Other Pre-DLC SV Monotype Metagame Discussion

[Simon Science]

There is a decent amount of discussion surrounding a lot of the new threats from pokemon HOME, and I kind of want to add in my 2 cents here. This is an opinion post and I'm sure many of you will find my opinions are bad, but there aint much I can do about that innit.
For some information on my perspective, I played monotype a lot about 3 to 4 generations ago and got invested a lot into this metagame following pokemon HOME. I mainly run Rock and Poison teams, which I know are far from the best types, but are just what I know and find fun.

I'll be rating 1 Pokemon from the pre-home meta, 7 of the pokemon that were voted on by the council and survived that vote, and two Hisuian Evolutions that seem to be brought up in discussion somewhat regularly.

I'll also be broadly using 3 categories to define my general opinion on the pokemon:
[Its Fine]: I consider this pokemon to not be problematic at all
[Watchlist]: Not sure, or may be prone to becoming problematic with other bans
[PLEASE BAN THIS]: I consider this pokemon to be problematic

Chien-Pao: [PLEASE BAN THIS]
Even with the power creep from HOME, Chien-Pao somehow stands out as a different beast entierly. This thing is truly monstrouous, and if it was not for its extremely poor defensive profile, would be unstoppable. Even then, if it gets a single free turn to use swords dance, in most scenarios its realistically GG's. Way too strong for the tier as it stands, and probably should have been banned before HOME.

Moltres-Galar: [Its Fine]

I'm still of the opinion that dark type teams would sell Moltres-Galar's organs to get Mandibuzz back. And flying has much better things to be doing than using this. Dont get me wrong, Moltres-Galar is strong, but it suffers from some crippling problems. Its not that bulky, and its not that fast, and that might as well be a death sentence in this metagame even if you can get to +3 reliably. And yeah you get to +3, and then you have: Dark and flying type attacks. And like ancient power, shadow ball & hyper voice. Like it has its place, and can definitely be very scary in the right situation, but I dont see this thing being ban worthy at all.

Hoopa-Unbound: [Watchlist]
As someone who played during the age of Hoopa-U's generation-long rampage through monotype, I'm not comfortable with this thing, but it does seem to be suffering severely from power creep. Or, people have just not figured out how to run it again, as Unbound is the kind of pokemon that takes a bit of nuance to really take advantage of it. Still, its definetly not a ban priority right now, and might be fine.

Landorus-Incarnate: [Watchlist]

Lando-Incarnate lost Gravity this generation, making its sweeping potential much less dangerous than before. However I think the bigger factor is speed creep: 101 speed just isint as good as it used to be. Still, this guy is on my watchlist and not "fine" for a reason: SheerFOrb is still truly disgustingly powerful. and having nasty plot on top of that is just vile.

Spectrier: [Watchlist]

I'll be completely honest, Spectrier is watchlist simply because I have not seen him enough, because he is a pure ghost type. And ghost teams traditionally have some large challenges in monotype. I can see why it could be overpowered or unhealthy for the metagame, but its hard to tell when by default your metagame presence is a lot less than 1/18th of all teams.

Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: [Its Fine]

Might be a hot take, and I may eat my words in the future, but Rapid-Strike has been fairly unimpressive in my mind, mainly for one big reason. I'm way more scared of Quaquaval. Like unless some of Rapid-Strike's coverage options give it a huge advantage, which it probably dosent, its stats are fairly comparable to Quaquaval. Both are extremely similar, so you should probably only choose one or the other. And Quaquaval is frikken- really really good, and I'd argue, at least with what I have seen so far, better than Rapid-Strike.

Urshifu-Single-Strike: [PLEASE BAN THIS]

Single strike on the other hand. Oh boy. Wicked blow has no right to be THIS strong. Single-Strike isint competing with anything else, and just deals way too much damage with very little counterplay. Its practically on par with Chien-Pao and way too strong for the current meta.

Zamazenta: [Watchlist]

Zamazenta is like. A pokemon that exists. It has really good stats. It has a "somewhat" usefull ability. Its got a lot of coverage options. And thats about it. Its somehow incredibly strong and incredibly pathetic at once. Being a single type in Monotype pretty much means you either need to be broken to see usage or bring some kind of unique utility to the table, because each team slot is another potential dual typing and therefore more resistances. Spectrier is kinda broken with its special moxie, speed, nasty plot, ect, but is stuck on one of the worst types in a power crept meta. Zamazenta is stuck on a mid type that frankly has better things to do if he cant completely break the meta. Zamazenta is either going to be banned or going to be in the bottom of the VR's, IMO.

Sneasler: [Its Fine]

(Yeah I am biast) Sneasler is quite the controversial figure recently, with a lot of discussion regarding the tiering policy and the move "Dire Claw". Now look, I personally think you should ban Dire Claw, but if you want to insist that the tiering policy just cant handle such a complicated task, I'm also of the opinion you shouldent ban Sneasler even if you dont ban Dire Claw. Because Sneasler actually like, kinda sucks at abusing just how degenerate of a move Dire Claw could be. 50% odds of inflicting one of 3 statuses are really poor odds, and if Sneasler is getting enough opportunities to make those odds reliable, either the opponent or sneasler is allready dead. If Sneasler had a poison type earthquake, you would run that practically every single time over dire claw, because 50% of the time you click the dire claw button its just a poison jab. And outside of Dire Claw, Sneasler is really good, but I dont think its oppressive. Dual typing is nice, but its dual stabs arent that synergistic. It dosent have that many coverage moves, and can get wittled down to a point where it dies to resisted priority moves.

Ursaluna: [Watchlist]

Ursaluna is terrifying, especially as someone who plays rock and poison. This thing is a true monster, and will just outright OHKO neutral hits on bulky pokemon. And in return, Ursaluna is extremely bulky itself, capable of taking hits very well. Furthermore, guts flame orb means you cant use status to cripple it. Ursaluna of course isint a "Perfect" pokemon, as you can still outspeed and make it die to attrition, eventually. But the big problem is that Ursaluna dosent exist in a Vacuum, it exists within a team, and Ursaluna benefits an absurd amount from support. Screens, Cyclizar shed tail on normal, and trick room cut down the few forms of counterplay this thing has. I know I'm biast because again, I mostly play two types which have a lot of difficulty dealing with ursaluna, which is why I put it on watchlist.

 

[ken]

I'm really glad so many of you are interested in Monotype, but please remember one of the forum rules:

– Do not make meaningless or one-line posts.

Shitposting is generally fine when there's more to be added, but please don't spam one liners, double post, or post just for the sake of posting. I've swept the last page or so and deleted a bunch of one liners and off topic posts. If you have questions about why your post was deleted, my PMs are open.

Anyways, as Kev mentioned pages ago, only posts/comments related to the metagame will be accepted now. That is the purpose of this thread. Anything that falls outside of that will be deleted/edited. If you have other comments regarding the off topic stuff in this thread, then feel free to DM me on discord, Smogon, or on the simulator.

 

[showdownperson]

My personal opinion: Iron bundle should be unbanned, I mean, it's one of the two Pokémon that kept ice relevant, and now Chien-Pao is trying to hold a type together, also, if nonsense like dire claw sneasler can run around, let alone more recognizable threats like Urshifu in general, Lando-I (sheer FOrb is kinda on the busted side) Ursaluna, Chien-Pao, Flutter Mane, Gholdengo (albeit a bit mixed, u can't remove hazards on it, taunt it, status it for the most part, etc.)
EDIT: with the new stuff from home, I PERSONALLY feel that bundle now has more checks than he did before home (Sneasler, Hoodra, Regieleki, Hoopa-U, and more I'm missing most likely)

 

[Giyu]

My personal opinion: Iron bundle should be unbanned, I mean, it's one of the two Pokémon that kept ice relevant, and now Chien-Pao is trying to hold a type together, also, if nonsense like dire claw sneasler can run around, let alone more recognizable threats like Urshifu in general, Lando-I (sheer FOrb is kinda on the busted side) Ursaluna, Chien-Pao, Flutter Mane, Gholdengo (albeit a bit mixed, u can't remove hazards on it, taunt it, status it for the most part, etc.)

"A type being too weak or unviable is not a concern for the sake of tiering. This means the suspect for a Pokemon that enables any certain type to be viable should not take into account the resulting unviability of that type. That also means unbanning Pokemon to buff a type is unacceptable."

Resource - Monotype Tiering Information | Smogon Forums

 

[Roxanner]

My personal opinion: Iron bundle should be unbanned, I mean, it's one of the two Pokémon that kept ice relevant, and now Chien-Pao is trying to hold a type together, also, if nonsense like dire claw sneasler can run around, let alone more recognizable threats like Urshifu in general, Lando-I (sheer FOrb is kinda on the busted side) Ursaluna, Chien-Pao, Flutter Mane, Gholdengo (albeit a bit mixed, u can't remove hazards on it, taunt it, status it for the most part, etc.)

Tiering becomes an absolute mess if the goal is to try and make types equal, which is why we don't. Iron Bundle is so strong because between hydropump and freeze-dry, it has perfect coverage along with its incredible speed tier (1 higher than Chien and Flutter) and incredible Sp.Atk.

Dire claw sneasler while frustrating, isn't busted in my opinion. Along with Gholdengo (haven't seen this guy since Home release) and Ursaluna not being that incredibly strong in monotype either. I agree with DarkShifu being the next to go but I would like to see how Lando-I and the other beasts settle once DarkShifu is gone first.

 

[TheWyvernKing]

My personal opinion: Iron bundle should be unbanned, I mean, it's one of the two Pokémon that kept ice relevant, and now Chien-Pao is trying to hold a type together, also, if nonsense like dire claw sneasler can run around, let alone more recognizable threats like Urshifu in general, Lando-I (sheer FOrb is kinda on the busted side) Ursaluna, Chien-Pao, Flutter Mane, Gholdengo (albeit a bit mixed, u can't remove hazards on it, taunt it, status it for the most part, etc.)

Giryu beat me to it but tiering wise, you don't unban busted mons in order to save 1 type, you'd have a better shot if you could make a cohesive argument about how the mon isn't as threatening/types now have more reliable checks and counters since home. Either way I'd want the meta to settle a tiny bit first before considering it, and also don't think much has really changed that would warrant that.

I'll also point out that it's week 1 of home, and the mons you listed are no doubt being looked at. I'd be surprised if Urshifu isn't banned within the week. Though in response to the other mons you listed...
is nowhere near as bad as it was, Dragon has which hard counters, Fighting has 2 new potential checks (Heavy slam Zamazenta + Scarf Sneasler, not to mention it still has it's old check in Iron Hands). Fire has heatran so the rare Power Gem Protosynthesis isn't the same threat it was. The only type I really see that you can make the argument for against Flutter right now is Grass.
Incredibly difficult to fit on ground, it's a solid wallbreaker but the meta is wayyy too fast paced for it to stand out. Good mon but has never seemed like an issue to me.
The mon I considered most ban worthy pre-home, still a threat, saw some people saying it should be banned. Definitely need the meta to settle a bit more I think but I think it's a mon on people's watchlist for sure.
Really underwhelming so far in my opinion. You're right Life Orb + Sheer Force makes it an insane wallbreaker, but losing gravity and rock polish really hampers it. Maybe it's just me not noticing, but so far it doesn't seem anywhere near the threat it was in old gens. It doesn't solve Ground's old problems, and feels like it fights for a slot there. On Flying, Lando-T is often more useful. The speed + power creep, and how HO the meta is means it isn't as noticeable.
Pre-Home this argument made far less sense, but there's a discussion to be had now about Gholdengo's ability to block hazards with Steel getting it's immunity core back and becoming more of a threat again. More hazard removal makes it a bit more noticeable, but even me saying this is based less on actual experience with it as a threat than what Steel's new core means on paper.

 

[RoyalReloaded]

was gonna respond to the bundle post saying the same thing but got ninja'd by giyu

anyway i wanted to make another long-winded post but i dont rly have the energy right now. Fighting / Flying / Poison feel like the major winners of home, probably in that order. It seems like i play against fighting every other match (and for a good reason, its really strong). I think the only 2 pokemon that should be on a watch list right now are urshifu-dark and zamazenta-hero in that order. both of which can just completely sweep teams with too much ease imo. urshifu gets 1 swords dance and has like 3 switchins total, where zamazenta usually needs an iron defense + a sub to become its scariest, but it is still manageable.

sorry for the shorter post but just wanted to say my thoughts, still having a lot of fun playing monotype and looking forward to learning more!

 

[TheWyvernKing]

was gonna respond to the bundle post saying the same thing but got ninja'd by giyu

anyway i wanted to make another long-winded post but i dont rly have the energy right now. Fighting / Flying / Poison feel like the major winners of home, probably in that order. It seems like i play against fighting every other match (and for a good reason, its really strong). I think the only 2 pokemon that should be on a watch list right now are urshifu-dark and zamazenta-hero in that order. both of which can just completely sweep teams with too much ease imo. urshifu gets 1 swords dance and has like 3 switchins total, where zamazenta usually needs an iron defense + a sub to become its scariest, but it is still manageable.

sorry for the shorter post but just wanted to say my thoughts, still having a lot of fun playing monotype and looking forward to learning more!

Flying honestly doesn't feel anywhere as broken as it did in past gens, at the very least I feel it's manageable by most types I'd played with so far. Frosmoth's synergy on Bug has never been better, and I consider it pretty easy to make a successful bug that handles Flying for instance - my home game wasn't played perfectly by either me or mush but is an example of how Bug has alot more counterplay for standard Flying. I also don't think Dragon should really be losing that matchup, and maybe it's just getting used to Flying's new builds but especially compared to Gen 8 - Flying is nowhere near as dominating from what I'd seen.
I also am not confident I agree with Poison being a major winner. Still no real ground immune, and the new builds I think have some real structural issues too that we'll see become even more apparent as the meta develops a bit further. Alot of the successful poison builds so far have dropped Clodsire and the fire/poison for instance, so Nasty Plot Gholdengo seems even more potent in my eyes. If anything I'll say that the poison we've seen succeeding so far simply does well against the current meta. Ground and Psy have been pretty nonexistant, and so far I haven't seen all too much Steel either. I kinda feel that once we do some initial bans like Urshifu which Steel seriously struggles against, that we'll begin to see how Poison's core holds up.

Also I agree urshifu and Zam are the top dogs (haha), with Shifu being a mon I think should be quickbanned and Zam defs suspect worthy. I think losing Urshifu alone will hamper Fighting a decent bit, the ghost and psy mus will instantly become more difficult, but Fighting will still be a threat for sure and we may see some of it's other options take the limelight a bit more like Lilligant.

 

[Inwhale]

Flying honestly doesn't feel anywhere as broken as it did in past gens, at the very least I feel it's manageable by most types I'd played with so far. Frosmoth's synergy on Bug has never been better, and I consider it pretty easy to make a successful bug that handles Flying for instance - my home game wasn't played perfectly by either me or mush but is an example of how Bug has alot more counterplay for standard Flying. I also don't think Dragon should really be losing that matchup, and maybe it's just getting used to Flying's new builds but especially compared to Gen 8 - Flying is nowhere near as dominating from what I'd seen.
I also am not confident I agree with Poison being a major winner. Still no real ground immune, and the new builds I think have some real structural issues too that we'll see become even more apparent as the meta develops a bit further. Alot of the successful poison builds so far have dropped Clodsire and the fire/poison for instance, so Nasty Plot Gholdengo seems even more potent in my eyes. If anything I'll say that the poison we've seen succeeding so far simply does well against the current meta. Ground and Psy have been pretty nonexistant, and so far I haven't seen all too much Steel either. I kinda feel that once we do some initial bans like Urshifu which Steel seriously struggles against, that we'll begin to see how Poison's core holds up.

Also I agree urshifu and Zam are the top dogs (haha), with Shifu being a mon I think should be quickbanned and Zam defs suspect worthy. I think losing Urshifu alone will hamper Fighting a decent bit, the ghost and psy mus will instantly become more difficult, but Fighting will still be a threat for sure and we may see some of it's other options take the limelight a bit more like Lilligant.

Frosmoth still suffers horribly from an abysmal movepool, having no way to touch steel types (which is becoming increasingly common on the ladder due to having its immunity core back) and only having flying moves as neutral coverage vs fire (air slash over hurricane as you'll most likely be in sun, if you're going for that route)- granted, fire is pretty rare on ladder. I'm curious as to what you consider the actual upsides of using frosmoth are considering the opportunity cost, as the bug vs dragon matchup doesn't seem to be in dragon's favor even without frosmoth, and although it's admittedly powerful against flying, it feels like a dead slot in most common matchups on ladder due to its poor speed and garbage typing.

 

[TheWyvernKing]

Frosmoth still suffers horribly from an abysmal movepool, having no way to touch steel types (which is becoming increasingly common on the ladder due to having its immunity core back) and only having flying moves as neutral coverage vs fire (air slash over hurricane as you'll most likely be in sun, if you're going for that route)- granted, fire is pretty rare on ladder. I'm curious as to what you consider the actual upsides of using frosmoth are considering the opportunity cost, as the bug vs dragon matchup doesn't seem to be in dragon's favor even without frosmoth, and although it's admittedly powerful against flying, it feels like a dead slot in most common matchups on ladder due to its poor speed and garbage typing.

The 6th slot on bug feels more flexible post home, some of the threats I found necessary to have a mon like Vivi for have gone down alot in usage, and alot of past threats can be covered now with 5 mons. Idk if I'll keep using frosmoth depending on how comps change post Urshifu ban, but I guess the place it's been most important so far have been the Flying/Water matchups, especially with Specs Swift Swim Basc running around. Sub/QD also makes a meal out of bulkier mons, and really it's pretty useful in alot of neutrals I think. Kinda runs through water on its own, huge threat in Ground and Flying - especially since alot of newer flying builds have alot of mons that moth takes advantage of, neat to have in Poison, can 3hko Dondozo. I would've agreed more with you pre home, where frosmoth builds really felt like nothing more than a matchup fish that had fewer good matchups than what was standard, but from using it now I definitely consider it a more viable build for like 70% of matchups.

 

[mushamu]

I have some free time right now so I wanted to comment on the Pokemon on the watchlist and general metagame thoughts.

Pokemon on the watchlist:

I don't believe rain teams to be overbearing, unhealthy, or broken. In fact, I think rain probably got worse post-HOME due to a lot of the Pokemon that were added to the arsenal of usable options. The textbook example of this would probably be Hisuian Goodra being added to Steel to give it a Water resistance, but rain is generally just something you have to account for in the builder but gets naturally covered if you make a competent team. Even types that don't have a "dedicated" Water resistance like Dark and Flying can deal with it through Pokemon like Thundurus-T and Meowscarada. If anything, Urshifu-R should be kept an eye on since it would be the main component that would make rain broken due to sheer lack of consistent counterplay, but for now I don't feel like any urgent action should be taken on it as the metagame unfolds because it's still being slowly introduced back into the tier and it hasn't been too overbearing. This is combined with the fact that Quaquaval is still probably the main Fighting Pokemon you're running on Water due to Rapid Spin combined with the centralization of hazards on the tier. Basculegion-F is great but not by any means broken and mainly contributes to the type as a way of spinblocking. Barraskewda is still a more threatening rain abuser than it due to its speed with the Ghost typing put aside.


Sneasler's Dire Claw is a bullshit move that can fish for status extremely easily but I don't feel like it's good enough on its own to warrant being removed from the metagame. Even if something gets slept/paralyzed by Dire Claw (which is the most favorable circumstance), it shouldn't be a huge influence in the long run as long as the opposing player plays well given that neither of the types Sneasler is on is too good. I can see it becoming problematic when Urshifu-S was allowed if something like Dire Claw sleeps Toxapex and Urshifu-S sets up for free and wins happening but now Dire Claw shouldn't be too bad since the argument that it's probability management can be used. Even if you get RNG'd by Dire Claw, you shouldn't lose unless you play extremely horrendously much like how Amoonguss's Spore works which is a guaranteed Sleep but it's not overwhelming since Poison and Grass can't take advantage of it to an unhealthy extent.


I think Spectrier should be banned. It was already very dangerous back in SS when it didn't get Draining Kiss, but now it's even more powerful in a metagame that's less accustomed to counterplay against it. Draining Kiss might not seem like that much on paper, but it does allow Spectrier to do notable things like power through Galarian Moltres on Flying and then sweep, while Ghost STAB coming from a 145 Special Attack and Speed is generally going to be nasty no matter what thanks to the infamous lack of good resistances. If you look at the top types right now, they all struggle against Spectrier in an unhealthy way. Fairy, Water, Ground, Steel, and Dragon are all weak to Shadow Ball and Hex, and it can Substitute up on passive Pokemon and basically claim a free kill. Will-O-Wisp also means doing something like forcing in Kingambit against Steel and burning it is usually a win/win scenario for the Ghost player regardless or not if they lose Spectrier in the end and makes the matchup too overwhelming to be considered balanced.


Zamazenta is surprisingly balanced just because Fighting is really bad. It doesn't really do much on its own to make Fighting as a type overbearing, since the main role it had was to be a backbone for Urshifu-S to wincon late game. Pretty much every type has solid counterplay to it, nothing else to be said.

General metagame thoughts:
I really like the current metagame right now compared to how the tier was pre-HOME mainly because the new additions have improved the issue of hazards's grip on SV. Beforehand the metagame was way too centered on who could get hazards up the fastest and then try to wincon the game away, but now there's more early-mid game planning which provides for overall a healthier tier from a playing standpoint. Flying becomes more relevant compared to falling off at the end of pre-HOME metagame, and types like Steel becoming good is huge for metagame structure. SV Monotype is still largely offense based, but there's more ways to win that aren't clicking hazards and then setting up now. Overall it's a pretty competitive metagame and it will be really nice to see how it unfolds.

 

[Dead by Daylight]

Gonna do what Simon did because I have no original ideas right now and I am too tired to think.

Let it Be
Suspect
Quickban

Let it Be

Contrary to Simon, I haven’t found Chien-Pao very overbearing. While it may be a threat, I don’t see the point in banning it now when there are insane threats running around.

Suspect well now it's quickbanned

Urshifu is still an incredibly strong wallbreaker that can invalidate bulkier teams like Poison and Stall Water. However, I’d say it’s balanced by its quite poor (IMO) matchup into offense. It should certainly be suspected, though.

Quickban

I hate to say it, but the ghost horse gaining Draining Kiss has broken it. Will-o-Wisp lets you take attacks quite easily as always, but Draining Kiss invalidates attempts to chip Spectrier down with the burned ‘mon in question. Unless you’ve stacked Sucker Punch users up the wazoo or have multiple burn immunities, this steamrolls far too easily.

Suspect

Landorus is a ‘mon that has always stood out for its power. However, losing Rock Polish and Gravity actively hurt it, meaning that it can no longer become a sweeper with SFLO-boosted Earth Powers and Sludge Bombs. I would say it’s fine, but I haven’t seen it much.

Let it Be

Hoopa-U hasn't really stood out as a threat to me. Maybe it's because Psychic is meh with Dark and Ghost running about and that it's a pain to fit on Dark, but I have not seen it in a singular game. When I see it, I can then probably make an informed decision.

Suspect

Ursaluna (the Cocaine Bear) is THE balance and stall breaker to end all balance and stall breakers. While its power is monstrous, it fares even worse against faster-paced teams than Urshifu, which was the reason I wanted to only suspect test Urshifu. I'd say that it has enough power to where it can invalidate slower teamstyles on paper, but in practice it's difficult to fit on Ground due to the lack of slots and Normal is just a mediocre type at this conjecture.

Suspect

Work in Progress

Also, I'm creating a tier list of all the types' First Impressions coming out of Home's release. That'll be out soon.

 

[Dragapult]

What tier are you guys playing that Ursaluna has come up as many times as it is has on this page?

It's a slow breaker with poor defensive profile on one shitty type and one meh type where it doesn't even make the cut. It trades breaking power for lack of survivability and can't even run HDB to mitigate additional wear from Spikes. If this is suspect worthy then Iron Hands should've already been banned. Please let it go.

Ursaluna (the Cocaine Bear) is THE balance and stall breaker to end all balance and stall breakers. While its power is monstrous, it fares even worse against faster-paced teams than Urshifu, which was the reason I wanted to only suspect test Urshifu. I'd say that it has enough power to where it can invalidate slower teamstyles on paper, but in practice it's difficult to fit on Ground due to the lack of slots and Normal is just a mediocre type at this conjecture.

I just don't see how based on anything objective going on in the game r/n that any of Hoopa-U, Ursaluna, or quite frankly even Lando-I can be coming up this often especially with RNG Claw and Spectrier in the tier. There's no point composing watchlists of 10 threats when you admit to not actually having seen half of them being played.

I'm all for generating activity in what's been a pretty slow thread but I feel like the writing process is the opportunity to think things out and this much discussion about Ursaluna tells me people aren't actually playing the tier.

I also am not confident I agree with Poison being a major winner. Still no real ground immune, and the new builds I think have some real structural issues too that we'll see become even more apparent as the meta develops a bit further. Alot of the successful poison builds so far have dropped Clodsire and the fire/poison for instance, so Nasty Plot Gholdengo seems even more potent in my eyes. If anything I'll say that the poison we've seen succeeding so far simply does well against the current meta. Ground and Psy have been pretty nonexistant, and so far I haven't seen all too much Steel either. I kinda feel that once we do some initial bans like Urshifu which Steel seriously struggles against, that we'll begin to see how Poison's core holds up.

100%. More so than any other type Poison has an immense 6 slot issue in the builder and just about every Poison I've played against still ends up getting melted by any +1 sweeper w/ Earthquake. Those no-Clodsire builds popular on ladder right now lose pretty consistently to Dragonite, Baxcalibur, Fighting, etc.

 

[Dead by Daylight]

What tier are you guys playing that Ursaluna has come up as many times as it is has on this page?

It's a slow breaker with poor defensive profile on one shitty type and one meh type where it doesn't even make the cut. It trades breaking power for lack of survivability and can't even run HDB to mitigate additional wear from Spikes. If this is suspect worthy then Iron Hands should've already been banned. Please let it go.

I think you're underestimating just how powerful Ursaluna is. Here are some calculations to illustrate its power:

Cocaine Bear Calculations

252+ Atk Guts Ursaluna Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 100 Def Corviknight: 248-294 (62 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Guts Ursaluna Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ting-Lu: 374-442 (72.7 - 85.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Guts Ursaluna Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Garganacl: 456-536 (112.8 - 132.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Guts Ursaluna Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Dondozo: 351-414 (69.6 - 82.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Guts Ursaluna Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Great Tusk: 244-288 (56.2 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Guts Ursaluna Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 306-360 (100.9 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Guts Ursaluna Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 358-423 (83 - 98.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

While it is a drag to put on teams and doesn't do much of anything against offense, it invalidates stall and balance teams. I'm not fully in favor of banning it, but it should be looked at further down the line. True, we may be using theory with Ursaluna, but these calcs alone should be quite evident of how hard it is to deal with on Poison, slower-paced Water teams, etc.

 

[mushamu]

As much as Ursaluna invalidates stall teams, I don’t feel like bulky teams are that great in general in this metagame. They easily get invalidated by many Pokémon; for example the combination of Spikes + Knock Off shreds many of them with a sturdy way to cycle preventing passive types from making any progress. Losing Scald was awful for bulky teams and Pokemon like Corviknight and Kingambit mainly can now annoy them immensely by denying any progress whatsoever. Gholdengo is another Pokémon that easily beats Water and Poison thanks to its incredible removal denying abilities combined with the presence of hazards on both types, but it doesn’t make it an unhealthy presence in general. I would attribute stall teams being weak to Ursaluna to the overall downward viability of them in the current metagame.

 

[TheWyvernKing]

I think you're underestimating just how powerful Ursaluna is. Here are some calculations to illustrate its power:

Cocaine Bear Calculations

252+ Atk Guts Ursaluna Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 100 Def Corviknight: 248-294 (62 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Guts Ursaluna Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ting-Lu: 374-442 (72.7 - 85.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Guts Ursaluna Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Garganacl: 456-536 (112.8 - 132.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Guts Ursaluna Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Dondozo: 351-414 (69.6 - 82.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Guts Ursaluna Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Great Tusk: 244-288 (56.2 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Guts Ursaluna Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 306-360 (100.9 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Guts Ursaluna Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 358-423 (83 - 98.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

While it is a drag to put on teams and doesn't do much of anything against offense, it invalidates stall and balance teams. I'm not fully in favor of banning it, but it should be looked at further down the line. True, we may be using theory with Ursaluna, but these calcs alone should be quite evident of how hard it is to deal with on Poison, slower-paced Water teams, etc.

I get what you're saying, but I neither think that something like this is unprecedented in Monotype, nor that Ursaluna has really stuck out as meta defining or overly hard to answer.
Some example of stuff we've had in the past, I mean look at Mega Heracross or Darmanitan Galar. Megacross in particular I think is a good comparison, it could 2hko the entire tier at the time(Gen 6/Gen 7) bar a few exceptions like Landorus-T and Gliscor, doing over 50 to even Skarmory and having a kill chance if not outright OHKO on most bulky waters bar Alomomola and Sap Sipper Azumarill. Even with 75 base speed and overall solid bulk though, it may have been an amazing wallbreaker but never once sent out signal flares as a mon to even be considered suspect worthy.
Something the Gen 8 folk would more likely see as a comparison to Ursaluna is Darm G. Held back by the type it's on, but capable of even higher damage output than Ursaluna is. While Ursaluna gets the 1.5x from Guts, Darm G gets 1.5x Gorilla tactics, as well as the obvious option of either a Band or Scarf on top of it, meaning it was not only faster than Ursaluna but capable of more damage as well.
I will also point out, that unlike with Mega Heracross and the walls it was breaking in for example, half the mons you listed are capable of actually threatening Ursaluna back with super effective coverage. Sure I don't think most of them would win the 1v1, but in tandem with Ursaluna's burn damage, and chip from any hazards on the field, there's a pretty solid guarantee that Ursaluna would be KOd almost immediately after. Not to mention but these calcs are kinda devoid of circumstance. Assuming you double Ursaluna in for example, that would mean Gargancle or Dondozo would likely have a boost in these calcs. Not to mention but if it's Great Tusk vs. an unburnt Ursaluna, Tusk will just knock off immediately and Ursaluna will become far less threatening afterwards.

Either way, just about every mon you listed will have solid team options for revenge killing, and longevity wise Ursaluna isn't something that can really stick around. I personally see every bulky team right now to have 1 pokemon or another that can absolutely decimate them. Landorus-I is likely far worse for Poison than Ursaluna the way I see it, between sheer force life orb Psychic + Earth Power and far higher speed tier. Gholdengo, especially with nasty plot, can tear through poison teams. Hell you could run Sub SD Glastrier and that would probs destroy poison too if we're being real. As Mushamu said, there's a downward overall viability of stall and bulkier teams in today's meta. Ursaluna is simply 1 wallbreaker among many that can handle these bulkier teams, but even so I don't think it stands out in itself.

 

[Simon Science]

What tier are you guys playing that Ursaluna has come up as many times as it is has on this page?

It's a slow breaker with poor defensive profile on one shitty type and one meh type where it doesn't even make the cut. It trades breaking power for lack of survivability and can't even run HDB to mitigate additional wear from Spikes. If this is suspect worthy then Iron Hands should've already been banned. Please let it go.



I just don't see how based on anything objective going on in the game r/n that any of Hoopa-U, Ursaluna, or quite frankly even Lando-I can be coming up this often especially with RNG Claw and Spectrier in the tier. There's no point composing watchlists of 10 threats when you admit to not actually having seen half of them being played.

I'm all for generating activity in what's been a pretty slow thread but I feel like the writing process is the opportunity to think things out and this much discussion about Ursaluna tells me people aren't actually playing the tier.



100%. More so than any other type Poison has an immense 6 slot issue in the builder and just about every Poison I've played against still ends up getting melted by any +1 sweeper w/ Earthquake. Those no-Clodsire builds popular on ladder right now lose pretty consistently to Dragonite, Baxcalibur, Fighting, etc.

Your arguments feel a bit reductive of other people’s posts, rather than engaging in constructive discussion, at least the first two parts. Lando-I and Hoopa-U have historically been very unhealthy for the tier so I think its very reasoneable to keep an eye on them, especially in a changing metagame where they might thrive when other broken threats are removed.

For ursaluna, Its got enough bulk where strong supereffective STAB attacks, like sneasler’s close combat, fail to OHKO it. Now I get normal isint a good type right now, but a pokemon dosent have to be on a good type to be unhealthy for the metagame.

Reading what WyvernKing said, I agree, though I feel there is a little bit of a difference between those examples and Ursaluna in the current metagame. Mainly normal’s utility options and Guts. Guts means you cant cripple Ursaluna with status, and normal has access to shed tail cyclizar. last time I laddered, pretty much all normal teams have been warped by ursaluna to have some form of support for it that would negate counterplay options (screens, shed tail, trick room), and then attempt to sweep. I’m not saying like “oh Ursaluna is OP ban it immediately”, but I think its worth keeping an eye on.

 

[Aschmaros]

Lets talk about Dire Claw real quickly, because I have a bone to pick with this move because Gamefreak, once again this generation, decided to make an arguable unhealthy really good move and stuck it on a really good mon. I'm not going to talk about Snealser in this post (if I do it will be little), and just ranting about Dire Claw but just know my stance is basically quickban Sneasler because its a really good mon that you see often, with an arguable uncompetitive exclusive move that goes against the first tiering philosophy

My main grip with this move is that you simply can't accurately plan around this move. Atleast with scald rather i'm facing it or using it, I know that scald's secondary effect is static. Meaning that even though theres a chance of it happening, I can atleast attempt to plan with scald burning or not in mind. Dire Claw erases this aspect completely, and honestly it's surprising how both reliable and unreliable it can be. Not only is 50% instead of the usual 30% (WHY GAMEFREAK), it also can inflict two really good status effects (sleep, and paralyze) and one alright status (regular poison). Not to mention that if a pokemon is already slept, and you use dire claw you still can roll for sleep! And if you do in this scenario it just fizzles so that just increases the luck factor. Can't even just switch a steel type in for free sometimes to avoid this cause Sneasler is part fighting and has close combat :/


But maybe i'm crazy, and I would like to hear other's more informed opinion on Dire Claw and Sneasler.

 

[mushamu]

I think Dire Claw, and by extension Sneasler as a whole, should be tiered the same way as sleep is, and that it should be allowed because of that. The status meshing is definitely very threatening on paper, but for the most part the best one you can pull is Sleep. Rolling Sleep randomly completely knocks out a Pokemon for a short period of time, and is the main reason as to why it would be considered unhealthy in my opinion. Poison and Paralysis are not too bad when you take into account good probability management, and for the most part it's the same as clicking Poison Jab and Discharge, neither of which are uncompetitive. I don't feel that Sneasler's Dire Claw is unhealthy for the metagame when you put it into practice by looking at it on the same level as other Sleep moves, mainly Spore. Poison and Paralysis are nasty in practice, but aren't enough to push Sneasler over the edge.

Sneasler has a lot of counterplay in the sense that there's usually going to be a few Pokemon that wall it and that Dire Claw is, for the most part, not going to be deciding a game if you play well. As for switchins, a lot of the common Steel types can actually switch into Sneasler; Corviknight and Gholdengo are two primary options in the metagame that hard wall standard Sneasler sets assuming they're running Choice. Swords Dance sets are good, but I don't feel like they're consistent enough to warrant accounting for and have good counterplay as well especially when taking into account teammates. I see it as Dire Claw's main issue is when it randomly pulls Sleep on a Pokemon, and that can be attributed the same way Breloom or Amoonguss, two Pokemon that are also on the same types Sneasler is on, clicks Spore and induces Sleep 100% of the time regardless.
You can accurately plan against Sneasler's Dire Claw the same way you would account for Sleep in general.

Whether or not Sleep is uncompetitive and worth removing from the metagame should be another separate discussion, but the bottom line is that I don't see Dire Claw as any different than Sleep in general. It's also worth noting that I don't see how Dire Claw's ability to pull Sleep any different than how Ice Beam pulls Freezes randomly that can sometimes be game deciding, especially when the probability of either happening are similar (Dire Claw pulls sleep a little over 10% of the time).

 

[Inwhale]

I think Dire Claw, and by extension Sneasler as a whole, should be tiered the same way as sleep is, and that it should be allowed because of that. The status meshing is definitely very threatening on paper, but for the most part the best one you can pull is Sleep. Rolling Sleep randomly completely knocks out a Pokemon for a short period of time, and is the main reason as to why it would be considered unhealthy in my opinion. Poison and Paralysis are not too bad when you take into account good probability management, and for the most part it's the same as clicking Poison Jab and Discharge, neither of which are uncompetitive. I don't feel that Sneasler's Dire Claw is unhealthy for the metagame when you put it into practice by looking at it on the same level as other Sleep moves, mainly Spore. Poison and Paralysis are nasty in practice, but aren't enough to push Sneasler over the edge.

Sneasler has a lot of counterplay in the sense that there's usually going to be a few Pokemon that wall it and that Dire Claw is, for the most part, not going to be deciding a game if you play well. As for switchins, a lot of the common Steel types can actually switch into Sneasler; Corviknight and Gholdengo are two primary options in the metagame that hard wall standard Sneasler sets assuming they're running Choice. Swords Dance sets are good, but I don't feel like they're consistent enough to warrant accounting for and have good counterplay as well especially when taking into account teammates. I see it as Dire Claw's main issue is when it randomly pulls Sleep on a Pokemon, and that can be attributed the same way Breloom or Amoonguss, two Pokemon that are also on the same types Sneasler is on, clicks Spore and induces Sleep 100% of the time regardless.
You can accurately plan against Sneasler's Dire Claw the same way you would account for Sleep in general.

Whether or not Sleep is uncompetitive and worth removing from the metagame should be another separate discussion, but the bottom line is that I don't see Dire Claw as any different than Sleep in general. It's also worth noting that I don't see how Dire Claw's ability to pull Sleep any different than how Ice Beam pulls Freezes randomly that can sometimes be game deciding, especially when the probability of either happening are similar (Dire Claw pulls sleep a little over 10% of the time).

Your argument is terrible. You talk about counterplay, but the way you play vs spore and dire claw is completely different. Spore is guaranteed to put your pokemon to sleep, so if you don't have something that can absorb powder moves, and can't stop it otherwise, you switch to the pokemon you're least hurt by getting slept. With dire claw, you can't play around sleep specifically, as it's a poison type attack move first and a 17% chance to get slept second, or 17% para or poison. You have to play accordingly.
As far as the "lot of common steel types" go, you named 2 of the 3 who are actually switchins, Corviknight for flying and steel, Gholdengo for ghost and steel, and Klefki for fairy. That's it, that's your "lots". everything else is a 1-2hko to CC.
You absolutely cannot accurately plan against dire claw the same way you would account for sleep.

 

[mushamu]

Your argument is terrible. You talk about counterplay, but the way you play vs spore and dire claw is completely different. Spore is guaranteed to put your pokemon to sleep, so if you don't have something that can absord powder moves, and can't stop it otherwise, you switch to the pokemon you're least hurt by getting slept. With dire claw, you can't play around sleep specifically, as it's a poison type attack move first and a 17% chance to get slept second, or 17% para or poison. You have to play accordingly.
As far as the "lot of common steel types" go, you named 2 of the 3 who are actually switchins, Corviknight for flying and steel, Gholdengo for ghost and steel, and Klefki for fairy. That's it, that's your "lots". everything else is a 1-2hko to CC.
You absolutely cannot accurately plan against dire claw the same way you would account for sleep.

I don't think you read my post. Sleep is by far the most threatening out of the three. Poison and Paralysis are not problematic. Gholdengo and Corviknight are the two of the main Steel types in the tier, other Pokemon answer Sneasler as well.

 

[Rebelpyroflame]

I don't know if cha guys have had different experiences, but I've been watching as many poison fights as I can and dire claw isn't really a thing. People play sneasler, they have the move, but it takes a very special set of circumstances to sweep with sneasler. So far, every match I've seen the guy switches in sneasler onto a hit, tries to attack but the opponent swaps into the team physical tank/counter, then sneasler either dies or gets swapped out again.

It's frustrating because sneasler is a good Mon, but with the current metagame no-one seems to have worked out the best way to use him. He's fast and strong, but frail enough that priority and enough tankiness undoes him.

 

[mushamu]

Also to add onto the Sneasler discussion, it would be really nice to provide replays of Dire Claw being too much ingame to the point where it takes the game out of the players hands. It's interesting that it got a lot of ban votes on the last quick ban slate and I'm personally curious as to any examples where one side lost to Dire Claw's RNG in an uncompetitive way that sets it apart from something like being frozen by Ice Beam. For a lot of the games that I've played with Dire Claw, the opponent had to actively fuck up or play suboptimally to lose to Sneasler. A majority of the games with Sneasler in them have been in the players' hands. I'm going to try to find some replays of this later if I have time.

 

[wkxkevin]

I'm gonnna give my 2 cents on the meta so far.

Pre-Home this argument made far less sense, but there's a discussion to be had now about Gholdengo's ability to block hazards with Steel getting it's immunity core back and becoming more of a threat again. More hazard removal makes it a bit more noticeable, but even me saying this is based less on actual experience with it as a threat than what Steel's new core means on paper.

This has even less reason right now because steel needs to fit the core, treads, hoodra, and gambit. There is legit no room for anything else. Yes you can run orthworm but what are you going to replace it with? If you replace corv you get shat on by fighting moves which dengo is nowhere near bulky enough to help you tank the other coverage those pokemon have. The only available options are gambit and hoodra. Replacing gambit means your matchup against ghost is hilariously bad and replacing hoodra means your spdef wall is tran which is absurdly abusable. The problem with steel is that yes, dengo + hazards + protect spam from the core sounds broken, but you don't have a good setter of hazards like skarm and ferro did in gen 8. Leave dengo alone, my man already suffered enough dropping from S to A- tier in OU. it doesn't need hate in mono.


Dire claw: Tbh, I think under the unbrella of banning things like quick claw, lax incense, bright powder, etc. We should ban dire claw. Dire claw is just poison jab with a hilarious luck factor attached to it. Yes poison-touch + dire claw gives you a 65% chance to status but even that is less than focus blast's accuracy which we all know is a dice roll. The move itself is nor broken, it's the lack of competitiveness caused by luck factor.

Ursaluna: I think the best way to take care of this thing is to have it as the first suspect test after quickbans. On the one hand you have the absurdly low speed, the weakness-filled typing that is very exploitable. On the other hand, you have TR support on both ground and normal(normal has plenty, ground has toedscruel which you can pair with band ting-lu for decent effects), you have guts+stab facade and headlong rush, you have coverage in fire punch, and on normal, you have shed tail support. The thing with ursaluna is that it's like a slightly worse melm but has much better support on the types it belongs to. Also

Incredibly difficult to fit on ground, it's a solid wallbreaker but the meta is wayyy too fast paced for it to stand out. Good mon but has never seemed like an issue to me.

Wyvern, I seriously have to disagree with you. Luna is defo worth a teamslot on ground. Even if you don't run the toedscruel TR gimmick, you have run a sizeable amount of speed EVs to outspeed a lot of stuff being more than enough to breakthough many teams for teammates like landorus, tusk, etc to clean up on. Also, the question I have is what is luna replacing that makes it not worth it. If it's shocks then you can just run a team without gravity. Ground doesn't struggle vs steel nor electric. If you are worried about corv and zapdos, remember that luna has the bulk to tank a hit and baiscally ohko or 2hko with facade or fire punch. Then there is flying. Nothing on flying switches well into luna other than corv which is very exploitable. Lando-T ain't a switch
-1 252+ Atk Guts Ursaluna Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 204-241 (53.4 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Even corv can be ran over because
252+ Atk Guts Ursaluna Fire Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 198-234 (49.6 - 58.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
and facade does close to 40% even on max def corv. In fact, you only need 140 spe EV to outspeed 0 spe corv.

Lando-I: I think the lack of rock polish and gravity as mentioned hurts a lot but can somewhat be compensated. Flying can run tailwind support and ground can run grav shocks to get it sweep. However, in terms of banning, I think luna has higher priority. Suspect this too though.

Hoopa-U: SOOO underwhelming for me. Yeah, 160 attack and 170 spa is insane. 80 hp and 130 spdef is really strong as well, but man does the 80 spe and 60 def hurt it so much. For a pokemon 4x weak to uturn, 80 speed and 60 defense is not good at all. Unlike luna, the bulk is not insane, and although it's a huge threat, its very difficult to place it in position to wallbreak effectively. Some might call this a skill issue so in the end, here is my opinion, let this be suspected as well.

 

[Azick]

I don't think Sneasler has any place in a competitive metagame. A 50% chance to status stacked to 65% when you include poison touch is, in my eyes, just ridiculous. I don't have replays bc unfortunately I do not tend to save replays but I've definitely seen it pull some games out of its ass by getting like a sleep into a para and just completely crippling the other team within two turns. Whether or not it has checks(of course it does, its a poison move and one steel type can negate the move itself and stuff like corv/ghold can take CC's ), I don't think it changes the fact that the move is simply uncompetitve and can easily "render more skillfull play irrelevant." In general due to its great speed and attack just one sleep can set you up for a Swords Dance and then I think Sneasler can run through a good portion of the meta. 16.67 is not negligible and a 50% chance for another status ensures that your not losing out on a ton if you don't happen to get the sleep. Someone made an interesting comment that I liked; While you can manage your sleeps against something as Amoongus by predicting the spores and making it go to the least useful slot you can't do the same thing with Dire Claw, its just a game of utter chance and Sneasler is such a strong Pokemon with decent dual stab typings that if you only have one decent check to it and you switch it in to a sleep thats likely going to be game changing. Overall, whether the move or Pokemon is utterly broken or not, its simply uncompetitive in my opinion and should be removed.