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Resource Simple Questions, Simple Answers Thread (read the op before posting a thread)
- Thread starter Celticpride
- Start date
Mega-swampert is in B+ not only because it is a rain sweeper and rain is doing well right now, but also because a number of factors, like its typing, bulk, immediate power and coverage, and the option to set rain for itself and sweep, make it an all around much better mon than Mega-Sceptile. MScept on the other hand has poor offensive typing, practically no bulk, and can't boost fast enough (work up) or boost the right stat (swords dance) to be a setup sweeper. Thus, MSwamp is in B+ and MScept in C-.
Swampert is simply a better Pokemon than Sceptile in OU. Sceptile finds itself walled by common pokemon such as Magearna, Celesteela, and AV Tangrowth while also facing competition as a grass type with Tangrowth and Serperior. Meanwhile Swampert is one of the best Pokemon to use on Rain because its bulky and strong enough to break through common problems to rain such as Toxapex.
Just because they're both starters doesn't mean theyre equal
edit oops already answered
I'm building a team with SD MeGallade as main wincon, but i'm torn on which coverage moves to add to the SD+CC bread-and-butter core:
1)Ice Punch + Knock Off, therefore ditching the Psychic STAB;
2)Zen Headbutt + coverage move;
Considering the current metagame trends (like Toxapex gaining popularity, Mew being everywhere, etc...), is it wise to drop the Psychic STAB to better handle LandoT/Bulu/whatever AND Mew at the same time, or is the neutral coverage offered by double STAB + coverage move (leaning towards Knock Off) too good to pass up? Or, for those who like to take a third option, should I just build the team accordingly (for example, by pairing Gallade with Z-Fly Lando, who covers Toxapex and deals with Clefable with EQ/SSSS if the need arises, allowing me to drop Zen)?
1)Ice Punch + Knock Off, therefore ditching the Psychic STAB;
2)Zen Headbutt + coverage move;
Considering the current metagame trends (like Toxapex gaining popularity, Mew being everywhere, etc...), is it wise to drop the Psychic STAB to better handle LandoT/Bulu/whatever AND Mew at the same time, or is the neutral coverage offered by double STAB + coverage move (leaning towards Knock Off) too good to pass up? Or, for those who like to take a third option, should I just build the team accordingly (for example, by pairing Gallade with Z-Fly Lando, who covers Toxapex and deals with Clefable with EQ/SSSS if the need arises, allowing me to drop Zen)?
Probably is a bit too early to tell, since it has been like 2 days since release, but I personally preffer Dual STAB + Knock Off
In general it depends on your team and what you need to to cover, as an example, if you have hard counters for the things that Zen Headbutt hits, then CC+Dual coverage should be fine
Is Swagger unbanned?
Yes, the prankster nerf + the accuracy nerf + the confusion nerf really hurt the move as a whole, making it much less exploitable than in gen 6
I feel like it could still pose a problem with Marshadow stealing the Attack boosts with Spectral Thief.
No longer a problem, Marshadow just got quickbanned :/
I posted that before the quickban.
. It boasts excellent speed with strong priority making it extremely difficult to revenge kill, it is nearly unwallable thanks to unresisted STAB coverage and a powerful Z move, and it has the ability to steal boosts while attacking to become even more threatening.
Directly from the quickban announcement. Yes spectral theif is a great move and really fuckin strong but marshadow is still a monster if you banned it. Also since when has a move been banned instead of a Pokémon in an official tier(pu chatot chatter deal is the catch I'm getting at here) that tries to keep its banlist not confusing?
Directly from the quickban announcement. Yes spectral theif is a great move and really fuckin strong but marshadow is still a monster if you banned it. Also since when has a move been banned instead of a Pokémon in an official tier(pu chatot chatter deal is the catch I'm getting at here) that tries to keep its banlist not confusing?
Yeah except banning a move from a Pokemon also opens up a ton of different potential can of worms and possibilities. At that point, why not just ban King's Shield on Aegislash? Or Judgement on a certain Arceus form? Or Dark Void on Darkrai (in earlier gens such as ORAS or BW)? Like we just don't go about banning moves on Pokemon unless they are outright uncompetitive and unhealthy (like Gen 6 Swagger for example). And I'm also not entirely convinced that Marsh Z was the only thing pushing it over the edge. Ghostium Specteral Thief is still hella strong and still allows it to muscle through many defensive "checks" to it. Also if you read the post, you would know this, but clearly you didn't, and just decided to complain about it on here instead.
But yeah, you don't ban the move, you ban the Pokemon. That's always how its been, and we aren't all of the sudden going to make the exception for something like Marshadow.
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I have "no clue what I'm talking about" because I never even got to use the Pokémon in question. You didn't even allow a weekend for us normal busy people to try it out. So yes, I did read the post as to why the decision was made, I just think we should stop trying to avoid complex bans when sometimes they do actually work. And specific moves and items have been banned in the past, so it's not unprecedented or that complex. And the number of checks significantly increases (on paper because I've never had a chance to actually test it) if you take away SSSS for example. I know it comes across as blatant ignorance and bias hatred towards the council, but it's a genuine concern that I'm expressing and it comes from good intentions. Just like the mods have good intentions but your methods often come across as blatant censorship :p but I digress. Once again something is banned and I can't do anything about it, but I'm happy to be that guy that speaks up and complains. I'm sure some people got to have fun with Marshadow for the two days it was around. Somebody write a memoir so I can relive the experience.
Play Ubers. It seems like it will have a niche there. It doesn't make sense to allow our most important tier to be unplayable any longer than it takes to make a well-reasoned decision.
Your banning philosophy discussion has been rehashed a billion times. We value a simple banlist, and we ban what is broken. The council didn't ban Marshadium Z because they can't be sure that Marshadow wouldn't be broken without it. And, reading between the lines, I think they're much more hesitant to ban a category that has been rarely banned (Z Crystals), than a category that has been frequently banned (Pokemon). Which, if you ask me, makes sense. Like it or not, this is a tradition-heavy site.
It's really quite simple. None of Marshadow's traits - including its Z-moves - are broken on their own, Marshadow just happens to be the one Pokémon that combines those particular traits to result in something unhealthy from the metagame. I don't really see a point in introducing a complex ban for that or what makes Marshadow so special compared to, say, Deoxys or Aegislash.
Yoshi
IT'S FINK DUMBASS
Banning Spectral Thief wouldn't even solve the problem. It can just use Shadow Punch. Also, why ban Marshadium Z when, like Gary said, Ghostium is very powerful too? Makes no sense. Also, a lot of people did get to try Marshadow out on the ladder and fun fact: A lot of us complained about it so...
Vincune runs Protect / Substitute / Scald / Calm Mind with a spread of 252 HP / 24 SpD / 232 Spe. The goal of the set is to use Pressure to outstall low PP Grass moves like Serperior's Leaf Storms and that kind of stuff while also PP stalling recovery moves and other low PP attacking moves. It runs enough Speed for Timid Heatran iirc so it can Sub before it gets toxic'd and the rest is invested into bulk. This explanation is kinda brief so you should probably check Suicune's on-site analysis. Oh and in case you're wondering, it's called Vincune after a user called Vince who came up with the set during wcop X or XI idr
Let me preface this by saying, the concept of the simple banlist is well-intentioned and I even agree with it. However, using "tradition" or custom as an argument to keep something the way it's been (or to influence policy at all) is never a good idea. Times and situations change. Obviously, the category of Z Crystals has rarely been banned; that's because it's only existed for one generation unlike pokemon themselves. Again, a simple banlist is better in order to not complicate things for newer players, but that logic is poor
Is this an OU-only policy because UU banned mewnium Z instead of mew?
Also, BW OU banned the combo of weather + speed boosting abilities instead of the problematic pokemon so what was the reasoning for that complex ban to happen?
They also banned Baton Pass instead of the pokemon that were abusing it. The rules change to fit the council's decision. Nothing to do with tradition or simplicity or precedent, let's be honest about this.
I realise it still has Shadow Punch, but it's a lot weaker than Spectral Thief, misses out on 2HKO's and can't be abused with Swagger.
A possible solution COULD have been to ban Marshadow from holding a Z Crystal. New concept yes, but Z-Crystals have only been around half a format so every option should be considered.
it has the same BP because of Technician
It would still be one of the best scarfers, great Choice Band user, run Bulk Up, or still run swagger and just substitute Ghostium Z in place of Marshadium Z, etc. The Z-move was not the only broken aspect.
For the baton pass ban, that would require banning a large amount of Pokémon when you could just ban the move.(banning Necrozma and Espeon? Lol)
Why are we still debating this? Gary already made the only point that mattered in that if we start nerfing particular aspects of a mon, we might as well do it for everything. We get this with every single ban, Kings Shield on Aegislash, Speed Boost on Blaziken etc. Why stop there? Why not put level caps on mons like Primal Groudon to make it fair in the tier? It becomes arbitrary and ridiculous and sets an awful and unmanageable precedent.
Remember, Marshadow had not 1, but 2 outright broken elements in Marshadium Z and Spectral Thief (which people really underestimate; like standard Shift Gear Magearna for example suddenly became an absolute liability). And even then, there is no guarantee that it wouldn't be busted afterwards, unresisted stabs, set up, great coverage moves, decent bulk (and no weaknesses to any common priority except for Pinsir and itself), incredible speed tier and reasonable offenses etc. The mon has been given the characteristics to be broken and that's all that matters here.
I realise Mewnium Z in UU has been mentioned, and I totally understand why. It does seem like the exact same case but actually isn't. Mew even with its Z move was still only borderline busted; it wasn't anywhere near the level of Marshadow's impact in the tier and it wasn't a case of being at a disadvantage if you didn't run it. We've seen Mew perform in UU before this generation and while it was great, it wasn't some broken godly mon and the power creep only helps to maintain that fact. With that metagame knowledge, you can see that Mewnium Z was undoubtedly the only broken factor. Unlike Mew, Marshadow could run other sets which were still too good; making impossible to outright infer that one aspect was the most broken part.
It's a shame if some people didn't get more time, but the tier leaders have a duty to their tier, and that is to make sure it is fair and balanced, and to act quickly and accordingly to ensure that. This is why quickbans exist, and should continue to exist.
Ultimately arguing about it won't change it, generally PMing the tier leaders is a better bet for this. So let's try to keep things relevant :)
And to do that, has Mega Lopunny been as threatening as it was last gen? Not had time to test it yet
Remember, Marshadow had not 1, but 2 outright broken elements in Marshadium Z and Spectral Thief (which people really underestimate; like standard Shift Gear Magearna for example suddenly became an absolute liability). And even then, there is no guarantee that it wouldn't be busted afterwards, unresisted stabs, set up, great coverage moves, decent bulk (and no weaknesses to any common priority except for Pinsir and itself), incredible speed tier and reasonable offenses etc. The mon has been given the characteristics to be broken and that's all that matters here.
I realise Mewnium Z in UU has been mentioned, and I totally understand why. It does seem like the exact same case but actually isn't. Mew even with its Z move was still only borderline busted; it wasn't anywhere near the level of Marshadow's impact in the tier and it wasn't a case of being at a disadvantage if you didn't run it. We've seen Mew perform in UU before this generation and while it was great, it wasn't some broken godly mon and the power creep only helps to maintain that fact. With that metagame knowledge, you can see that Mewnium Z was undoubtedly the only broken factor. Unlike Mew, Marshadow could run other sets which were still too good; making impossible to outright infer that one aspect was the most broken part.
It's a shame if some people didn't get more time, but the tier leaders have a duty to their tier, and that is to make sure it is fair and balanced, and to act quickly and accordingly to ensure that. This is why quickbans exist, and should continue to exist.
Ultimately arguing about it won't change it, generally PMing the tier leaders is a better bet for this. So let's try to keep things relevant :)
And to do that, has Mega Lopunny been as threatening as it was last gen? Not had time to test it yet