1v1 Sub Torrent Greninja - Update [QC 3/3] [GP 2/2]

Synonimous · Sep 7, 2019

A Substitute + Torrent set can also be used to beat threats to the Choice Specs set like specially defensive Mega Charizard X and Y, Mega Metagross, and Type: Null. By using the increased utility from forgoing coverage moves for options like Substitute, Work Up, and Taunt, Greninja can pump out a huge boosted Hydro Cannon while still using status moves to lock down foes.

[SET]
name: Substitute + Torrent
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Hydro Cannon
move 3: Taunt
move 4: Work Up / Water Shuriken / Haze
item: Petaya Berry / Waterium Z
ability: Torrent
nature: Timid
evs: 76 HP / 108 Def / 148 SpA / 176 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

Substitute is required for this set to function, allowing Greninja to safely defeat both Mega Charizard X and Y by using Substitute until Torrent and Petaya Berry are activated. Hydro Cannon is also a must-have, sporting a huge 150-Base Power on top of STAB, a Torrent boost, and Petaya Berry or Waterium Z to do incredible amounts of damage. Taunt allows Greninja to shut down stall Pokemon and Substitute users that would wall it, such as Mega Audino and Jumpluff . Work Up helps Greninja defeat Pokemon like Type: Null and non-Hyper Voice Mega Gardevoir that would attempt to boost their defenses to beat it. Alternatively, Water Shuriken can be used to beat Sturdy users like Golem as well as potentially Donphan and Crustle. This move is especially good when paired with a Petaya Berry, allowing Greninja to KO most Sturdy users in three hits instead of four. Haze can also be used as an alternative to Work Up, removing the foe's stat boosts, as well as guaranteeing a win against Dragon Dance Mega Charizard X. Ice Beam can also be used to beat Infestation Jumpluff and non-Choice Scarf Garchomp, but it loses so many other matchups that it's not worth using most of the time. Waterfall can also be used in conjunction with Work Up, as it guarantees a win against other Pokemon that would try to boost their Special Defense like Magearna and allows Greninja to run a mixed offensive set using Waterium Z.

Set Details
========

76 HP EVs and 108 Defense EVs prevent a Mega Charizard X's Flame Charge from breaking Greninja's Substitute. Additionally, the 76 HP EVs mean that Petaya Berry activates after 3 Substitutes, protecting Greninja from many priority moves that it resists. In addition to this, Greninja can now take 3 Seismic Tosses from Registeel, guaranteeing a win in this matchup. 176 Speed EVs with a Timid nature allow Greninja to outspeed maximum Speed Mega Lucario. Although the Mega Lucario matchup isn't a guaranteed win for Greninja, you lose nothing by investing the necessary EVs to outspeed it. The rest of the EVs are put into Special Attack to hit as hard as possible. Petaya Berry and Torrent in conjunction with Substitute allow Greninja to repeatedly use Substitute until the Berry and ability activate, allowing it to unleash a massively boosted Hydro Cannon. Waterium Z is an alternative that provides more consistency and power right out of the gate at the cost of total power; despite the increased accuracy, certain matchups such as Mega Swampert, Magearna, and Mega Gardevoir are made less consistent, making Petaya Berry generally the better option. It also improves certain matchups against Substitute users like Jumpluff, where you need to hit two turns in a row to win.

Usage Tips
========

Greninja should be sent out against slower Pokemon without a resistance to Water and stall Pokemon that are weak to Taunt. Avoid using Greninja against Pokemon that can bypass its Substitute like Meloetta. Unless the foe is exclusively a status user like Jumpluff or Type: Null, on turn 1, use Substitute. If the opponent elects to use a Speed-boosting move like Flame Charge or Dragon Dance, keep using Substitute until Greninja hits 25% health, after which you should use Hydro Cannon. If a foe such as Magearna or Mega Gardevoir tries to boost their Special Defense, use Work Up until both Pokemon are at +6, and then use Substitute until at 25% health. Certain matchups like Magearna are a toss-up, as if their Special Defense boosts reach +6, the benefit from Petaya Berry is lost. Against Pokemon like Mega Gardevoir and Tapu Lele that try to boost their Special Defense, use Substitute and then boost up with Work Up in order to win. If running Haze, use it to mitigate stat boosts from moves like Dragon Dance and Calm Mind. Make sure to not Haze away your Petaya Berry boost though! Only use Water Shuriken against Sturdy users. Unless the foe uses multi-hit moves and will faint to an unboosted Water Shuriken, like Golem, use Substitute to reach 25% health to get the Torrent and Petaya Berry boosts and then use it to hopefully KO the foe. If an opposing Pokemon uses a move like Shell Smash to boost their Speed, keep using Substitute, as they cannot eliminate Greninja if it is behind a Substitute. Between Petaya Berry and Waterium Z, they play largely similarly except against status users and Pokemon that can survive a hit from a Petaya Berry-boosted Hydro Cannon. Waterium Z allows you to use Hydro Vortex followed by Hydro Cannon the next turn, beating some Substitute users. In addition to this, with Petaya Berry, you cannot let the foe reach +6, as the advantage gained from Petaya Berry is lost. However, you can safely get to +6 with Waterium Z, as you still keep the damage boost.

Team Options
========

Pokemon that can deal with common threats to this set like Dragonite, Mega Gyarados, Mega Lopunny, and Choice Scarf users such as Landorus-T, Porygon-Z, and Sawk are very good partners. Examples include Magearna, Mega Metagross, and Tapu Lele, all of which have their weaknesses to Mega Charizard X and Y, Magearna, and Jumpluff covered by Greninja. Pokemon such as Zeraora and Magnezone that can deal with the bulky Water-types that typically beat Greninja like Tapu Fini and Primarina are great teammates as well and appreciate having their matchups against Mega Charizard X and Y and non-Choice Scarf Landorus-T covered.

[CREDITS]
- Written by: [[Synonimous, 457703]]
- Quality checked by: [[Alakazam, 276708], [Freddy Kyogre, 321529], [Osra, 239997]]
- Grammar checked by: [[deetah, 297659], [Rabia, 336073]]

edudittA · Sep 7, 2019

AMQC
Set

- I think HCannon / Haze / Sub with Ice Beam or Taunt or Dark Pulse or Water Shuriken would be better as a set...

- I'd include Haze as an option to deal with Type Null and stuff. In fact, Haze is a better option IMO.

- Taunt is not always as useful when Haze is around.

Moves:

- Haze does both, and allows it to beat Mega Slowbro with Petaya Berry Dark Pulse.

Set Details:

- Pluff MU isn't relevant, since you don't KO it with anything with your current moveset.

Team Options

- Greninja doesn't beat Jumpluff; this Greninja doesn't at least

Synonimous · Sep 7, 2019

Wrath of Alakazam said:
AMQC
Set
- I'd include Haze as an option to deal with Type Null and stuff. In fact, Haze is a better option IMO.

- Taunt is not always as useful when Haze is around

- I think HCannon / Haze / Sub with Ice Beam or Taunt or Dark Pulse or Water Shuriken would be better as a set...

Set Details
- Pluff MU isn't relevant since you don't KO it with anything

Team Options
- Greninja doesn't beat Jumpluff; this Greninja doesn't at least

So yeah, I forgot Haze, will include it in the analysis, but Taunt beats Null lmao. In addition to this, without taunt haze actually loses a to an optimally played type:null, + it's a nonbo with Petaya.
Taunt does basically the same thing most of the time
I've run into this set on ladder, it's not good necessarily. This is the optimal set for beating mons that try to set up.
You can set up on pluff, it also struggles unless it's the infestation set.
See above
I have implemented the relevant parts of it.

Ginger Princess · Sep 8, 2019

Bolded is additions, ~~strikethrough~~ is stuff that should be removed, underline needs to be edited in some way, red is comments. All information I bring are based on 1630 Usage stats (considering anything at or above 6% as of August 2019 usage relevant) and Calcs.

I know I said you don't need a Overview but include one sentence on what sub torrent does so we can plug it into the gren overview at the end

[SET]
name: Sub Torrent
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Hydro Cannon
move 3: Work Up / Water Shuriken / Haze
move 4: Taunt switch move 3 and move 4 since Taunt is used on all sets/clearly more important
item: Petaya Berry / Waterium Z
Ability: Torrent
Nature: Timid
EVs: ~~12 HP / 156 Def~~ / 180 SpA / 160 Spe 28 HP / 140 Def is slightly more optimal, maintains HP divisible by 4 and 252 Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Flame Charge vs. 28 HP / 140 Def Greninja: 61-72 (20.8 - 24.6%) -- guaranteed 5HKO Also consider switching EVs to 164 Spa / 176 Spe in order to gain a small chance against Mega Lucario, unless you lose a good mu bc of 16 less speed, but if not thats probably more optimal

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

Substitute is required for this set to function, allowing Greninja to safely defeat both Charizards by using Substitute until Torrent and Petaya Berry are activated.
Hydro Cannon is also a must have, sporting a huge 150 Base Power on top of STAB, Torrent, and either Petaya Berry or Waterium Z to do incredible amounts of damage.
Work Up helps Greninja defeat Pokemon like Magearna or non-Hyper Voice Mega Gardevoir that would attempt to set up defensively in order to beat it. This is especially crucial as due to Hydro Cannon's recharge, in order to win Greninja must OHKO the opponent.
In conjunction with the Work Up, Taunt allows Greninja to shut down stall Pokemon or Substitute users that would wall it, such as Type: Null or Jumpluff.
Alternatively, Water Shuriken can be used to beat Sturdy users like Golem, as well as potentially beating Donphan, Crustle, ~~or Golem~~ (especially good with Petaya, allowing it to kill Donphan with 3 hits instead of 4).
Haze can also be used as an alternative to Work Up, mitigating the opponents stat boosts both defensively and offensively as well as guaranteeing the Dragon Dance Charizard Mega X Matchup
Ice Beam can also be used to beat Infestation Jumpluff and Groundium Garchomp, but it loses so many other matchups that it's not worth using most of the time.

Set Details
========

~~156~~ 140 Defense EVs prevent a max Attack Jolly Charizard Mega X's Flame Charge from breaking its Substitute.
12 28 HP EVs means that Petaya Berry activates after 3 Substitutes, protecting Greninja from many priority moves that it resists (if one is running Waterium Z, make sure to run 0 HP and 156 Def, putting the 12 leftover EVs into Special Attack, as you get 4 uses of Substitute and Flame Charge still doesn't break it).
160 speed EVs with a Timid nature allow Greninja to outspeed max base 110 Speed Pokemon such as Mega Metagross and Jumpluff. change if we decide to change speed
where is Special Attack? Even if its leftovers you should mention that it is leftovers and used to hit as hard as possible
Petaya Berry and Torrent in conjunction with Substitute allow Greninja to repeatedly use Substititue until the Berry and Ability activate, allowing Greninja to unleash a massively boosted Hydro Cannon.
Waterium Z is an alternative that provides more consistency and power right out of the gate, at the cost of total power; despite the increased accuracy certain matchups such as Mega Swampert, Magearna, and Mega Gardevoir are made less consistent, making Petaya Berry (generally) the better option.

Usage Tips
========

Send Greninja out against Pokemon like specially defensive Mega Charizard X, Mega Charizard Y, and Magearna ~~that would beat the more commonly-used Choice Specs set with a special defense investment, but that this set breaks~~ that Greninja lures in, we don't talk about different sets in analyses as well as most Stall Pokemon ~~that would typically beat Greninja~~ like Type:Null or Registeel. Unless the opponent is exclusively a status user like Jumpluff or Type: Null, use Substitute. If they use a speed boosting move like Flame Charge or Dragon Dance, just keep Subbing until you hit 25%, after which you can use your Hydro Cannon. If they try to boost their Special Defense, such as Magearna or Mega Gardevoir, just use Work Up until both Pokemon are at +6, and then sub until 25%.
Where is Haze or Water Shuriken in this? Describe what to do against 'exclusively status users like Jumpluff or Type: Null', specifically mention how the play against Type: Null is to Work Up until it runs out of Confide then body it, not an intuitive matchup.
give special mention to avoid sound users who can bypass sub, like Hyper Voice Mega Gardevoir, Meloetta, and bulky Volcarona.
describe the difference in playstyle required by waterium and petaya. You already mentioned that you need to play completely differently against Magearna with petaya vs waterium, are there any other relevant meta examples?

Team Options
========

Pokemon that can deal with common faster threats to this set like Dragonite, Mega Gyarados, ~~Scarf~~, Porygon-Z, ~~and~~ Mega Lopunny, and Choice Scarf users such as Landorus-T and Sawk are very good partners. Examples include Magearna, Mega-Metagross, and Tapu Lele, who have their Mega Charizard, Magearna, and Jumpluff weaknesses covered by Greninja.
Pokemon that can deal with the bulky Water-types that typically beat Greninja such as? are great as well, such as Zeraora and Magnezone, who have their Mega Charizard and non-Choice Scarf Landorus-Therian matchups improved.

Oh I know I forgot this but add a credits section so we can add you to the overall gren analysis later

[CREDITS]
- Written by: [[Synonimous, 457703]]
- Quality checked by: [[Alakazam, 276708], [<username2>, <userid2>], [<username3>, <userid3>]]
- Grammar checked by: [[<username1>, <userid1>], [<username2>, <userid2>]]

implement then tag me

Ginger Princess · Sep 10, 2019

Second part of qc

A Substitute Torrent set can also be used to beat threats to the Specs set like Spdef Charizard-Mega, Magearna, and Type: Null

[SET]
name: Sub Torrent
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Hydro Cannon
move 3: Taunt
move 4: Work Up / Water Shuriken / Haze
item: Petaya Berry / Waterium Z
Ability: Torrent
Nature: Timid
EVs: 28 HP / 140 Def / 164 SpA / 176 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

Substitute is required for this set to function, allowing Greninja to safely defeat both Charizards by using Substitute until Torrent and Petaya Berry are activated.
Hydro Cannon is also a must have, sporting a huge 150 Base Power on top of STAB, Torrent, and either Petaya Berry or Waterium Z to do incredible amounts of damage.
Work Up helps Greninja defeat Pokemon like Magearna or non-Hyper Voice Mega Gardevoir that would attempt to set up defensively in order to beat it. This is especially crucial as due to Hydro Cannon's recharge, in order to win Greninja must OHKO the opponent.
In conjunction with the Work Up, Taunt allows Greninja to shut down stall Pokemon or Substitute users that would wall it, such as Type: Null again would change example since you never should taunt against Type: Null, work up only or Jumpluff.
Alternatively, Water Shuriken can be used to beat Sturdy users like Golem, as well as potentially beating Donphan and Crustle (especially good with Petaya, allowing it to kill most Sturdy users with 3 hits instead of 4).
Haze can also be used as an alternative to Work Up, mitigating the opponents stat boosts both defensively and offensively as well as guaranteeing the Dragon Dance Charizard Mega X Matchup.
Ice Beam can also be used to beat Infestation Jumpluff and non-Scarf Garchomp, but it loses so many other matchups that it's not worth using most of the time.
Waterfall can also be used in conjunction with Work Up, as it guarantees a win against other Pokemon who would try to boost their Spdef like Magearna doesn't Waterium already beat Mag?, allowing Greninja to run a mixed offense set.

Set Details
========

140 Defense EVs prevent a max Attack Jolly Charizard Mega X's Flame Charge from breaking its Substitute.
28 HP EVs means that Petaya Berry activates after 3 Substitutes, protecting Greninja from many priority moves that it resists (if one is running Waterium Z, make sure to run 0 HP and 156 Def, putting the 12 leftover EVs into Special Attack, as you get 4 uses of Substitute and Flame Charge still doesn't break it).
176 speed EVs with a Timid nature allow Greninja to outspeed max speed Mega Lucario. Although the Mega Lucario Matchup isn't guaranteed, you lose nothing EVing for it anyway.
The rest of the EVs are put into Special Attack to hit as hard as possible.
Petaya Berry and Torrent in conjunction with Substitute allow Greninja to repeatedly use Substititue until the Berry and Ability activate, allowing Greninja to unleash a massively boosted Hydro Cannon.
Waterium Z is an alternative that provides more consistency and power right out of the gate, at the cost of total power; despite the increased accuracy certain matchups such as Mega Swampert, Magearna, and Mega Gardevoir are made less consistent, making Petaya Berry (generally) the better option.

Usage Tips
========

Send Greninja out against Pokemon like specially defensive Mega Charizard X, Mega Charizard Y, and non-Taunt Tapu Lele that Greninja lures, as well as most Stall Pokemon like Type: Null or Registeel.
Avoid using Greninja against sound users like Hyper Voice Mega Gardevoir, Meloetta, and bulky Volcarona, who can tank an unboosted ~~Hyper Beam~~ Hydro Cannon and kill Greninja through a Substitute.
Unless the opponent is exclusively a status user like Jumpluff or Type: Null, on turn 1 use Substitute. If they use a speed boosting move like Flame Charge or Dragon Dance, just keep Subbing until you hit 25%, after which you can use your Hydro Cannon. If they try to boost their Special Defense, such as Magearna or Mega Gardevoir, just use Work Up until both Pokemon are at +6, and then sub until 25%. Certain Matchups like Magearna must risk a 50/50, as if ~~they~~ their Special Defense boosts reach +6 the benefit from Petaya Berry is lost.
Against Type: Null and other Confide users, you can just PP Stall their confide with Work Up.
If one is using Haze, use it to mitigate stat boost from moves like Dragon Dance or Calm Mind, but not Flame Charge, as they'll still gain the boost back after they break your sub.
With Water Shuriken, only use it against Sturdy users. Unless the opponent uses multihit moves and will die to an unboosted Water Shuriken like Golem, sub down to 25% to get the Torrent (and Petaya) boost and then use it to hopefully KO the opponent. If an opponent uses a move like Shell Smash to boost their speed, just keep using substitute as they cannot kill you if you are behind a Substitute.
Between Petaya and Waterium, they play largely similarly except against status users and Pokemon that can survive a hit from a Petaya Berry boosted Hydro Cannon. Waterium Z allows you to Z Move and then Hydro Cannon the next turn, beating some Substitute users. In addition to this, with Petaya, you cannot let the opponent reach +6 as then the advantage gained from Petaya Berry is lost. However, you can safely get to +6 with Waterium as you still keep the damage boost.

Team Options
========

Pokemon that can deal with common threats to this set like Dragonite, Mega Gyarados, Porygon-Z, Mega Lopunny, and Choice Scarf users such as Landorus-T and Sawk are very good partners. Examples include Magearna, Mega-Metagross, and Tapu Lele, who have their Mega Charizard, Magearna, and Jumpluff weaknesses covered by Greninja.
Pokemon that can deal with the bulky Water-types that typically beat Greninja like Tapu Fini or Primarina are great as well, such as Zeraora and Magnezone, who have their Mega Charizard and non-Choice Scarf Landorus-Therian matchups improved.

[CREDITS]
- Written by: [[Synonimous, 457703]]
- Quality checked by: [[Alakazam, 276708], [<username2>, <userid2>], [<username3>, <userid3>]]
- Grammar checked by: [[<username1>, <userid1>], [<username2>, <userid2>]]

implement then 1/3

Synonimous · Sep 12, 2019

/implemented

Ginger Princess · Sep 12, 2019

Synonimous said:
/implemented

qc 1/3

pqs · Oct 1, 2019

AM QC Comment Add Remove
don't get mad at me if i do some gp stuff by accident ;w;

Synonimous said:
A Substitute Torrent set can also be used to beat threats to the Specs set like Spdef Charizard-Mega, Magearna, and Type: Null

[SET]
name: Sub Torrent
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Hydro Cannon
move 3: Taunt
move 4: Work Up / Water Shuriken / Haze
item: Petaya Berry / Waterium Z
Ability: Torrent
Nature: Timid
EVs: 28 HP / 140 Def / 164 SpA / 176 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

Substitute is required for this set to function, allowing Greninja to safely defeat both Charizards by using Substitute until Torrent and Petaya Berry are activated. Can you give more examples than just Mega Charizard X and Y?

Hydro Cannon is also a must have, sporting a huge 150 Base Power on top of STAB, Torrent, and either Petaya Berry or Waterium Z to do incredible amounts of damage.

Work Up helps Greninja defeat Pokemon like Magearna or non-Hyper Voice Mega Gardevoir that would attempt to set up defensively in order to beat it. This is especially crucial as due to Hydro Cannon's recharge, in order to win Greninja must OHKO the opponent.

In conjunction with the Work Up, Taunt allows Greninja to shut down stall Pokemon or Substitute users that would wall it, such as Jumpluff or Mega Audino.

Alternatively, Water Shuriken can be used to beat Sturdy users like Golem, as well as potentially beating Donphan and non-Rock Blast Crustle (especially good with Petaya, allowing it to kill most Sturdy users with 3 hits instead of 4). Battling versus Rock Blast Crustle is just very unreliable for both sides.

Haze can also be used as an alternative to Work Up, mitigating the opponents stat boosts both defensively and offensively as well as guaranteeing the Dragon Dance Charizard Mega X Matchup.

Ice Beam can also be used to beat Infestation Jumpluff and non-Scarf Garchomp Groundium Z Garchomp, but it loses so many other matchups that it's not worth using most of the time. I know TDA mentioned this but you seemed to have forgotten to have implemented this.

Waterfall can also be used in conjunction with Work Up, as it guarantees a win against other Pokemon who would try to boost their Spdef like Unaware Clefable, allowing Greninja to run a mixed offense set. Would recommend moving both of these to OO, as their niche only allows them to beat 1 or 2 Pokemon.

Set Details
========

140 Defense EVs and 28 HP EVs prevent a max Attack Jolly Charizard Mega X's Flame Charge from breaking its Substitute.

28 HP EVs means that Petaya Berry activates after 3 Substitutes, protecting Greninja from many priority moves that it resists (if one is running Waterium Z, make sure to run 0 HP and 156 Def, putting the 12 leftover EVs into Special Attack, as you get 4 uses of Substitute and Flame Charge still doesn't break it).

176 speed EVs with a Timid nature allow Greninja to outspeed max speed Mega Lucario. Although the Mega Lucario Matchup isn't guaranteed, you lose nothing EVing for it anyways.

The rest of the EVs are put into Special Attack to hit as hard as possible.

Petaya Berry and Torrent in conjunction with Substitute allow Greninja to repeatedly use Substititue until the Berry and Ability activate, allowing Greninja to unleash a massively boosted Hydro Cannon.

Waterium Z is an alternative that provides more consistency and power right out of the gate, at the cost of total power; despite the increased accuracy certain matchups such as Mega Swampert, Magearna, and Mega Gardevoir are made less consistent, making Petaya Berry (generally) the better option.

Usage Tips
========

Send Greninja out against Pokemon like specially defensive Mega Charizard X, Mega Charizard Y, and non-Taunt Tapu Lele that Greninja lures, as well as most Stall Pokemon like Type: Null or Registeel. Send it out against any Mega Charizard X, doesn't need to be spdef.

Avoid using Greninja against sound users like Hyper Voice Mega Gardevoir, Meloetta, and bulky Volcarona, who can tank an unboosted Hydro Cannon and kill Greninja through a Substitute.

Unless the opponent is exclusively a status user like Jumpluff or Type: Null, on turn 1 use Substitute. If they use a speed boosting move like Flame Charge or Dragon Dance, just keep Subbing until you hit 25%, after which you can use your Hydro Cannon. If they try to boost their Special Defense, such as Magearna or Mega Gardevoir, just use Work Up until both Pokemon are at +6, and then sub until 25%. Certain Matchups like Magearna must risk a 50/50, as if their Special Defense boosts reach +6 the benefit from Petaya Berry is lost.

Against Type: Null and other Confide users, you can just PP Stall their confide with Work Up. The only other good Confide user is Mega Altaria, and that just kills you with Hyper Voice.

If one is using Haze, use it to mitigate stat boost from moves like Dragon Dance or Calm Mind, but not Flame Charge, as they'll still gain the boost back after they break your sub. Specify that the user is the Charizard for Flame Charge

With Water Shuriken, only use it against Sturdy users. Unless the opponent uses multihit moves and will die to an unboosted Water Shuriken like Golem, sub down to 25% to get the Torrent (and Petaya) boost and then use it to hopefully KO the opponent. If an opponent uses a move like Shell Smash to boost their speed, just keep using substitute as they cannot kill you if you are behind a Substitute.

Between Petaya and Waterium, they play largely similarly except against status users and Pokemon that can survive a hit from a Petaya Berry boosted Hydro Cannon. Waterium Z allows you to Z Move and then Hydro Cannon the next turn, beating some Substitute users. In addition to this, with Petaya, you cannot let the opponent reach +6 as then the advantage gained from Petaya Berry is lost. However, you can safely get to +6 with Waterium as you still keep the damage boost.

Team Options
========

Pokemon that can deal with common threats to this set like Dragonite, Mega Gyarados, Porygon-Z, Mega Lopunny, and Choice Scarf users such as Landorus-T and Sawk are very good partners. Examples include Magearna, Mega-Metagross, and Tapu Lele, who have their Mega Charizard, Magearna, and Jumpluff weaknesses covered by Greninja. Landorus-T doesn't run Choice Scarf as its main set iirc, would recommend specifying or removing.

Pokemon that can deal with the bulky Water-types that typically beat Greninja like Tapu Fini or Primarina are great as well, such as Zeraora and Magnezone, who have their Mega Charizard and non-Choice Scarf Landorus-Therian matchups improved.

[CREDITS]
- Written by: [[Synonimous, 457703]]
- Quality checked by: [[Alakazam, 276708], [<username2>, <userid2>], [<username3>, <userid3>]]
- Grammar checked by: [[<username1>, <userid1>], [<username2>, <userid2>]]

Ginger Princess · Oct 4, 2019

pqs commentary in bold

A Substitute Torrent set can also be used to beat threats to the Specs set like Spdef Charizard-Mega, Magearna, and Type: Null

[SET]
name: Sub Torrent
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Hydro Cannon
move 3: Taunt
move 4: Work Up / Water Shuriken / Haze
item: Petaya Berry / Waterium Z
Ability: Torrent
Nature: Timid
EVs: 28 HP / 140 Def / 164 SpA / 176 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

Substitute is required for this set to function, allowing Greninja to safely defeat both Charizards by using Substitute until Torrent and Petaya Berry are activated. Can you give more examples than just Mega Charizard X and Y?
Hydro Cannon is also a must have, sporting a huge 150 Base Power on top of STAB, Torrent, and either Petaya Berry or Waterium Z to do incredible amounts of damage.
Work Up helps Greninja defeat Pokemon like Magearna or non-Hyper Voice Mega Gardevoir that would attempt to set up defensively in order to beat it. This is especially crucial as due to Hydro Cannon's recharge, in order to win Greninja must OHKO the opponent.
In conjunction with the Work Up, Taunt allows Greninja to shut down stall Pokemon or Substitute users that would wall it, such as Jumpluff or Mega Audino.
Alternatively, Water Shuriken can be used to beat Sturdy users like Golem, as well as potentially beating Donphan and non-Rock Blast this doesn't need to be specified, as Water Shuriken can still potentially beat Rock Blast Crustle, which was what he was saying, not that it will always beat Crustle. Mu is unreliable either way, if they eq t1 on sub, z rock t2, then eq again Crustle (especially good with Petaya, allowing it to kill most Sturdy users with 3 hits instead of 4). Battling versus Rock Blast Crustle is just very unreliable for both sides.
Haze can also be used as an alternative to Work Up, mitigating the opponents stat boosts both defensively and offensively as well as guaranteeing the Dragon Dance Charizard Mega X Matchup.
Ice Beam can also be used to beat Infestation Jumpluff and non-Scarf Garchomp Groundium Z Garchomp, but it loses so many other matchups that it's not worth using most of the time. I know TDA mentioned this but you seemed to have forgotten to have implemented this.
Waterfall can also be used in conjunction with Work Up, as it guarantees a win against other Pokemon who would try to boost their Spdef like Unaware Clefable, allowing Greninja to run a mixed offense set. Would recommend moving both of these to OO, as their niche only allows them to beat 1 or 2 Pokemon.

Set Details
========

140 Defense EVs and 28 HP EVs prevent a max Attack Jolly Charizard Mega X's Flame Charge from breaking its Substitute.
28 HP EVs means that Petaya Berry activates after 3 Substitutes, protecting Greninja from many priority moves that it resists (if one is running Waterium Z, make sure to run 0 HP and 156 Def, putting the 12 leftover EVs into Special Attack, as you get 4 uses of Substitute and Flame Charge still doesn't break it).
176 speed EVs with a Timid nature allow Greninja to outspeed max speed Mega Lucario. Although the Mega Lucario Matchup isn't guaranteed, you lose nothing EVing for it anyways.
The rest of the EVs are put into Special Attack to hit as hard as possible.
Petaya Berry and Torrent in conjunction with Substitute allow Greninja to repeatedly use Substititue until the Berry and Ability activate, allowing Greninja to unleash a massively boosted Hydro Cannon.
Waterium Z is an alternative that provides more consistency and power right out of the gate, at the cost of total power; despite the increased accuracy certain matchups such as Mega Swampert, Magearna, and Mega Gardevoir are made less consistent, making Petaya Berry (generally) the better option.

Usage Tips
========

Send Greninja out against Pokemon like specially defensive Mega Charizard X, Mega Charizard Y, and non-Taunt Tapu Lele that Greninja lures, as well as most Stall Pokemon like Type: Null or Registeel. Send it out against any Mega Charizard X, doesn't need to be spdef.
Avoid using Greninja against sound users like Hyper Voice Mega Gardevoir, Meloetta, and bulky Volcarona, who can tank an unboosted Hydro Cannon and kill Greninja through a Substitute.
Unless the opponent is exclusively a status user like Jumpluff or Type: Null, on turn 1 use Substitute. If they use a speed boosting move like Flame Charge or Dragon Dance, just keep Subbing until you hit 25%, after which you can use your Hydro Cannon. If they try to boost their Special Defense, such as Magearna or Mega Gardevoir, just use Work Up until both Pokemon are at +6, and then sub until 25%. Certain Matchups like Magearna must risk a 50/50, as if their Special Defense boosts reach +6 the benefit from Petaya Berry is lost.
Against Type: Null and other Confide users, you can just PP Stall their confide with Work Up. The only other good Confide user is Mega Altaria, and that just kills you with Hyper Voice.
If one is using Haze, use it to mitigate stat boost from moves like Dragon Dance or Calm Mind, but not Flame Charge, as they'll still gain the boost back after they break your sub. Specify that the user is the Charizard for Flame Charge
With Water Shuriken, only use it against Sturdy users. Unless the opponent uses multihit moves and will die to an unboosted Water Shuriken like Golem, sub down to 25% to get the Torrent (and Petaya) boost and then use it to hopefully KO the opponent. If an opponent uses a move like Shell Smash to boost their speed, just keep using substitute as they cannot kill you if you are behind a Substitute.
Between Petaya and Waterium, they play largely similarly except against status users and Pokemon that can survive a hit from a Petaya Berry boosted Hydro Cannon. Waterium Z allows you to Z Move and then Hydro Cannon the next turn, beating some Substitute users. In addition to this, with Petaya, you cannot let the opponent reach +6 as then the advantage gained from Petaya Berry is lost. However, you can safely get to +6 with Waterium as you still keep the damage boost.

Team Options
========

Pokemon that can deal with common threats to this set like Dragonite, Mega Gyarados, Porygon-Z, Mega Lopunny, and Choice Scarf users such as Landorus-T and Sawk are very good partners. Examples include Magearna, Mega-Metagross, and Tapu Lele, who have their Mega Charizard, Magearna, and Jumpluff weaknesses covered by Greninja. Landorus-T doesn't run Choice Scarf as its main set iirc, would recommend specifying or removing. So Flyinium and Choice Scarf are roughly the same usage. | Flyinium Z 34.337% |
| Choice Scarf 33.922% both viable in tours. When making these kinds of points always judge with Usage Tips, to reconfirm what you're likely to find, or tour replays if you want to. https://www.smogon.com/stats/2019-09/moveset/gen71v1-1630.txt
Pokemon that can deal with the bulky Water-types that typically beat Greninja like Tapu Fini or Primarina are great as well, such as Zeraora and Magnezone, who have their Mega Charizard and non-Choice Scarf Landorus-Therian matchups improved.

[CREDITS]
- Written by: [[Synonimous, 457703]]
- Quality checked by: [[Alakazam, 276708], [<username2>, <userid2>], [<username3>, <userid3>]]
- Grammar checked by: [[<username1>, <userid1>], [<username2>, <userid2>]]

p good.

Freddy Kyogre · Oct 20, 2019

you can figure it out just look for bold / underline

A Substitute Torrent set can also be used to beat threats to the Specs set like Spdef Charizard-Mega, Magearna, (normal specs does not currently lose to analysis magearna) and Type: Null. Try to mention what changed in specific (work up or taunt or more power) to beat these threats maybe

[SET]
name: Sub Torrent
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Hydro Cannon
move 3: Taunt
move 4: Work Up / Water Shuriken / Haze
item: Petaya Berry / Waterium Z
Ability: Torrent
Nature: Timid
EVs: 28 HP / 140 Def / 164 SpA / 176 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

Substitute is required for this set to function, allowing Greninja to safely defeat both Charizards by using Substitute until Torrent and Petaya Berry are activated.
Hydro Cannon is also a must have, sporting a huge 150 Base Power on top of STAB, Torrent, and either Petaya Berry or Waterium Z to do incredible amounts of damage.
Work Up helps Greninja defeat Pokemon like Magearna (see earlier, come up with another example) or non-Hyper Voice Mega Gardevoir that would attempt to set up defensively in order to beat it. This is especially crucial as due to Hydro Cannon's recharge, in order to win Greninja must OHKO the opponent.
In conjunction with the Work Up, Taunt allows Greninja to shut down stall Pokemon or Substitute users that would wall it, such as Jumpluff grass z infestation is becoming more popular, maybe replace with type:null or something else or Mega Audino.
Alternatively, Water Shuriken can be used to beat Sturdy users like Golem, as well as potentially beating Donphan and Crustle (especially good with Petaya, allowing it to kill most Sturdy users with 3 hits instead of 4).
Haze can also be used as an alternative to Work Up, ~~mitigating~~ removing, more clear as it doesn't really "mitigate" the opponents stat boosts both defensively and offensively as well as guaranteeing the Dragon Dance Charizard Mega X Matchup.
Ice Beam can also be used to beat Infestation Jumpluff and non-Scarf Garchomp, but it loses so many other matchups that it's not worth using most of the time.
Waterfall can also be used in conjunction with Work Up, as it guarantees a win against other Pokemon who would try to boost their Spdef like Unaware Clefable, allowing Greninja to run a mixed offense set. 252 Atk Greninja Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Clefable: 136-162 (34.5 - 41.1%) -- 64.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery even with max attack it doesnt really though, not reliably even with torrent

Set Details
========

140 Defense EVs prevent a max Attack Jolly Charizard Mega X's Flame Charge from breaking its Substitute.
28 HP EVs means that Petaya Berry activates after 3 Substitutes, protecting Greninja from many priority moves that it resists (if one is running Waterium Z, make sure to run 0 HP and 156 Def, putting the 12 leftover EVs into Special Attack, as you get 4 uses of Substitute and Flame Charge still doesn't break it). more on this in qc chat
176 speed EVs with a Timid nature allow Greninja to outspeed max speed Mega Lucario. Although the Mega Lucario Matchup isn't guaranteed, you lose nothing EVing for it anyways.
The rest of the EVs are put into Special Attack to hit as hard as possible.
Petaya Berry and Torrent in conjunction with Substitute allow Greninja to repeatedly use Substititue (spelling) until the Berry and Ability activate, allowing Greninja to unleash a massively boosted Hydro Cannon.
Waterium Z is an alternative that provides more consistency and power right out of the gate, at the cost of total power; despite the increased accuracy certain matchups such as Mega Swampert, Magearna, and Mega Gardevoir are made less consistent, making Petaya Berry (generally) the better option. also mention how it makes hydro not have cd, and maybe cite a matchup

Usage Tips
========

Send Greninja out against Pokemon like specially defensive Mega Charizard X, Mega Charizard Y, and non-Taunt Tapu Lele that Greninja lures, as well as most Stall Pokemon like Type: Null or Registeel.
Avoid using Greninja against sound users like Hyper Voice Mega Gardevoir, Meloetta, and bulky Volcarona, who can tank an unboosted Hydro Cannon and kill Greninja through a Substitute.
Unless the opponent is exclusively a status user like Jumpluff or Type: Null, on turn 1 use Substitute. If they use a speed boosting move like Flame Charge or Dragon Dance, just keep Subbing until you hit 25%, after which you can use your Hydro Cannon. If they try to boost their Special Defense, such as Magearna or Mega Gardevoir, just use Work Up until both Pokemon are at +6, and then sub until 25%. Certain Matchups like Magearna must risk a 50/50, as if their Special Defense boosts reach +6 the benefit from Petaya Berry is lost.
Against Type: Null and other Confide users, you can just PP Stall their confide with Work Up.
If one is using Haze, use it to mitigate stat boost from moves like Dragon Dance or Calm Mind, but not Flame Charge, ~~as they'll still gain the boost back after they break your sub~~. this part is both wrong and doesnt make sense. remove it
With Water Shuriken, only use it against Sturdy users. Unless the opponent uses multihit moves and will die to an unboosted Water Shuriken like Golem, sub down to 25% to get the Torrent (and Petaya) boost and then use it to hopefully KO the opponent. If an opponent uses a move like Shell Smash to boost their speed, just keep using substitute as they cannot kill you if you are behind a Substitute.
Between Petaya and Waterium, they play largely similarly except against status users and Pokemon that can survive a hit from a Petaya Berry boosted Hydro Cannon. Waterium Z allows you to Z Move and then Hydro Cannon the next turn, beating some Substitute users. In addition to this, with Petaya, you cannot let the opponent reach +6 as then the advantage gained from Petaya Berry is lost. However, you can safely get to +6 with Waterium as you still keep the damage boost.

Team Options
========

Pokemon that can deal with common threats to this set like Dragonite, Mega Gyarados, scarf Porygon-Z, Mega Lopunny, and Choice Scarf users such as Landorus-T and Sawk are very good partners. Examples include Magearna, Mega-Metagross, and Tapu Lele, who have their Mega Charizard, Magearna, and Jumpluff weaknesses covered by Greninja.
Pokemon that can deal with the bulky Water-types that typically beat Greninja like Tapu Fini or Primarina are great as well, such as Zeraora and Magnezone, who have their Mega Charizard and non-Choice Scarf Landorus-Therian matchups improved.

[CREDITS]
- Written by: [[Synonimous, 457703]]
- Quality checked by: [[Alakazam, 276708], [<username2>, <userid2>], [<username3>, <userid3>]]
- Grammar checked by: [[<username1>, <userid1>], [<username2>, <userid2>]]

honestly quite good just quite a bit of gp stuff that im not going to do

Synonimous · Nov 2, 2019

Freddy Kyogre said:
you can figure it out just look for bold / underline

A Substitute Torrent set can also be used to beat threats to the Specs set like Spdef Charizard-Mega, Magearna, (normal specs does not currently lose to analysis magearna) and Type: Null. Try to mention what changed in specific (work up or taunt or more power) to beat these threats maybe

[SET]
name: Sub Torrent
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Hydro Cannon
move 3: Taunt
move 4: Work Up / Water Shuriken / Haze
item: Petaya Berry / Waterium Z
Ability: Torrent
Nature: Timid
EVs: 28 HP / 140 Def / 164 SpA / 176 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

Substitute is required for this set to function, allowing Greninja to safely defeat both Charizards by using Substitute until Torrent and Petaya Berry are activated.

Hydro Cannon is also a must have, sporting a huge 150 Base Power on top of STAB, Torrent, and either Petaya Berry or Waterium Z to do incredible amounts of damage.

Work Up helps Greninja defeat Pokemon like Magearna (see earlier, come up with another example) or non-Hyper Voice Mega Gardevoir that would attempt to set up defensively in order to beat it. This is especially crucial as due to Hydro Cannon's recharge, in order to win Greninja must OHKO the opponent.

In conjunction with the Work Up, Taunt allows Greninja to shut down stall Pokemon or Substitute users that would wall it, such as Jumpluff grass z infestation is becoming more popular, maybe replace with type:null or something else or Mega Audino.

Alternatively, Water Shuriken can be used to beat Sturdy users like Golem, as well as potentially beating Donphan and Crustle (especially good with Petaya, allowing it to kill most Sturdy users with 3 hits instead of 4).

Haze can also be used as an alternative to Work Up, ~~mitigating~~ removing, more clear as it doesn't really "mitigate" the opponents stat boosts both defensively and offensively as well as guaranteeing the Dragon Dance Charizard Mega X Matchup.

Ice Beam can also be used to beat Infestation Jumpluff and non-Scarf Garchomp, but it loses so many other matchups that it's not worth using most of the time.

Waterfall can also be used in conjunction with Work Up, as it guarantees a win against other Pokemon who would try to boost their Spdef like Unaware Clefable, allowing Greninja to run a mixed offense set. 252 Atk Greninja Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Clefable: 136-162 (34.5 - 41.1%) -- 64.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery even with max attack it doesnt really though, not reliably even with torrent

Set Details
========

140 Defense EVs prevent a max Attack Jolly Charizard Mega X's Flame Charge from breaking its Substitute.

28 HP EVs means that Petaya Berry activates after 3 Substitutes, protecting Greninja from many priority moves that it resists (if one is running Waterium Z, make sure to run 0 HP and 156 Def, putting the 12 leftover EVs into Special Attack, as you get 4 uses of Substitute and Flame Charge still doesn't break it). more on this in qc chat

176 speed EVs with a Timid nature allow Greninja to outspeed max speed Mega Lucario. Although the Mega Lucario Matchup isn't guaranteed, you lose nothing EVing for it anyways.

The rest of the EVs are put into Special Attack to hit as hard as possible.

Petaya Berry and Torrent in conjunction with Substitute allow Greninja to repeatedly use Substititue (spelling) until the Berry and Ability activate, allowing Greninja to unleash a massively boosted Hydro Cannon.

Waterium Z is an alternative that provides more consistency and power right out of the gate, at the cost of total power; despite the increased accuracy certain matchups such as Mega Swampert, Magearna, and Mega Gardevoir are made less consistent, making Petaya Berry (generally) the better option. also mention how it makes hydro not have cd, and maybe cite a matchup

Usage Tips
========

Send Greninja out against Pokemon like specially defensive Mega Charizard X, Mega Charizard Y, and non-Taunt Tapu Lele that Greninja lures, as well as most Stall Pokemon like Type: Null or Registeel.

Avoid using Greninja against sound users like Hyper Voice Mega Gardevoir, Meloetta, and bulky Volcarona, who can tank an unboosted Hydro Cannon and kill Greninja through a Substitute.

Unless the opponent is exclusively a status user like Jumpluff or Type: Null, on turn 1 use Substitute. If they use a speed boosting move like Flame Charge or Dragon Dance, just keep Subbing until you hit 25%, after which you can use your Hydro Cannon. If they try to boost their Special Defense, such as Magearna or Mega Gardevoir, just use Work Up until both Pokemon are at +6, and then sub until 25%. Certain Matchups like Magearna must risk a 50/50, as if their Special Defense boosts reach +6 the benefit from Petaya Berry is lost.

Against Type: Null and other Confide users, you can just PP Stall their confide with Work Up.

If one is using Haze, use it to mitigate stat boost from moves like Dragon Dance or Calm Mind, but not Flame Charge, ~~as they'll still gain the boost back after they break your sub~~. this part is both wrong and doesnt make sense. remove it

With Water Shuriken, only use it against Sturdy users. Unless the opponent uses multihit moves and will die to an unboosted Water Shuriken like Golem, sub down to 25% to get the Torrent (and Petaya) boost and then use it to hopefully KO the opponent. If an opponent uses a move like Shell Smash to boost their speed, just keep using substitute as they cannot kill you if you are behind a Substitute.

Between Petaya and Waterium, they play largely similarly except against status users and Pokemon that can survive a hit from a Petaya Berry boosted Hydro Cannon. Waterium Z allows you to Z Move and then Hydro Cannon the next turn, beating some Substitute users. In addition to this, with Petaya, you cannot let the opponent reach +6 as then the advantage gained from Petaya Berry is lost. However, you can safely get to +6 with Waterium as you still keep the damage boost.

Team Options
========

Pokemon that can deal with common threats to this set like Dragonite, Mega Gyarados, scarf Porygon-Z, Mega Lopunny, and Choice Scarf users such as Landorus-T and Sawk are very good partners. Examples include Magearna, Mega-Metagross, and Tapu Lele, who have their Mega Charizard, Magearna, and Jumpluff weaknesses covered by Greninja.

Pokemon that can deal with the bulky Water-types that typically beat Greninja like Tapu Fini or Primarina are great as well, such as Zeraora and Magnezone, who have their Mega Charizard and non-Choice Scarf Landorus-Therian matchups improved.

[CREDITS]
- Written by: [[Synonimous, 457703]]
- Quality checked by: [[Alakazam, 276708], [<username2>, <userid2>], [<username3>, <userid3>]]
- Grammar checked by: [[<username1>, <userid1>], [<username2>, <userid2>]]

honestly quite good just quite a bit of gp stuff that im not going to do

Implemented, sorry for the lateness.

Ginger Princess · Nov 2, 2019

Synonimous i turned this into paragraph formatting for you

The Official Glyx · Nov 3, 2019

Red = change
~~Red strikethrough = remove~~
Purple = belongs elsewhere
Blue text = my commentary
Green = elaborate
Orange = insert here

A Substitute Torrent set can also be used to beat threats to the Specs set like Spdef Charizard-Mega, Magearna ~~(without HP Fire or Steel)~~ Avoid mentioning or comparing to the other sets unless it is something imperative to how you use the Set. Additionally the other set already beats Magearna, so a better example would perhaps be Metagross, Meloetta, or Lele, and Type: Null. Using the increased utility from only having one attack, Greninja can pump out a huge boosted Hydro Cannon while still using status moves to lock down opponents.

[SET]
name: Sub Torrent
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Hydro Cannon
move 3: Taunt
move 4: Work Up / Water Shuriken / Haze
item: Petaya Berry / Waterium Z
Ability: Torrent
Nature: Timid
EVs: 76 HP / 108 Def / 148 SpA / 176 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

Substitute is required for this set to function, allowing Greninja to safely defeat both Charizards by using Substitute until Torrent and Petaya Berry are activated. Hydro Cannon is also a must have, sporting a huge 150 Base Power on top of STAB, Torrent, and either Petaya Berry or Waterium Z to do incredible amounts of damage. Work Up helps Greninja defeat Pokemon like Type:Null or non-Hyper Voice Mega Gardevoir that would attempt to set up defensively in order to beat it. This is especially crucial as due to Hydro Cannon's recharge, in order to win Greninja must OHKO the opponent. before this is Work Up, while after this is Taunt, despite the set listing them in the order of Taunt, then Work Up. Make sure these are listed in matching order with the Set. In conjunction with the Work Up, Taunt allows Greninja to shut down stall Pokemon or Substitute users that would wall it, such as Jumpluff or Mega Audino. Alternatively, Water Shuriken can be used to beat Sturdy users like Golem, as well as potentially beating Donphan and Crustle (especially good with Petaya, allowing it to kill most Sturdy users with 3 hits instead of 4). Haze can also be used as an alternative to Work Up, removing, more clear as it doesn't really "mitigate" the opponents stat boosts both defensively and offensively as well as guaranteeing the Dragon Dance Mega Charizard X Matchup. Ice Beam can also be used to beat Infestation Jumpluff and non-Scarf Garchomp, but it loses so many other matchups that it's not worth using most of the time. Waterfall can also be used in conjunction with Work Up, as it guarantees a win against other Pokemon who would try to boost their Spdef like Magearna, allowing Greninja to run a mixed offense set using Waterium Z.

Set Details
========

76 HP EVs and 108 Defense EVs prevent a Mega Charizard X's Flame Charge from breaking Greninja's substitute. In particular, the 76 HP EVs mean that Petaya Berry activates after 3 Substitutes, protecting Greninja from many priority moves that it resists. In addition to this Greninja can now live 3 Seismic Tosses from Registeel, guaranteeing the matchup. 176 speed EVs with a Timid nature allow Greninja to outspeed max speed Mega Lucario. Although the Mega Lucario Matchup isn't guaranteed, you lose nothing EVing for it anyways. The rest of the EVs are put into Special Attack to hit as hard as possible. Petaya Berry and Torrent in conjunction with Substitute allow Greninja to repeatedly use Substitute until the Berry and Ability activate, allowing Greninja to unleash a massively boosted Hydro Cannon. Waterium Z is an alternative that provides more consistency and power right out of the gate, at the cost of total power; despite the increased accuracy certain matchups such as Mega Swampert, Magearna, and Mega Gardevoir are made less consistent, making Petaya Berry (generally) the better option. It also improves certain matchups against substitute users like Jumpluff where you need to hit two turns in a row to win.
Usage Tips
========

Send Greninja out against Pokemon like specially defensive Mega Charizard X, Mega Charizard Y, and non-Taunt Tapu Lele that Greninja lures, as well as most Stall Pokemon like Type: Null or Registeel. I didn't peg you as the "Send X against Y" in Usage Tips kind of person, smh- Avoid using Greninja against sound users like Hyper Voice Mega Gardevoir, Meloetta, and bulky Volcarona, who can tank an unboosted Hydro Cannon and kill Greninja through a Substitute. Unless the opponent is exclusively a status user like Jumpluff or Type: Null, on turn 1 use Substitute. If they use a speed boosting move like Flame Charge or Dragon Dance, just keep Subbing until you hit 25%, after which you can use your Hydro Cannon. If they try to boost their Special Defense, such as Magearna or Mega Gardevoir, just use Work Up until both Pokemon are at +6, and then sub until 25%. Certain Matchups like Magearna must risk a 50/50, as if their Special Defense boosts reach +6 the benefit from Petaya Berry is lost. Against Type: Null and other Confide users, you can just PP Stall their confide with Work Up This point is a bit redundant considering that you have Taunt locked in as one of your moves- either expand on it/provide other examples or drop it imo. If one is using Haze, use it to mitigate stat boost from moves like Dragon Dance or Calm Mind. Make sure to not Haze away your Petaya Berry boost though! With Water Shuriken, only use it against Sturdy users. Unless the opponent uses multihit moves and will die to an unboosted Water Shuriken like Golem, sub down to 25% to get the Torrent (and Petaya) boost and then use it to hopefully KO the opponent. If an opponent uses a move like Shell Smash to boost their speed, just keep using substitute as they cannot kill you if you are behind a Substitute. Between Petaya and Waterium, they play largely similarly except against status users and Pokemon that can survive a hit from a Petaya Berry boosted Hydro Cannon. Waterium Z allows you to Z Move and then Hydro Cannon the next turn, beating some Substitute users. In addition to this, with Petaya, you cannot let the opponent reach +6 as then the advantage gained from Petaya Berry is lost. However, you can safely get to +6 with Waterium as you still keep the damage boost.

Team Options
========

Pokemon that can deal with common threats to this set like Dragonite, Mega Gyarados, scarf Porygon-Z, Mega Lopunny, and Choice Scarf users such as Landorus-T and Sawk are very good partners. Examples include Magearna, Mega-Metagross, and Tapu Lele, who have their Mega Charizard, Magearna, and Jumpluff weaknesses covered by Greninja. Pokemon that can deal with the bulky Water-types that typically beat Greninja like Tapu Fini or Primarina are great as well, such as Zeraora and Magnezone, who have their Mega Charizard and non-Choice Scarf Landorus-Therian matchups improved.

[CREDITS]
- Written by: [[Synonimous, 457703]]
- Quality checked by: [[Alakazam, 276708], [Freddy Kyogre, 321529], [Osra, 239997]]
- Grammar checked by: [[<username1>, <userid1>], [<username2>, <userid2>]]

lmk when dun didded

Synonimous · Nov 3, 2019

Osra said:
Red = change
~~Red strikethrough = remove~~
Purple = belongs elsewhere
Blue text = my commentary
Green = elaborate
Orange = insert here

A Substitute Torrent set can also be used to beat threats to the Specs set like Spdef Charizard-Mega, Magearna ~~(without HP Fire or Steel)~~ Avoid mentioning or comparing to the other sets unless it is something imperative to how you use the Set. Additionally the other set already beats Magearna, so a better example would perhaps be Metagross, Meloetta, or Lele, and Type: Null. Using the increased utility from only having one attack, Greninja can pump out a huge boosted Hydro Cannon while still using status moves to lock down opponents.

[SET]
name: Sub Torrent
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Hydro Cannon
move 3: Taunt
move 4: Work Up / Water Shuriken / Haze
item: Petaya Berry / Waterium Z
Ability: Torrent
Nature: Timid
EVs: 76 HP / 108 Def / 148 SpA / 176 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

Substitute is required for this set to function, allowing Greninja to safely defeat both Charizards by using Substitute until Torrent and Petaya Berry are activated. Hydro Cannon is also a must have, sporting a huge 150 Base Power on top of STAB, Torrent, and either Petaya Berry or Waterium Z to do incredible amounts of damage. Work Up helps Greninja defeat Pokemon like Type:Null or non-Hyper Voice Mega Gardevoir that would attempt to set up defensively in order to beat it. This is especially crucial as due to Hydro Cannon's recharge, in order to win Greninja must OHKO the opponent. before this is Work Up, while after this is Taunt, despite the set listing them in the order of Taunt, then Work Up. Make sure these are listed in matching order with the Set. In conjunction with the Work Up, Taunt allows Greninja to shut down stall Pokemon or Substitute users that would wall it, such as Jumpluff or Mega Audino. Alternatively, Water Shuriken can be used to beat Sturdy users like Golem, as well as potentially beating Donphan and Crustle (especially good with Petaya, allowing it to kill most Sturdy users with 3 hits instead of 4). Haze can also be used as an alternative to Work Up, removing, more clear as it doesn't really "mitigate" the opponents stat boosts both defensively and offensively as well as guaranteeing the Dragon Dance Mega Charizard X Matchup. Ice Beam can also be used to beat Infestation Jumpluff and non-Scarf Garchomp, but it loses so many other matchups that it's not worth using most of the time. Waterfall can also be used in conjunction with Work Up, as it guarantees a win against other Pokemon who would try to boost their Spdef like Magearna, allowing Greninja to run a mixed offense set using Waterium Z.

Set Details
========

76 HP EVs and 108 Defense EVs prevent a Mega Charizard X's Flame Charge from breaking Greninja's substitute. In particular, the 76 HP EVs mean that Petaya Berry activates after 3 Substitutes, protecting Greninja from many priority moves that it resists. In addition to this Greninja can now live 3 Seismic Tosses from Registeel, guaranteeing the matchup. 176 speed EVs with a Timid nature allow Greninja to outspeed max speed Mega Lucario. Although the Mega Lucario Matchup isn't guaranteed, you lose nothing EVing for it anyways. The rest of the EVs are put into Special Attack to hit as hard as possible. Petaya Berry and Torrent in conjunction with Substitute allow Greninja to repeatedly use Substitute until the Berry and Ability activate, allowing Greninja to unleash a massively boosted Hydro Cannon. Waterium Z is an alternative that provides more consistency and power right out of the gate, at the cost of total power; despite the increased accuracy certain matchups such as Mega Swampert, Magearna, and Mega Gardevoir are made less consistent, making Petaya Berry (generally) the better option. It also improves certain matchups against substitute users like Jumpluff where you need to hit two turns in a row to win.
Usage Tips
========

Send Greninja out against Pokemon like specially defensive Mega Charizard X, Mega Charizard Y, and non-Taunt Tapu Lele that Greninja lures, as well as most Stall Pokemon like Type: Null or Registeel. I didn't peg you as the "Send X against Y" in Usage Tips kind of person, smh- Avoid using Greninja against sound users like Hyper Voice Mega Gardevoir, Meloetta, and bulky Volcarona, who can tank an unboosted Hydro Cannon and kill Greninja through a Substitute. Unless the opponent is exclusively a status user like Jumpluff or Type: Null, on turn 1 use Substitute. If they use a speed boosting move like Flame Charge or Dragon Dance, just keep Subbing until you hit 25%, after which you can use your Hydro Cannon. If they try to boost their Special Defense, such as Magearna or Mega Gardevoir, just use Work Up until both Pokemon are at +6, and then sub until 25%. Certain Matchups like Magearna must risk a 50/50, as if their Special Defense boosts reach +6 the benefit from Petaya Berry is lost. Against Type: Null and other Confide users, you can just PP Stall their confide with Work Up This point is a bit redundant considering that you have Taunt locked in as one of your moves- either expand on it/provide other examples or drop it imo. If one is using Haze, use it to mitigate stat boost from moves like Dragon Dance or Calm Mind. Make sure to not Haze away your Petaya Berry boost though! With Water Shuriken, only use it against Sturdy users. Unless the opponent uses multihit moves and will die to an unboosted Water Shuriken like Golem, sub down to 25% to get the Torrent (and Petaya) boost and then use it to hopefully KO the opponent. If an opponent uses a move like Shell Smash to boost their speed, just keep using substitute as they cannot kill you if you are behind a Substitute. Between Petaya and Waterium, they play largely similarly except against status users and Pokemon that can survive a hit from a Petaya Berry boosted Hydro Cannon. Waterium Z allows you to Z Move and then Hydro Cannon the next turn, beating some Substitute users. In addition to this, with Petaya, you cannot let the opponent reach +6 as then the advantage gained from Petaya Berry is lost. However, you can safely get to +6 with Waterium as you still keep the damage boost.

Team Options
========

Pokemon that can deal with common threats to this set like Dragonite, Mega Gyarados, scarf Porygon-Z, Mega Lopunny, and Choice Scarf users such as Landorus-T and Sawk are very good partners. Examples include Magearna, Mega-Metagross, and Tapu Lele, who have their Mega Charizard, Magearna, and Jumpluff weaknesses covered by Greninja. Pokemon that can deal with the bulky Water-types that typically beat Greninja like Tapu Fini or Primarina are great as well, such as Zeraora and Magnezone, who have their Mega Charizard and non-Choice Scarf Landorus-Therian matchups improved.

[CREDITS]
- Written by: [[Synonimous, 457703]]
- Quality checked by: [[Alakazam, 276708], [Freddy Kyogre, 321529], [Osra, 239997]]
- Grammar checked by: [[<username1>, <userid1>], [<username2>, <userid2>]]

lmk when dun didded

Implemented :)

The Official Glyx · Nov 3, 2019

Synonimous said:
Work Up helps Greninja defeat Pokemon like Type:Null or non-Hyper Voice Mega Gardevoir that would attempt to set up defensively in order to beat it. In conjunction with Work Up, Taunt allows Greninja to shut down stall Pokemon or Substitute users that would wall it, such as Jumpluff or Mega Audino.

you still have work up before taunt in moves while taunt comes before work up in the set

Synonimous said:
Against Type: Null and other Confide users, you can just PP Stall their confide with Work Up (Taunt can be unreliable if they have attacks)

Null is hitting you with a random return at worst, which you STILL eat, and you have no other confide users listed, so you should either provide one that Taunt may not be inherently reliable against or change the bullet as I described in my first check.

The Official Glyx · Nov 3, 2019

3/3

deetah · Nov 4, 2019

Add Remove Comments (AH) = Add Hyphen (AC) = Add Comma (RC) = Remove Comma
Lots of edits here, be sure to go over and implement them all carefully.

GP 1/2

A Substitute + Torrent set can also be used to beat threats to the Choice Specs set like specially defensive Mega Charizard (Specify which one, if it's both say "Mega Charizard X and Y"), Mega Metagross, and Type: Null. By using the increased utility from only having one attack, Greninja can pump out a huge boosted Hydro Cannon while still using status moves to lock down opponents.

[SET]
name: Substitute + Torrent
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Hydro Cannon
move 3: Taunt
move 4: Work Up / Water Shuriken / Haze
item: Petaya Berry / Waterium Z
ability: Torrent
nature: Timid
EVs: evs: 76 HP / 108 Def / 148 SpA / 176 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

Substitute is required for this set to function, allowing Greninja to safely defeat both Charizard formes Mega Charizard X and Y by using Substitute until Torrent and Petaya Berry are activated. Hydro Cannon is also a must-(AH)have, sporting a huge 150 Base Power on top of STAB, Torrent, and either Petaya Berry or Waterium Z to do incredible amounts of damage. Taunt allows Greninja to shut down stall Pokemon or Substitute users that would wall it, such as Jumpluff or and Mega Audino. Work Up helps Greninja defeat Pokemon like Type:Null or Type: Null and non-Hyper Voice Mega Gardevoir that would attempt to set up defensively in order to beat it. Alternatively, Water Shuriken can be used to beat Sturdy users like Golem, (RC) as well as potentially beating Donphan and Crustle (especially good with Petaya, allowing it to kill most Sturdy users with 3 hits instead of 4) This move is especially good when paired with a Petaya Berry, allowing Greninja to KO most Sturdy users in three hits instead of four. Haze can also be used as an alternative to Work Up, removing the opponents foe's stat boosts both defensively and offensively, (AC) as well as guaranteeing the a win against Dragon Dance Mega Charizard X Matchup. Ice Beam can also be used to beat Infestation Jumpluff and non-Choice Scarf Garchomp, but it loses so many other matchups that it's not worth using most of the time. Waterfall can also be used in conjunction with Work Up, as it guarantees a win against other Pokemon who that would try to boost their Spdef Special Defense like Magearna, allowing Greninja to run a mixed offense set using Waterium Z.

Set Details
========

76 HP EVs and 108 Defense EVs prevent a Mega Charizard X's Flame Charge from breaking Greninja's substitute. In particular, the 76 HP EVs mean that Petaya Berry activates after 3 Substitutes, protecting Greninja from many priority moves that it resists. In addition to this, (AC) Greninja can now live take 3 Seismic Tosses from Registeel, guaranteeing the a win in this matchup. 176 Speed EVs with a Timid nature allow Greninja to outspeed maximum Speed Mega Lucario. Although the Mega Lucario matchup isn't a guaranteed win for Greninja, you lose nothing EVing for it by investing the necessary EVs to outspeed it anyways. The rest of the EVs are put into Special Attack to hit as hard as possible. Petaya Berry and Torrent in conjunction with Substitute allow Greninja to repeatedly use Substitute until the Berry and ability activate, allowing Greninja to unleash a massively boosted Hydro Cannon. Waterium Z is an alternative that provides more consistency and power right out of the gate, at the cost of total power; despite the increased accuracy, (AC) certain matchups such as Mega Swampert, Magearna, and Mega Gardevoir are made less consistent, making Petaya Berry (generally) generally (No parenthesis) the better option. It also improves certain matchups against Substitute users like Jumpluff, (AC) where you need to hit two turns in a row to win.

Usage Tips
========

Greninja should be sent out against slower Pokemon without a resistance to Water and stall users that are weak to Taunt. Avoid using Greninja against sound users Pokemon that can bypass Greninja's its Substitute. Unless the opponent foe is exclusively a status user like Jumpluff or Type: Null, on turn 1, (AC) use Substitute. If they use the opponent elects to use a speed-(AH)boosting move like Flame Charge or Dragon Dance, just keep Subbing using Substitute until you Greninja hits 25%, after which you can use your Hydro Cannon. If they try to boost their Special Defense, a foe such as Magearna or Mega Gardevoir tries to boost their Special Defense, just use Work Up until both Pokemon are at +6, and then sub use Substitute until 25%. Certain matchups like Magearna must risk a 50/50 are a tossup, as if their Special Defense boosts reach +6 the benefit from Petaya Berry is lost. Against Pokemon like Mega-Gardevoir Mega Gardevoir and Tapu Lele who would that try to boost their Special Defense, use Substitute and then boost up with Work Up in order to win. If one is using running Haze, use it to mitigate stat boost from moves like Dragon Dance or Calm Mind. Make sure to not Haze away your Petaya Berry boost though! With Water Shuriken, only use it Only use Water Shuriken against Sturdy users. Unless the opponent foe uses multi-(AH)hit moves and will die to an unboosted Water Shuriken, (AC) like Golem, sub use Substitute down to 25% to get the Torrent (and Petaya) and Petaya Berry boost and then use it to hopefully KO the opponent foe. If an opponent opposing Pokemon uses a move like Shell Smash to boost their Speed, just keep using Substitute, (AC) as they cannot kill you eliminate Greninja if you are behind a Substitute. Between Petaya Berry and Waterium Z, they play largely similarly except against status users and Pokemon that can survive a hit from a Petaya Berry-(AH)boosted Hydro Cannon. Waterium Z allows you to Z Move and then use Hydro Vortex followed by Hydro Cannon the next turn, beating some Substitute users. In addition to this, with Petaya Berry, you cannot let the opponent foe reach +6, (AC) as then the advantage gained from Petaya Berry is lost. However, you can safely get to +6 with Waterium Z, (AC) as you still keep the damage boost.

Team Options
========

Pokemon that can deal with common threats to this set like Dragonite, Mega Gyarados, scarf Porygon-Z, Mega Lopunny, and Choice Scarf users such as Landorus-T, Porygon-Z, and Sawk are very good partners. Examples include Magearna, Mega-Metagross Mega Metagross, and Tapu Lele, who which have their weaknesses to Mega Charizard X and Y, Magearna, and Jumpluff weaknesses covered by Greninja. Pokemon that can deal with the bulky Water-types that typically beat Greninja like Tapu Fini or and Primarina are great teammates as well, such as Zeraora and Magnezone, who which have their matchups against Mega Charizard X and Y and non-Choice Scarf Landorus-Therian matchups improved.

[CREDITS]
- Written by: [[Synonimous, 457703]]
- Quality checked by: [[Alakazam, 276708], [Freddy Kyogre, 321529], [Osra, 239997]]
- Grammar checked by: [[<username1>, <userid1>], [<username2>, <userid2>]]

Synonimous · Nov 4, 2019

deetah said:
Add Remove Comments (AH) = Add Hyphen (AC) = Add Comma (RC) = Remove Comma
Lots of edits here, be sure to go over and implement them all carefully.

GP 1/2

View attachment 203978

A Substitute + Torrent set can also be used to beat threats to the Choice Specs set like specially defensive Mega Charizard (Specify which one, if it's both say "Mega Charizard X and Y"), Mega Metagross, and Type: Null. By using the increased utility from only having one attack, Greninja can pump out a huge boosted Hydro Cannon while still using status moves to lock down opponents.

[SET]
name: Substitute + Torrent
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Hydro Cannon
move 3: Taunt
move 4: Work Up / Water Shuriken / Haze
item: Petaya Berry / Waterium Z
ability: Torrent
nature: Timid
EVs: evs: 76 HP / 108 Def / 148 SpA / 176 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

Substitute is required for this set to function, allowing Greninja to safely defeat both Charizard formes Mega Charizard X and Y by using Substitute until Torrent and Petaya Berry are activated. Hydro Cannon is also a must-(AH)have, sporting a huge 150 Base Power on top of STAB, Torrent, and either Petaya Berry or Waterium Z to do incredible amounts of damage. Taunt allows Greninja to shut down stall Pokemon or Substitute users that would wall it, such as Jumpluff or and Mega Audino. Work Up helps Greninja defeat Pokemon like Type:Null or Type: Null and non-Hyper Voice Mega Gardevoir that would attempt to set up defensively in order to beat it. Alternatively, Water Shuriken can be used to beat Sturdy users like Golem, (RC) as well as potentially beating Donphan and Crustle (especially good with Petaya, allowing it to kill most Sturdy users with 3 hits instead of 4) This move is especially good when paired with a Petaya Berry, allowing Greninja to KO most Sturdy users in three hits instead of four. Haze can also be used as an alternative to Work Up, removing the opponents foe's stat boosts both defensively and offensively, (AC) as well as guaranteeing the a win against Dragon Dance Mega Charizard X Matchup. Ice Beam can also be used to beat Infestation Jumpluff and non-Choice Scarf Garchomp, but it loses so many other matchups that it's not worth using most of the time. Waterfall can also be used in conjunction with Work Up, as it guarantees a win against other Pokemon who that would try to boost their Spdef Special Defense like Magearna, allowing Greninja to run a mixed offense set using Waterium Z.

Set Details
========

76 HP EVs and 108 Defense EVs prevent a Mega Charizard X's Flame Charge from breaking Greninja's substitute. In particular, the 76 HP EVs mean that Petaya Berry activates after 3 Substitutes, protecting Greninja from many priority moves that it resists. In addition to this, (AC) Greninja can now live take 3 Seismic Tosses from Registeel, guaranteeing the a win in this matchup. 176 Speed EVs with a Timid nature allow Greninja to outspeed maximum Speed Mega Lucario. Although the Mega Lucario matchup isn't a guaranteed win for Greninja, you lose nothing EVing for it by investing the necessary EVs to outspeed it anyways. The rest of the EVs are put into Special Attack to hit as hard as possible. Petaya Berry and Torrent in conjunction with Substitute allow Greninja to repeatedly use Substitute until the Berry and ability activate, allowing Greninja to unleash a massively boosted Hydro Cannon. Waterium Z is an alternative that provides more consistency and power right out of the gate, at the cost of total power; despite the increased accuracy, (AC) certain matchups such as Mega Swampert, Magearna, and Mega Gardevoir are made less consistent, making Petaya Berry (generally) generally (No parenthesis) the better option. It also improves certain matchups against Substitute users like Jumpluff, (AC) where you need to hit two turns in a row to win.

Usage Tips
========

Greninja should be sent out against slower Pokemon without a resistance to Water and stall users that are weak to Taunt. Avoid using Greninja against sound users Pokemon that can bypass Greninja's its Substitute. Unless the opponent foe is exclusively a status user like Jumpluff or Type: Null, on turn 1, (AC) use Substitute. If they use the opponent elects to use a speed-(AH)boosting move like Flame Charge or Dragon Dance, just keep Subbing using Substitute until you Greninja hits 25%, after which you can use your Hydro Cannon. If they try to boost their Special Defense, a foe such as Magearna or Mega Gardevoir tries to boost their Special Defense, just use Work Up until both Pokemon are at +6, and then sub use Substitute until 25%. Certain matchups like Magearna must risk a 50/50 are a tossup, as if their Special Defense boosts reach +6 the benefit from Petaya Berry is lost. Against Pokemon like Mega-Gardevoir Mega Gardevoir and Tapu Lele who would that try to boost their Special Defense, use Substitute and then boost up with Work Up in order to win. If one is using running Haze, use it to mitigate stat boost from moves like Dragon Dance or Calm Mind. Make sure to not Haze away your Petaya Berry boost though! With Water Shuriken, only use it Only use Water Shuriken against Sturdy users. Unless the opponent foe uses multi-(AH)hit moves and will die to an unboosted Water Shuriken, (AC) like Golem, sub use Substitute down to 25% to get the Torrent (and Petaya) and Petaya Berry boost and then use it to hopefully KO the opponent foe. If an opponent opposing Pokemon uses a move like Shell Smash to boost their Speed, just keep using Substitute, (AC) as they cannot kill you eliminate Greninja if you are behind a Substitute. Between Petaya Berry and Waterium Z, they play largely similarly except against status users and Pokemon that can survive a hit from a Petaya Berry-(AH)boosted Hydro Cannon. Waterium Z allows you to Z Move and then use Hydro Vortex followed by Hydro Cannon the next turn, beating some Substitute users. In addition to this, with Petaya Berry, you cannot let the opponent foe reach +6, (AC) as then the advantage gained from Petaya Berry is lost. However, you can safely get to +6 with Waterium Z, (AC) as you still keep the damage boost.

Team Options
========

Pokemon that can deal with common threats to this set like Dragonite, Mega Gyarados, scarf Porygon-Z, Mega Lopunny, and Choice Scarf users such as Landorus-T, Porygon-Z, and Sawk are very good partners. Examples include Magearna, Mega-Metagross Mega Metagross, and Tapu Lele, who which have their weaknesses to Mega Charizard X and Y, Magearna, and Jumpluff weaknesses covered by Greninja. Pokemon that can deal with the bulky Water-types that typically beat Greninja like Tapu Fini or and Primarina are great teammates as well, such as Zeraora and Magnezone, who which have their matchups against Mega Charizard X and Y and non-Choice Scarf Landorus-Therian matchups improved.

[CREDITS]
- Written by: [[Synonimous, 457703]]
- Quality checked by: [[Alakazam, 276708], [Freddy Kyogre, 321529], [Osra, 239997]]
- Grammar checked by: [[<username1>, <userid1>], [<username2>, <userid2>]]

Implemented :)

Rabia · Nov 4, 2019

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remove
comments

A Substitute + Torrent set can also be used to beat threats to the Choice Specs set like specially defensive Mega Charizard X and Y, Mega Metagross, and Type: Null. By using the increased utility from only having one attack forgoing coverage moves for options like Substitute, Work Up, and Taunt, Greninja can pump out a huge boosted Hydro Cannon while still using status moves to lock down opponents foes.

[SET]
name: Substitute + Torrent
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Hydro Cannon
move 3: Taunt
move 4: Work Up / Water Shuriken / Haze
item: Petaya Berry / Waterium Z
ability: Torrent
nature: Timid
evs: 76 HP / 108 Def / 148 SpA / 176 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

Substitute is required for this set to function, allowing Greninja to safely defeat both Mega Charizard X and Y by using Substitute until Torrent and Petaya Berry are activated. Hydro Cannon is also a must-have, sporting a huge 150-Base(AH) Power on top of STAB, a Torrent boost, and either Petaya Berry or Waterium Z to do incredible amounts of damage. Taunt allows Greninja to shut down stall Pokemon or and Substitute users that would wall it, such as Jumpluff and Mega Audino and Jumpluff (keep lists consistent, I am fairly certain at least that Mega Audino is the stall Pokemon and Jumpluff the Substitute user). Work Up helps Greninja defeat Pokemon like Type: Null and non-Hyper Voice Mega Gardevoir that would attempt to set up defensively in order boost their defenses (less awkward wording imo) to beat it. Alternatively, Water Shuriken can be used to beat Sturdy users like Golem as well as potentially beating Donphan and Crustle. This move is especially good when paired with a Petaya Berry, allowing Greninja to KO most Sturdy users in three hits instead of four. Haze can also be used as an alternative to Work Up, removing the foe's stat boosts both defensively and offensively (implied), as well as guaranteeing a win against Dragon Dance Mega Charizard X. Ice Beam can also be used to beat Infestation Jumpluff and non-Choice Scarf Garchomp, but it loses so many other matchups that it's not worth using most of the time. Waterfall can also be used in conjunction with Work Up, as it guarantees a win against other Pokemon that would try to boost their Special Defense like Magearna,(RC) allowing and allows Greninja to run a mixed offense offensive set using Waterium Z.

Set Details
========

76 HP EVs and 108 Defense EVs prevent a Mega Charizard X's Flame Charge from breaking Greninja's substitute Substitute. In particular Additionally, the 76 HP EVs mean that Petaya Berry activates after 3 Substitutes, protecting Greninja from many priority moves that it resists. In addition to this, Greninja can now take 3 Seismic Tosses from Registeel, guaranteeing a win in this matchup. 176 Speed EVs with a Timid nature allow Greninja to outspeed maximum Speed Mega Lucario. Although the Mega Lucario matchup isn't a guaranteed win for Greninja, you lose nothing by investing the necessary EVs to outspeed it. The rest of the EVs are put into Special Attack to hit as hard as possible. Petaya Berry and Torrent in conjunction with Substitute allow Greninja to repeatedly use Substitute until the Berry and ability activate, allowing Greninja it to unleash a massively boosted Hydro Cannon. Waterium Z is an alternative that provides more consistency and power right out of the gate,(RC) at the cost of total power; despite the increased accuracy, certain matchups such as Mega Swampert, Magearna, and Mega Gardevoir are made less consistent, making Petaya Berry generally the better option. It also improves certain matchups against Substitute users like Jumpluff, where you need to hit two turns in a row to win.

Usage Tips
========

Greninja should be sent out against slower Pokemon without a resistance to Water and stall users Pokemon (eh, users doesn't feel like the right noun here) that are weak to Taunt. Avoid using Greninja against Pokemon that can bypass its Substitute like Meloetta. Unless the foe is exclusively a status user like Jumpluff or Type: Null, on turn 1, use Substitute. If the opponent elects to use a speed Speed-boosting move like Flame Charge or Dragon Dance, just keep using Substitute until Greninja hits 25% hp health, after which you can (can use? or should use?) use Hydro Cannon. If a foe such as Magearna or Mega Gardevoir tries to boost their Special Defense, just use Work Up until both Pokemon are at +6, and then sub use Substitute until at 25% health. Certain matchups like Magearna are a toss-up(AH), as if their Special Defense boosts reach +6,(AC) the benefit from Petaya Berry is lost. Against Pokemon like Mega Gardevoir and Tapu Lele that try to boost their Special Defense, use Substitute and then boost up with Work Up in order to win. If running Haze, use it to mitigate stat boost boosts from moves like Dragon Dance or and Calm Mind. Make sure to not Haze away your Petaya Berry boost though! Only use Water Shuriken against Sturdy users. Unless the foe uses multi-hit moves and will die faint to an unboosted Water Shuriken, like Golem, use Substitute down to reach 25% health to get the Torrent and Petaya Berry boost boosts and then use it to hopefully KO the foe. If an opposing Pokemon uses a move like Shell Smash to boost their Speed, just keep using Substitute, as they cannot eliminate Greninja if it is behind a Substitute. Between Petaya Berry and Waterium Z, they play largely similarly except against status users and Pokemon that can survive a hit from a Petaya Berry-boosted Hydro Cannon. Waterium Z allows you to use Hydro Vortex followed by Hydro Cannon the next turn, beating some Substitute users. In addition to this, with Petaya Berry, you cannot let the foe reach +6, as then the advantage gained from Petaya Berry is lost. However, you can safely get to +6 with Waterium Z, as you still keep the damage boost.

Team Options
========

Pokemon that can deal with common threats to this set like Dragonite, Mega Gyarados, Mega Lopunny, and Choice Scarf users such as Landorus-T, Porygon-Z, and Sawk are very good partners. Examples include Magearna, Mega Metagross, and Tapu Lele, all of which have their weaknesses to Mega Charizard X and Y, Magearna, and Jumpluff covered by Greninja. Pokemon such as Zeraora and Magnezone that can deal with the bulky Water-types that typically beat Greninja like Tapu Fini and Primarina are great teammates as well,(RC) such as Zeraora and Magnezone, which have and appreciate having their matchups against Mega Charizard X and Y and non-Choice Scarf Landorus-T improved covered (improved doesn't work here because Greninja itself isn't going up against them).

[CREDITS]
- Written by: [[Synonimous, 457703]]
- Quality checked by: [[Alakazam, 276708], [Freddy Kyogre, 321529], [Osra, 239997]]
- Grammar checked by: [[deetah, 297659], [Rabia, 336073]]

a few things from the previous check were missed, so make sure to be giga careful with implementing. gp 2/2 once done

Synonimous · Nov 5, 2019

Rabia said:
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remove
comments

A Substitute + Torrent set can also be used to beat threats to the Choice Specs set like specially defensive Mega Charizard X and Y, Mega Metagross, and Type: Null. By using the increased utility from only having one attack forgoing coverage moves for options like Substitute, Work Up, and Taunt, Greninja can pump out a huge boosted Hydro Cannon while still using status moves to lock down opponents foes.

[SET]
name: Substitute + Torrent
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Hydro Cannon
move 3: Taunt
move 4: Work Up / Water Shuriken / Haze
item: Petaya Berry / Waterium Z
ability: Torrent
nature: Timid
evs: 76 HP / 108 Def / 148 SpA / 176 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

Substitute is required for this set to function, allowing Greninja to safely defeat both Mega Charizard X and Y by using Substitute until Torrent and Petaya Berry are activated. Hydro Cannon is also a must-have, sporting a huge 150-Base(AH) Power on top of STAB, a Torrent boost, and either Petaya Berry or Waterium Z to do incredible amounts of damage. Taunt allows Greninja to shut down stall Pokemon or and Substitute users that would wall it, such as Jumpluff and Mega Audino and Jumpluff (keep lists consistent, I am fairly certain at least that Mega Audino is the stall Pokemon and Jumpluff the Substitute user). Work Up helps Greninja defeat Pokemon like Type: Null and non-Hyper Voice Mega Gardevoir that would attempt to set up defensively in order boost their defenses (less awkward wording imo) to beat it. Alternatively, Water Shuriken can be used to beat Sturdy users like Golem as well as potentially beating Donphan and Crustle. This move is especially good when paired with a Petaya Berry, allowing Greninja to KO most Sturdy users in three hits instead of four. Haze can also be used as an alternative to Work Up, removing the foe's stat boosts both defensively and offensively (implied), as well as guaranteeing a win against Dragon Dance Mega Charizard X. Ice Beam can also be used to beat Infestation Jumpluff and non-Choice Scarf Garchomp, but it loses so many other matchups that it's not worth using most of the time. Waterfall can also be used in conjunction with Work Up, as it guarantees a win against other Pokemon that would try to boost their Special Defense like Magearna,(RC) allowing and allows Greninja to run a mixed offense offensive set using Waterium Z.

Set Details
========

76 HP EVs and 108 Defense EVs prevent a Mega Charizard X's Flame Charge from breaking Greninja's substitute Substitute. In particular Additionally, the 76 HP EVs mean that Petaya Berry activates after 3 Substitutes, protecting Greninja from many priority moves that it resists. In addition to this, Greninja can now take 3 Seismic Tosses from Registeel, guaranteeing a win in this matchup. 176 Speed EVs with a Timid nature allow Greninja to outspeed maximum Speed Mega Lucario. Although the Mega Lucario matchup isn't a guaranteed win for Greninja, you lose nothing by investing the necessary EVs to outspeed it. The rest of the EVs are put into Special Attack to hit as hard as possible. Petaya Berry and Torrent in conjunction with Substitute allow Greninja to repeatedly use Substitute until the Berry and ability activate, allowing Greninja it to unleash a massively boosted Hydro Cannon. Waterium Z is an alternative that provides more consistency and power right out of the gate,(RC) at the cost of total power; despite the increased accuracy, certain matchups such as Mega Swampert, Magearna, and Mega Gardevoir are made less consistent, making Petaya Berry generally the better option. It also improves certain matchups against Substitute users like Jumpluff, where you need to hit two turns in a row to win.

Usage Tips
========

Greninja should be sent out against slower Pokemon without a resistance to Water and stall users Pokemon (eh, users doesn't feel like the right noun here) that are weak to Taunt. Avoid using Greninja against Pokemon that can bypass its Substitute like Meloetta. Unless the foe is exclusively a status user like Jumpluff or Type: Null, on turn 1, use Substitute. If the opponent elects to use a speed Speed-boosting move like Flame Charge or Dragon Dance, just keep using Substitute until Greninja hits 25% hp health, after which you can (can use? or should use?) use Hydro Cannon. If a foe such as Magearna or Mega Gardevoir tries to boost their Special Defense, just use Work Up until both Pokemon are at +6, and then sub use Substitute until at 25% health. Certain matchups like Magearna are a toss-up(AH), as if their Special Defense boosts reach +6,(AC) the benefit from Petaya Berry is lost. Against Pokemon like Mega Gardevoir and Tapu Lele that try to boost their Special Defense, use Substitute and then boost up with Work Up in order to win. If running Haze, use it to mitigate stat boost boosts from moves like Dragon Dance or and Calm Mind. Make sure to not Haze away your Petaya Berry boost though! Only use Water Shuriken against Sturdy users. Unless the foe uses multi-hit moves and will die faint to an unboosted Water Shuriken, like Golem, use Substitute down to reach 25% health to get the Torrent and Petaya Berry boost boosts and then use it to hopefully KO the foe. If an opposing Pokemon uses a move like Shell Smash to boost their Speed, just keep using Substitute, as they cannot eliminate Greninja if it is behind a Substitute. Between Petaya Berry and Waterium Z, they play largely similarly except against status users and Pokemon that can survive a hit from a Petaya Berry-boosted Hydro Cannon. Waterium Z allows you to use Hydro Vortex followed by Hydro Cannon the next turn, beating some Substitute users. In addition to this, with Petaya Berry, you cannot let the foe reach +6, as then the advantage gained from Petaya Berry is lost. However, you can safely get to +6 with Waterium Z, as you still keep the damage boost.

Team Options
========

Pokemon that can deal with common threats to this set like Dragonite, Mega Gyarados, Mega Lopunny, and Choice Scarf users such as Landorus-T, Porygon-Z, and Sawk are very good partners. Examples include Magearna, Mega Metagross, and Tapu Lele, all of which have their weaknesses to Mega Charizard X and Y, Magearna, and Jumpluff covered by Greninja. Pokemon such as Zeraora and Magnezone that can deal with the bulky Water-types that typically beat Greninja like Tapu Fini and Primarina are great teammates as well,(RC) such as Zeraora and Magnezone, which have and appreciate having their matchups against Mega Charizard X and Y and non-Choice Scarf Landorus-T improved covered (improved doesn't work here because Greninja itself isn't going up against them).

[CREDITS]
- Written by: [[Synonimous, 457703]]
- Quality checked by: [[Alakazam, 276708], [Freddy Kyogre, 321529], [Osra, 239997]]
- Grammar checked by: [[deetah, 297659], [Rabia, 336073]]

a few things from the previous check were missed, so make sure to be giga careful with implementing. gp 2/2 once done

Sorry about that. Implemented :)

Ginger Princess · Nov 5, 2019

https://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/pokemon/greninja/1v1/

dis boi uploaded, good job synon

1v1 Sub Torrent Greninja - Update [QC 3/3] [GP 2/2]

Synonimous

edudittA

Synonimous

Ginger Princess

Girl moding so hard rn

Ginger Princess

Girl moding so hard rn

Synonimous

Ginger Princess

Girl moding so hard rn

pqs

Banned deucer.

Ginger Princess

Girl moding so hard rn

Freddy Kyogre

Synonimous

Ginger Princess

Girl moding so hard rn

The Official Glyx

Banned deucer.

Synonimous

The Official Glyx

Banned deucer.

The Official Glyx

Banned deucer.

deetah

Delicate as silk

Synonimous

Rabia

Synonimous

Ginger Princess

Girl moding so hard rn

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