form a kind of balance, while the balance in Uber is so vulnerable because of its shallow pokemon pool. It's easy for me to judge that P-Groudon is kinda broken. But roughly breaking the balance will make the minimal amount of bans unfeasible. The ban on P-Groudon will immediately cause the problem of Kyogre, which will trigger a chain reaction. Same with Necrozma-DM, the ban on it will make Geomancy Xerneas revive. Compared to ORAS, it even has more threat with Z-Geomancy.

There's another concerned problem about how to separate Uber from the other tiers. A tier with minimum bans was the criteria. However, AG, as a rising tier, also performs even fewer bans than Uber. But more bans will also bring the question about the difference from OU tier. My opinion here is this tier should try to maintain as many mons as we can while performing kinds of limitations to make it a more playable tier. We can easily foresee that there will be more pokemons joining this tier in the future. The situation can only become worse if we keep doing nothing.

So I have a strong willingness to ask for implementing a complex ban in the Uber tier now. I understand it's the tradition that we don't make complex bans, esp. the "overcomplex ones." However, it's still better to do these complex bans than watch this tier dying without doing anything or watch an endless chain reaction. The complex ban also won't cause any bad outcome. With proper use, it may even do a better job. Now comes my suggestion: ban Rock Polish on P-Groudon, ban Sword Dance on P-Groudon and Necrozma-DM, ban Goth. And the order of suspect can be RP and SD on P-Groudon, SD on Necrozma-DM and Goth respectively.

I know many of you don't consider P-Groudon and Necrozma-DM to be broken. It's true that either of them, compared to Mega-Rayquazza, is not that broken if we discussed the mon isolatedly. But the accumulation of those bulky mons with boost moves finally crushes the room of team building. That's also why I'm proposing complex bans but not simple bans. Basically, it's those boost moves make P-Groudon and Necrozma-DM become troubles. So the simplest way is just to get rid of the exact element that causes the problem. Without speed boost, the speed of P-Groudon won't be hard for the offensive team to handle anymore. Without attack boost, many walls depending on resistance/immunity will be able to deal with P-Groudon. I am not proposing a ban of speed boosting moves on Necrozma-DM because its base power is not as strong as P-Groudon. It only has a one-time usage Z-move that may cause some problem. Without attack boost, mons like Ho-oh, Zygarde, Ferrothorn, Giratina can become more reliable options for checks.

The bans proposed above will highly increase the team-building options. It offers more choices to check P-Groudon and Necrozma-DM. It would also free some mons that lack enough offensive pressure to deal with Goth. The players will be able to build a team with a more comprehensive coverage for the threats in the tier. With the ability to deal with more situation, it reduces the match-up factor in the game. Moreover, the styles of teams will increase and there will be more room for players to make decisions in the game, which increases the playability of the tier. Though the diversity is not under the consideration while discussing a ban, many mons will also truly benefit from the weakened sweeping threat in the meta. The other problem such as Geomancy or Sword Dance with Ultranecrozium Z can be remained for observing after the first three bans are decided.

Excuse my English and s/o fsk for grammar helps.

 

[loving1096]

complex ban is interesting. i think uber needs some huge change to help players deal with those huge bulky AND easily sweep pokemons in this tier. maybe the details can be discussed later but the idea is great.

 

[Grand Integrator]

I'm really glad to see this thread. To me, this tier has been sick for a long time, maybe even since ORAS era. No doubt that there have to be some changes to be made.

The biggest problem of this tier is that the match-up factor plays a more and more important role in the game, which reveals that the meta is longing for changes. The better player cannot always win the game. It makes this tier more like a morra. That's the reason why good players in the tier go inactive and the tiering officials called out this tier.

For example, the Double Dance Primal Groudon may pose a huge threat to many teams. But scouting that set out is really risky, as the mixed set can easily cause a unacceptable damage to those checks, such as HP Ice to Zygrade, and Eruption/Overheat to Arceus-ground. The similar thing happens on Necrozma now as well. Same as P-Groudon, it can do Swords Dance and Rock Polish. Then with the combination of Z-move, weakness policy, morning sun and Ultra-burst, it causes quite a headache when scouting the set and dealing with it properly.

What I am trying to argue here is that it's actually the boost moves with those bulky high-offensive mons that gradually ruin the tier. It actually started back from Xerneas's Geomancy. These boost move(s) combinations (allowing a mon to boost both the atk/spa and speed stats) highly increase the possibility of a sweep, and in addition, all these three mons are too bulky to OHKO (not Xerneas anymore with the rise of Necrozma-DM but without Nec it's still a huge threat). Moreover, P-Groudon is immune to burn and Necrozma-DM is immune to the poison. P-Groudon can even run mixed set and with its high offensive stats together with the weather addition, making a sweep possible even with only one boost in speed when played correctly. Evidently, both the offensive and defensive measure against these threats are quite limited: they are just bulky enough to make it hard to check offensively / revenge kill and pose absurd pressure on the defensive side.

Back in ORAS, there was that infamous sample HO team: The main idea of this team is exactly using one suicide lead with a bunch of bulky boost sweepers. We've already seen how this reformed the meta. Now we even have more sweepers. Compared to the offensive side which is strengthened by Mega, Primal Reversion, and Z-move, the defensive side never gets a substantial upgrade equivalent to those offensive upgrade. There is not enough space for a team to cover so many threats at the same time now. The team-building options are strongly limited because of the sweeper threats. And the limitation of team building deteriorates the problem of match-up factor.

Then I'm going to discuss based on those three basic tier policies, which are broken, uncompetitive and unhealthy. Based on the definition of "uncompetitive", the match-up factor actually has to be considered. It does reduce the effect of player choice/interaction on the end result. I'll explain how to relieve its influence in the following. I also need to mention Goth here. It's really hard to say how this mon change this tier as it only has very low usage. Nonetheless, it's specifically aimed at the semi-stall/stall team and remove key component on those teams. It makes many games even more brainless with the most popular pp stall set.

There's no doubt that some mons are actually in a higher level based on its incredible strength, which can be claimed to be "broken". However, in Uber tier, it's not that simple to ban a whole mon away from it. The tier itself will always form a kind of balance, while the balance in Uber is so vulnerable because of its shallow pokemon pool. It's easy for me to judge that P-Groudon is too broken. But roughly breaking the balance will make the minimal amount of bans unfeasible. The ban on P-Groudon will immediately cause the problem of Kyogre, which will trigger a chain reaction. Same with Necrozma, the ban on it will make Geomancy Xerneas revive. Compared to ORAS, it even has more threat with Z-Geomancy.

So I have a strong willingness to ask for implementing a complex ban in the Uber tier now. I understand it's the tradition that we don't make complex bans, esp. the "overcomplex ones." However, it's still better to do these complex bans than watch this tier dying without doing anything or watch an endless chain reaction. The complex ban also won't cause any bad outcome. With proper use, it may even do a better job. Now comes my suggestion: ban Rock Polish on P-Groudon, ban Sword Dance on P-Groudon and Necrozma-Dawn/Dusk, ban Goth. And the order of suspect can be RP and SD on P-Groudon, SD on Necrozma and Goth respectively.

Basically, it's those boost moves make P-Groudon and Necrozma broken. So the simplest way is just to get rid of the exact element that causes the problem. Without speed boost, the speed of P-Groudon won't be hard for the offensive team to handle anymore. Without attack boost, many walls depending on resistance/immunity will be able to deal with P-Groudon. I am not proposing a ban of speed boosting moves on Necrozma because its base power is not as strong as P-Groudon. It only has a one-time usage Z-move that may cause some problem. Without attack boost, mons like Ho-oh, Zygarde, Ferrothorn, Giratina can become more reliable options for checks.

The bans proposed above will highly increase the team-building options. It offers more choices to check P-Groudon and Necrozma. It would also free some mons that lack enough offensive pressure to deal with Goth. The players will be able to build a team with a more comprehensive coverage for the threats in the tier. With the ability to deal with more situation, it reduces the matchup factor in the game. Moreover, the styles of teams will increase and there will be more room for players to make decisions in the game, which increases the playability of the tier. Though the diversity is not under the consideration while discussing a ban, many mons will also truly benefit from the weakened sweeping threat in the meta. The other problem such as Geomancy can be remained for observing after the first three bans are decided.

Excuse my English and s/o fsk for grammar helps.

Quite frankly, this is a terrible idea and very indicative that you haven't really understood the purpose of this meta at all. Set up sweepers while dangerous are no where near being broken (the exception to that being Mega Rayquaza which is in AG for that reason). While Pokemon like Primal Groudon and DM Necrozma can potentially run two different set up moves that can be used to sweep, that is the point of Hyper Offense as a play style. These mons aren't broken nor do they make the game unhealthy. That's like saying under Psychic Terrain, Nasty Plot Deo-A is broken because it can potentially sweep a team lacking a good Psychic and BoltBeam Resist. In reality, there are a plethora of ways to deal with threatening set up sweepers like these and each team runs a certain check to do so. For example, Waterceus and Ho-Oh can beat Mixed Primal Groudon while Giratina-O can beat both variants (albeit with lack of recovery). Similarly, fast revenge killers can Scarf Yveltal can appropriately deal with most offensive variants of Necrozma. Now obviously, any mon with +2 in an offensive stat becomes threatening but no where near broken as you've claimed. Primal Groudon and DM Necrozma are the top two pokemon in this meta for a reason - their sheer versatility provides a sense of support and much needed structure that is central to maintaining balance in ubers.

 

[ahhh]

Quite frankly, this is a terrible idea and very indicative that you haven't really understood the purpose of this meta at all. Set up sweepers while dangerous are no where near being broken (the exception to that being Mega Rayquaza which is in AG for that reason). While Pokemon like Primal Groudon and DM Necrozma can potentially run two different set up moves that can be used to sweep, that is the point of Hyper Offense as a play style. These mons aren't broken nor do they make the game unhealthy. That's like saying under Psychic Terrain, Nasty Plot Deo-A is broken because it can potentially sweep a team lacking a good Psychic and BoltBeam Resist. In reality, there are a plethora of ways to deal with threatening set up sweepers like these and each team runs a certain check to do so. For example, Waterceus and Ho-Oh can beat Mixed Primal Groudon while Giratina-O can beat both variants (albeit with lack of recovery). Similarly, fast revenge killers can Scarf Yveltal can appropriately deal with most offensive variants of Necrozma. Now obviously, any mon with +2 in an offensive stat becomes threatening but no where near broken as you've claimed. Primal Groudon and DM Necrozma are the top two pokemon in this meta for a reason - their sheer versatility provides a sense of support and much needed structure that is central to maintaining balance in ubers.

I'm sorry that it may be you don't understand what I said. I'm not just focusing on certain kind of mons. Compared with Mega Rayquaza, both P-Groundon and Necrozma are obviously not that broken. However, It's undoubtedly that this tier has something going wrong. My opinion is that the accumulation of those bulky mons with boost moves will finally cause the harsh problem of matchup factor. It's true that any of those mons mentioned above can be well checked if you use two slots in your team against it. But the consequence is that you will lose some capability to deal with other kinds of threats. And it's not the Atk boost makes them broken solely. The potential of boosts in both Atk and Speed, along with even the threat of mixed set and the burst of Z-move, makes the problem. And your argument about these two mons' versatility and importance in maintaining balance in the tier exactly supports my proposal of complex bans. We can't easily throw them out of this tier but can use some kinds of method to limit them instead.

 

[Grand Integrator]

I'm sorry that it may be you don't understand what I said. I'm not just focusing on certain kind of mons. Compared with Mega Rayquaza, both P-Groundon and Necrozma are obviously not that broken. However, It's undoubtedly that this tier has something going wrong. My opinion is that the accumulation of those bulky mons with boost moves will finally cause the harsh problem of matchup factor. It's true that any of those mons mentioned above can be well checked if you use two slots in your team for it. But the consequence is that you lose part of the ability to deal with other kinds of threats. And it's not the Atk boost makes them broken solely. The potential of boosts in both Atk and Speed, along with even the threat of mixed set and the burst of Z-move, makes the problem. And your argument about these two mons' versatility and importance in maintaining balance in the tier exactly supports my proposal of complex bans. We can't easily throw them out of this tier but can use some kinds of method to limit them instead.

Again, I’ll stand by what I said. You clearly don’t understand this meta at all. Your reasoning is that any bulky mom (PDon and DM Necrozma) for example are ruining the meta because of their potent set up moves. I think this is absurd because a whole entire playstyle (Hyper Offense) utilizes set up sweepers to do some heavy damage and sweep. And while most HO mons are fast and frail (Bulky Offense mons tends to be more bulky), your argument is basically an attempt to invalidate any offensive playsyle. These mons are fine as they are and are central to this metagame.

 

[ahhh]

Again, I’ll stand by what I said. You clearly don’t understand this meta at all. Your reasoning is that any bulky mom (PDon and DM Necrozma) for example are ruining the meta because of their potent set up moves. I think this is absurd because a whole entire playstyle (Hyper Offense) utilizes set up sweepers to do some heavy damage and sweep. And while most HO mons are fast and frail (Bulky Offense mons tends to be more bulky), your argument is basically an attempt to invalidate any offensive playsyle. These mons are fine as they are and are central to this metagame.

Well. It's your opinion and I won't care about it. There're plenty of offensive mons and offensive playstyle in SM Uber. Don't let the current meta make you blind. If you've experienced the change from XY to ORAS, you can easily understand how P-Groundon totally reformed this tier. The metagame in ORAS was able to bear the growing limit of team building. But with the join of Z-move, Marshadow and now the Necrozma, it becomes nonsense. Actually, I won't really concerned about whether balance/stall teams perform well in the metagame. Keep in mind what I really focus on is to let the better players have a better chance to win a game. That's also what the playability concerns about.

 

[Grand Integrator]

Well. It's your opinion and I won't care about it. There're plenty of offensive mons and offensive playstyle in SM Uber. Don't let the current meta make you blind. If you've experienced the change from XY to ORAS, you can easily understand how P-Groundon totally reformed this tier. The metagame in ORAS was able to bear the growing limit of team building. But with the join of Z-move, Marshadow and now the Necrozma, it becomes nonsense. Actually, I won't really concerned about whether balance/stall teams perform well in the metagame. Keep in mind what I really focus on is to let the better players have a better chance to win a game. That's also what the playability concerns about.

The current meta is fine as it is but would benefit from a suspect test and potential ban of Gothitelle and possibly Gothorita. Primal Groudon has reformed the tier, yes. It serves as the most dominant mon in the meta not because it is obscenely powerful but because of how it can act as a soft check to Geomancy Xerneas and be extremely versatile at the same time. Now, the inclusion of Dusk Mane Necrozma gives Primal Groudon even more flexibility allowing it to become an even more central piece to the meta. Team building is somewhat limited, but not because of the reasons you mentioned. It is rather because of things like Goth that make defensive/stall teams have to run things like Pursuit CB Tyranitar and Shed Shell on certain passive mons. I repeat, Primal Groudon and DM Necrozma are fine as it is and are central to providing support against Geomancy Xerneas, an offensive presence and overall effectiveness that often helps secure games. I would seriously consider learning this meta before posting again, you need to really understand how it functions as whole and are blind to it because of lack of experience.

 

[PokePoindexter]

...............

bro have you read any post as to why people want it gone? i think you deadass didn't read a single post

I have, and I've also read the posts made by other members who have already addressed them. The nerve of me to suggest that I don't find Goth as overkill as you do, right?

 

[ahhh]

The current meta is fine as it is but would benefit from a suspect test and potential ban of Gothitelle and possibly Gothorita. Primal Groudon has reformed the tier, yes. It serves as the most dominant mon in the meta not because it is obscenely powerful but because of how it can act as a soft check to Geomancy Xerneas and be extremely versatile at the same time. Now, the inclusion of Dusk Mane Necrozma gives Primal Groudon even more flexibility allowing it to become an even more central piece to the meta. Team building is somewhat limited, but not because of the reasons you mentioned. It is rather because of things like Goth that make defensive/stall teams have to run things like Pursuit CB Tyranitar and Shed Shell on certain passive mons. I repeat, Primal Groudon and DM Necrozma are fine as it is and are central to providing support against Geomancy Xerneas, an offensive presence and overall effectiveness that often helps secure games. I would seriously consider learning this meta before posting again, you need to really understand how it functions as whole and are blind to it because of lack of experience.

You can't even show enough proof for your argument or explain your view clearly enough. What you are saying is just to emphasize that these two mons are central parts of the metagame and providing support against Xerneas. However, you can't disprove my argument. With the complex ban I proposed, they can still do a lot of jobs. Blaming Goth which has a really low usage for the whole responsibility of limiting of team building is quite funny. At last, I don't need others to comment on my game experience. I‘m confident in myself or I won't make that post.

 

[Zetalz]

I have, and I've also read the posts made by other members who have already addressed them. The nerve of me to suggest that I don't find Goth as overkill as you do, right?

He said that because you completely missed the mark on why people don't like Goth. It has nothing to do with it being this unkillable menace that can't be revenged, it's the teambuilding and match-up constraints. I really don't want to regurgitate what other (much better) people have already said so I'll just leave it at that.

As for other discussion on this, I stopped playing Ubers shortly after Marsh dropped (not because of him really, just general lack of interest) so I don't have a solid knowledge from experience, but through reading of posts and watching games I've kept up at least somewhat. Neither here nor there on Goth(s) but I can very easily see where people are coming from about it's uncompetitive-ness. Discussion of the effects of trapping in the meta(s) is certaintly not new. Pdon and Xern I would like to see more discussion on from those who are against them as I don't fully see their stance. Mostly Pdon, I've had my own gripes with Xern over the years so I can see that somewhat. Apologies if this post wasn't very interesting or in-depth as it could/should have been, not used to posting.

 

[hmsa2012]

Playing Ubers for 2 years, this is an actual great step towards redefining the Ubers tier. Ever since the announcement of adopting tiering policing back in November, I was curious as to how Ubers can take its first steps. Reading the posts, there is a bit of a mis-understating as to what is considered appropriate for suspect testing. Before all of the discussion, you have to take a step back as to what the policies should accomplish.

In short, the goal of Ubers is not diversity, but rather playability. Every tier runs by that statement, regardless of what meta is and will occur in the future. OU is the perfect example. Currently, the Clefable/Ferrothorn/Heatran core is dominating the tournament scene (especially in WCOP). You could subjectively argue that it makes the metagame stale, but its still playable. In Ubers, Primal Groundon, Necrozma-DM, and Yveltal are everywhere (with the former having 90% usage at its peak), yet Ubers is still playable (this opinion of mine digressed prior to the new tiering policy). Subjective reasoning is going to be the issue that Ubers will face in the near future; its even occurring now in this thread. People will have their own opinions has to what they considered broken and why this tier is "boring" or "lacking something". It happens everywhere. It's important to remember that you cannot think short term if a banning does occurs. You have to think about if it leads the metagame to right direction, and if there's anything else that needs to go as well. I do agree that team building in Ubers is a bit constricted due to the many threats that Uber currently has, but a great Ubers team will address its issues as much as it possibly can and compete either on the ladder or in tournaments (same for every other tier).

After playing on the ladder, as well as a couple tournaments, I resonate the idea of Gothitelle/Gothorita getting suspect-testing. Initially, I was thinking that Shadow Tag was an issue, but Mega-Gengar serves as an offensive trapper that can trap and eliminate walls depending on its moveset. Goths brings a somewhat mindless issue that becomes a serious problem that many in the thread have voiced their opinion. It is uncompetitive, thus worthy of a suspect test.

 

[Octaazacubane]

No offense, but why are the only ppl arguing against pdon, ppl who don’t actually play the tier?

Probably because people who don't like P-don don't play the tier that's infested with it?

 

[LucosDiCampos]

Probably because people who don't like P-don don't play the tier that's infested with it?

If you actually played the tier and used your brain you’d see that there’s absolutely no reason to ban it, besides it being extremely good. If you don’t like that, and ubers’ absolute minimal approach to banning, then stick with other tiers. Don’t just come crawling out of the woodwork now, saying stuff that makes it all the more obvious you’ve barely touched the tier.

 

[Cookees]

While I must preface that I'm not an Ubers expert, I am quite fond of this tier and want to be the devil's advocate and offer my perspective.

I feel a ban for Gothitelle seems a bit extreme. Firstly, let's examine its usage. I know we cannot entirely judge a Pokemon by its usage rate but Gothitelle does not even reach 1% in usage. Considering that M-Ray at its peak was at ~70% usage prior to its banishment, this contrast is quite significant. It's low usage indicates that it does not possess any tier-dominating trait. If it was a real proponent to boosting winrate, then you would expect its usage to correlate with that but it doesn't.

Now let's examine its utility. Ubers is a tier with so many broken elements that Gothitelle rarely finds an opportunity to capitalise on its trapping ability. Thus it's only real utility lies against stall, where they often run Shed Shell or have ghosts like M-Sableye or Giratina that can't be trapped in the first place. Furthermore, Gothitelle's unfortunate typing makes it vulnerable to pursuit users like Tyranitar / A-Muk, so with careful prediction, Gothitelle can become quite manageable.

The final point to consider is that Gothitelle is quite one-dimensional. Outside of its regular PP stalling tactics, it has limited options. Thus, against a hyper-offense team, Gothitelle is simply dead weight, making it an unattractive addition to the team.

I won't explore in detail the consequences of introducing bans to the Uber Tier, but I firmly believe this tier should remain as unregulated as possible, in accordance to its namesake 'Ubers'.

 

[Nayrz]

I'll be leaving this thread open until Friday night and then making a decision on our first suspect test. Any opinions that wish to be voiced should be done before then, because once the suspect is underway I will be moderating the discussion to be more focused on the test itself rather than the "open mic" discussion that has been ongoing in this thread.

 

[Exiline]

i didn't intend to post here at first but as the general consensus is leaning toward a gothitelle evolution line suspect, I got the feeling that I had to make a post!

To make it short I think this option is entirely outclassed by a shadow tag suspect. It really surprised me that you guys wouldn't care about the gengar issue (i'll call the shadow tag as a whole "gengar issue" even if it also includes the goth family to compare it with the "goth issue").

At first let's look at the relevant mons gothitelle can trap:
-Arceus-Ground (Can't hard switch on the CM one tho)
-Arceus-Water
-Arceus-Fairy
-Ferrothorn
-Toxapex (most runs shed shell anyway)
-lugia

the first thing that comes to mind is that gengar is also trapping all these mons bar groundceus.
But while goth usually become useless after trapping that one target that can even be unused by the gothitelle user's opponent, gengar job isn't limited to only that, on the trapping side, is also one if not the best revenge killer of the tier, being able to trapkill thing like:
-weakened duskmane
-xerneas
-ultra necrozma
-lucario
....
gengar also does well against literally all the meta with its great coverage and and it's 170 SpAtk Base stat which is no laughing matter even compared to those ubers legendaries. which allows it to threaten things that are at first not weak against the 3 eyed ghost like yveltal (offensive variant being 2HKO'ed by sludge wave without SR and defensive variant being 2HKO'ed after stealth rock) or groudon/kyogre (max HP/SpDef Groudon taking a good 30-36% from shadow ball), gengar can even run tech strat like icy wind or thunder to bait more mon like Zygarde/Salamence or Kyogre/Ho-oH.
My point is that gengar role isn't limited to only trapping but it can also be considered as a powerful sweeper like Marshadow. And even if we're only looking at the trapping issue, gengar still has a larger targets panel.

Adding to gengar versability, I think it's pretty worth to indicate that gengar can easily take a 1v1 trade with destiny bond even in the worst negative match up which is actually pretty insane.

To support my opinion i'd like to show you this stat from the last UPL:
| 10 | Gengar | 31 | 20.95% | 67.74%
We can also back it up with the two mons that pair the best with gengar:
| 5 | Zygarde | 48 | 32.43% | 64.58% |
| 11 | Marshadow | 28 | 18.92% | 60.71%

I think these stats speak for themselves, as every good usm players know the gengar-zygarde core is destroying the whole meta. Hence why it could be judged suspect worthy.

Meanwhile...:
| 25 | Gothitelle | 7 | 4.73% | 28.57% |

Although I must admit that the Gothitelle/Marshadow and Gothitelle/Zygarde cores are decent, gothitelle seems to really struggle in the current metagame (and a meta being adapted to a certain mon isn't a valid argument ; the meta also adapted to offensive zygarde, yet it still reached a 64+% winrate in one of the most prestigious ubers tournament) because the meta is way too offensive right now and we reached some insane powercreep with USM arrival (ban geomancy/red orb/necrozma all at once cough cough) which kinda invalidates gothitelle pros.

I think gothitelle is still the main target of a majority of ubers player because of how frustrating it can be to face ; getting pp stalled without the possibility of doing anything being awfully boring and as i already stated pretty frustrated, adding to the fact that gothitelle is considered as pretty brainless while gengar is considered by some like the most skill-reliant mon of the tier (which even if it were the case shouldn't ever be a valid argument to not ban or to ban something).

We're reaching the end of my post here so i'd like to say gothitelle isn't what is ruining ubers nor the main cause of all the match-up issue currently happening in ubers, but even if this post probably sounded like saying gothitelle is bad, that was not the aim of this post but rather to adress the tier players that if a suspect is needed, it would be better to suspect Shadow Tag as a whole instead of only suspecting the gothitelle evolution line.
I know there will be a collateral damage in the presence of Wobbuffet (and it's prior evolution) but I think it's still the right choice as wobb got kinda irrelevant.

 

[iry]

At first let's look at the relevant mons gothitelle can trap:
-Arceus-Ground (Can't hard switch on the CM one tho)
-Arceus-Water
-Arceus-Fairy
-Ferrothorn
-Toxapex (most runs shed shell anyway)
-lugia

the first thing that comes to mind is that gengar is also trapping all these mons bar groundceus.

You missed half the list though.
defensive necro/celesteela/scarf xern/choice oblivion locked yveltal/dragceus/defensive ho oh/non dtail defensive zyg/non knock off deo a and more situationally.

Gar barely traps the mons you listed btw, whereas goth can literally switch in, trap and beat them while also giving your team a free turn. Also dbond fails when used consecutively and should almost never be run on gengar.

 

[Exiline]

You missed half the list though.
defensive necro/celesteela/scarf xern/choice oblivion locked yveltal/dragceus/defensive ho oh/non dtail defensive zyg/non knock off deo a and more situationally.

Gar barely traps the mons you listed btw, whereas goth can literally switch in, trap and beat them while also giving your team a free turn. Also dbond fails when used consecutively and should almost never be run on gengar.

Defensive ho-oh doesnt exist outside of ladder même gamed
Celesteela doesnt exist
If youre bad enough to let your opponent trap your choiced yvel with goth then you would have lost even without goth
You cant switch into Scarfxern and you lose to crit
You cant switch into necroDM (and get 2hkoed by Z even w/o any atk invest) + vulnerable to crit (8 pp tho so its ok i guess)

And the two rarely seen case i forgot doesnt even invalidate my points especially since im in a favor of doing something with goth like you are kek


I wont even reply to the gengar part because it doesnt make any sense

You should really stop calling me out on discord 24/7 with some irrelevant arguments when you clearly dont know what you are talking about

 

[mags]

Instead of saying stuff doesn't exist when they do and then turn this into a cockfight maybe we should take everyones perspective into account and actually discuss shit for once. That post really leaves out a ton of stuff and sure it will make your argument more compelling but it's not accurate. As far as I'm concerned you just outlined a bunch of mgar's perks and didn't go into detail on why it's broken/uncompetitive. From a glance it seems like mgar is actually a healthy high skill ceiling mon which proves to be good in the hand of the right players. If we wanted to compare and contrast mgar and goth we would clearly see that mgar struggles with trapping a lot of things and needs the right sequences to actually perform correctly. On the other hand goth doesn't need these fancy manuevers and it's not trapping to kill it's getting a free turn out of it + the kill. Goth and mgar also trap different mons yes. But is trapping a broken or uncompetitive ability? I'd be interested in hearing your perspective on why trapping is such an uncompetitive or broken ability without talking about mgar/goth but just the ability itself.

 

[Exiline]

Instead of saying stuff doesn't exist when they do and then turn this into a cockfight maybe we should take everyones perspective into account and actually discuss shit for once. That post really leaves out a ton of stuff and sure it will make your argument more compelling but it's not accurate. As far as I'm concerned you just outlined a bunch of mgar's perks and didn't go into detail on why it's broken/uncompetitive. From a glance it seems like mgar is actually a healthy high skill ceiling mon which proves to be good in the hand of the right players. If we wanted to compare and contrast mgar and goth we would clearly see that mgar struggles with trapping a lot of things and needs the right sequences to actually perform correctly. On the other hand goth doesn't need these fancy manuevers and it's not trapping to kill it's getting a free turn out of it + the kill. Goth and mgar also trap different mons yes. But is trapping a broken or uncompetitive ability? I'd be interested in hearing your perspective on why trapping is such an uncompetitive or broken ability without talking about mgar/goth but just the ability itself.

On the ability shadow tag by itself:

Shadow tag is spiky topic imo. As for myself, I think that the ability could be considered uncompetitive even if all the shadow tag holder would be bad (which is indeed wrong in the gengar case).
To explain my position here, i'd say that (in my opinion again) the ingame skill in pokémon is mainly residing in your ability to switch, to summ it up the best player will win through superior switches over his opponent (granted the match up is allowing it, but this part is relying on the teambuilding skill which would be the second part of the so called "pokémon skill" along with the ingame skill).
As everyone here already knows shadow tag is preventing the switch, hence if you followed me, cancel the skill factor in the said pokémon game but also all interactions between both players (outside of some gengar 50/50s if it carries destiny bond). And even more than the "skill part" i'd like to keep the "interaction part" at all cost, last time the interaction part was cancelled by an element of the game was with the full baton pass teams (although shadow tag is only cancelling this interaction part for a few turns while BP is cancelling it for the whole game).

To get more concrete, i'd say that the Shadow Tag ability allows a player to get a winning gameplan way too easily which is a huge issue that should be dealt with in my opinion.

Quick side note:
If suspect were to happens, I would wait to see how the suspect meta goes before settling my opinion on wheter i'd vote ban or not ban in the case of a shadow tag suspect. In the unfortunate case of a goths only suspect i'd probably vote ban without thinking much tho because even if it won't bring a lot to the tier, it also won't worsen it in any case and even makes it slighty better because I think stall is in a pretty rough spot at the moment while a gengar ban could creates some issue (like making ultra necrozma a more significant threat).

I hope you got my point

 

[mags]

Exiline I do agree with you on some points but I also believe in the complete opposite at the same time. You can argue that shadow tag or just trapping abilities on the right pokemon can make the tier a lot healthier by limiting certain playstyles and making other playstyles stronger but at the same time all of them are viable. Without goth or gengar I'd believe that it would be heavily swayed so that defensive teams out perform offensive teams. Think about for a second... does gengar actually trap a lot of pokemon with ease? Not really it actually needs a lot of maneuvering to trap all of it's targets and that takes skill. So even if gengar is racking up these kills and it's showing to be a top tier threat I'd argue that it's the players wielding the mon that are showing that they are skilled rather than the mon itself being broken or the ability for that matter. I personally still believe gengar helps usm ubers a TON rather than being unhealthy but I do see how you believe stag to be an uncompetitive ability on some pokemon.