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Psychic is going to get a lot better. Deoxys (x2) and Solgaleo is incredible.
Can’t see Kyurem-B lasting long, Loded Dice + Icicle Spear gives it that reliable Ice STAB it’s always wanted. On Ice it can abuse Snow and Aurora Veil to become near unstoppable - get rid of the hazards and you’re golden (Snowslash says hi). On Dragon it can partner up with Cyclizar for Shed Tail (also provides spin) and Gouging Fire to smash the likes of Scizor, Gholdengo and Kingambit.
As of right now, my current thoughts are I don't think the unbans are going to be healthy for the tier for the most part and are going to be offensively hell to deal with for a lot of types. I'm hoping the quickbans deal with them quick but at the same time I will accept being proven wrong if they are a healthy presence. Poison is probably still gonna hate em though so help. (I'm letting this be my last stance before the update drops and getting outta that hellish convo)
It would be pertinent to see some of the council members' reasonings for unbans/bans, in particular Kyurem-B and Solgaleo, so that we can have more informed tiering discussions as a community instead of having Ubers dropped on us with no reasoning. Please note that this post is not intended to start a flame war; I am genuinely interested in the tiering takes of council members.
I believe some of the decisions taken were very controversial, to say the least, and I would like to ask some reasonings from the council members because they might in fact be seeing something we dont and convince us that the actions were indeed the most correct ones. In special, i would like to bring up:
- Why unban Kyurem-Black considering Bax was almost barely banned by voting and it is literally stronger, bulkier and faster?
- Why unban booster energy considering we got even more abusers than before?
It would be pertinent to see some of the council members' reasonings for unbans/bans, in particular Kyurem-B and Solgaleo, so that we can have more informed tiering discussions as a community instead of having Ubers dropped on us with no reasoning. Please note that this post is not intended to start a flame war; I am genuinely interested in the tiering takes of council members.
I support what TheRealBigC says, it’s not my intention to flame or criticize, but as Leafium also said, Kyurem-B looks a like a bax on steroids, and… Solgaleo? Imagine going against pshychic with the likes of solgaleo + one of the deoxys; or against a snow veil protected kyurem-B.
Before this turns into a dog pile, I’ll remind everyone the DLC just dropped and hasn’t even been playtested yet.
It’s a new metagame that’s well more offensive than any past generation. If the things you’re concerned about are indeed deemed unhealthy, they will either be quickbanned or suspected depending on the council’s position.
Until then, purely speculating based on stats and moves alone, without actually having even used said pokemon/items/etc., is that alone: speculative.
If you haven’t been here for the start of a generation (like SM) or DLC drops in the past, of course some things may seem broken at first. Usually, these get resolved, (and I will speak above my own position as a non-council member here) but because we are not a usage based tier, not everything theoretically needs to be so rushed. We don’t have monthly drops to force tiering to be an immediate need, but something that can (and should) be more thought out than “this looks broken” being the rationale before it’s even seen use on the sim.
Before this turns into a dog pile, I’ll remind everyone the DLC just dropped and hasn’t even been playtested yet.
It’s a new metagame that’s well more offensive than any past generation. If the things you’re concerned about are indeed deemed unhealthy, they will either be quickbanned or suspected depending on the council’s position.
Until then, purely speculating based on stats and moves alone, without actually having even used said pokemon/items/etc., is that alone: speculative.
If you haven’t been here for the start of a generation (like SM) or DLC drops in the past, of course some things may seem broken at first. Usually, these get resolved, (and I will speak above my own position as a non-council member here) but because we are not a usage based tier, not everything theoretically needs to be so rushed. We don’t have monthly drops to force tiering to be an immediate need, but something that can (and should) be more thought out than “this looks broken” being the rationale before it’s even seen use on the sim.
I agree with everything, it's just that I feel like in more controversial votings like this one, mentioning the rationale of some votes would also help the community to even understand the council more. Because surely there must be a stronger reason for some unbans than "lets allow, if its broken we just ban it later", right?
I felt kinda weird making a post after stepping down but I obviously still enjoy the tier and hope for its betterment so I wanted to just drop some things I've already written and how they relate to the new unbans. This mostly stems from something i wrote in a cord a couple months back summing up my thoughts on sv in general:
- Basically we've just become desensizated to the massive massive power creep SV has compared to really any other generation with mono due to the council/community being very adamant against banning mons since SV dropped. There's like 5 mons that could reasonably be banned and the tier would probably be better for it. It would lower that power creep significantly and likely open up for far more builder creativity and increase overall competiveness of the meta. Also, this meta leads to the issue of saying things like "unban bundle compared to everything else in the meta its fine" like i don't think we should have a meta where that is a good arguement
And this written about a week back after I pulled some stats seeing that like 27/32 mwp games included either flutter, baxc, ogerpon-h, bm, pao, or a flying team(the only real type w/o a specific "power creep-esque" mon that can keep up with this meta). And its fair to say that this stat makes up multiple types but realistically its fairy/dragon/ice/ghost/fire/ground/dark/fly. Normal/grass aren't being used. I think there is very little reason to use any types outside of this and 8/18 is pretty low relative to ss/sm/maybe oras?(idr it well enough.)
- But yea anyways this goes back to my thought that the tier is just too power crept to be competitive and the only thing that rly helps it is banning not one or two mons but like 3-5 of them-tier j got fucked from an attitude of not wanting to ban anything from the start and has turned into by far the most volatile meta in mono history
The first part of that was something I typed out when I was still on council. While I felt it was true, the main point I was making(as mentioned in the other log) is that the only way to "fix the tier" in the way I'm proposing is banning multiple pokemon, not just suspecting one or two, getting one ban, and moving on. This was also around the time when baxc was voted to stay in the meta and it seemed quite obvious that such a proposal was not at all realistic, so I didn't bring it up in council.
I wanted to share it now because the extent of the power creep just keeps going further and further, this new slate just showing that the same attitude of sticking with the already power crept meta, and even adding to it w the likes of kyub, solgaleo, and booster, is the new norm. And maybe some of these things will be banned in the following weeks, maybe the power creep is high enough that they'll stay. Regardless, this meta is just so volitale compared to previous gens and I think it highly limits builder creativity, skewing it to just build around a handful of "broken mons,"and overall competitiveness compared to if we had started out with more bans, and changed the attitude about tiering in general.
So in terms of a concrete proposal I think banning the following things would make for a more competitive/balanced/ability for innovation meta: solgaleo, kyu-b, booster, bm, ogerpon-h, baxc, pao, and then can keep on eye on flutter/zama/gambit. WOAHHH... yep, I'm proposing we ban seven things(though tbf, until today it was only 4). This is, of course, probably unreliastic, but it would significantly lower the threshold for viability by banning pokemon that have all been looked at one time or another as problomatic, who really only stay in the gen because they are surrounded by each other. Take one out, nothing rly changes, the power creep is still there. Take all seven, or multiple out, and I confidently believe that the meta would be better for it.
I'm not gonna go super hard into any of the new unbans specifically but I wanted to bring up:
- The last time booster was voted on I was there for the convo, and we chose to keep it banned. The only thing that has changed since that vote is that we have confirmed more pokemon r going to be released that make use of it. I mean I guess multiple people changed their minds.. but like.. why..? This was just very silly
I'm not the best writer and I'm saying a lot of things, probably not in the most articulate way, but hopefully even if you don't agree w such a radical change, you can gain some value from a couple of these points.
Perhaps my opinion will not matter at all, but when has that ever stopped me from posting them? I certainly agree with most of Azicks statement (though if you banned every mon listed I feel like flutter/zama/gambit, the last two in particular, would need to go immediately), but honestly...I kinda think having this type of meta is fun once in a while you know? For so long this metagame across the generations has felt somewhat too conversative to the point where every generation you knew what was going to happen and what was going to be "the best types" (though that still hasn't particularlly changed this gen, the line has gotten blurry to include alot more types). I find all of this...fun. This all may get quickbanned within a week or two, but at the same time...we won't get another one like this you know? In such a long time, I have been battling more than I have in the past cause you would never see some of this in another gen. Like really? Solgaleo being unbanned unironically? You have my attention
Its not just monotype going through this rn, OU for example is and has been a mess this generation.
I am not a super competitive mons fan however, and so people more experience may dread these changes. I however, am going to enjoy this little broken meta we have for the fleeting time we have with it
I felt kinda weird making a post after stepping down but I obviously still enjoy the tier and hope for its betterment so I wanted to just drop some things I've already written and how they relate to the new unbans. This mostly stems from something i wrote in a cord a couple months back summing up my thoughts on sv in general:
- Basically we've just become desensizated to the massive massive power creep SV has compared to really any other generation with mono due to the council/community being very adamant against banning mons since SV dropped. There's like 5 mons that could reasonably be banned and the tier would probably be better for it. It would lower that power creep significantly and likely open up for far more builder creativity and increase overall competiveness of the meta. Also, this meta leads to the issue of saying things like "unban bundle compared to everything else in the meta its fine" like i don't think we should have a meta where that is a good arguement
And this written about a week back after I pulled some stats seeing that like 27/32 mwp games included either flutter, baxc, ogerpon-h, bm, pao, or a flying team(the only real type w/o a specific "power creep-esque" mon that can keep up with this meta). And its fair to say that this stat makes up multiple types but realistically its fairy/dragon/ice/ghost/fire/ground/dark/fly. Normal/grass aren't being used. I think there is very little reason to use any types outside of this and 8/18 is pretty low relative to ss/sm/maybe oras?(idr it well enough.)
- But yea anyways this goes back to my thought that the tier is just too power crept to be competitive and the only thing that rly helps it is banning not one or two mons but like 3-5 of them-tier j got fucked from an attitude of not wanting to ban anything from the start and has turned into by far the most volatile meta in mono history
The first part of that was something I typed out when I was still on council. While I felt it was true, the main point I was making(as mentioned in the other log) is that the only way to "fix the tier" in the way I'm proposing is banning multiple pokemon, not just suspecting one or two, getting one ban, and moving on. This was also around the time when baxc was voted to stay in the meta and it seemed quite obvious that such a proposal was not at all realistic, so I didn't bring it up in council.
I wanted to share it now because the extent of the power creep just keeps going further and further, this new slate just showing that the same attitude of sticking with the already power crept meta, and even adding to it w the likes of kyub, solgaleo, and booster, is the new norm. And maybe some of these things will be banned in the following weeks, maybe the power creep is high enough that they'll stay. Regardless, this meta is just so volitale compared to previous gens and I think it highly limits builder creativity, skewing it to just build around a handful of "broken mons,"and overall competitiveness compared to if we had started out with more bans, and changed the attitude about tiering in general.
So in terms of a concrete proposal I think banning the following things would make for a more competitive/balanced/ability for innovation meta: solgaleo, kyu-b, booster, bm, ogerpon-h, baxc, pao, and then can keep on eye on flutter/zama/gambit. WOAHHH... yep, I'm proposing we ban seven things(though tbf, until today it was only 4). This is, of course, probably unreliastic, but it would significantly lower the threshold for viability by banning pokemon that have all been looked at one time or another as problomatic, who really only stay in the gen because they are surrounded by each other. Take one out, nothing rly changes, the power creep is still there. Take all seven, or multiple out, and I confidently believe that the meta would be better for it.
I'm not gonna go super hard into any of the new unbans specifically but I wanted to bring up:
- The last time booster was voted on I was there for the convo, and we chose to keep it banned. The only thing that has changed since that vote is that we have confirmed more pokemon r going to be released that make use of it. I mean I guess multiple people changed their minds.. but like.. why..? This was just very silly
I'm not the best writer and I'm saying a lot of things, probably not in the most articulate way, but hopefully even if you don't agree w such a radical change, you can gain some value from a couple of these points.
While I agree with most of your points here (and you certainly have more experience than me with how council works), I feel like it's necessary to point out a bit of contradiction that I'm curious to understand (because right now I don't). Additionally, I feel a couple of points you mentioned are somewhat non-unique to the tier. I'd love to hear your response.
Firstly, the contradiction I don't get is the fact that you state that the meta is centralized (which I agree with) but then also state that it is volatile. Shouldn't something being centralized mean that it's stable but unhealthily focused around a group of mons? In that case, that would contradict the volatility of the meta. I'd be genuinely interested to learn what your definition of centralization is.
Secondly, I feel that we can't fix GF's power creep by just banning the top of the metagame. While you do say that there are multiple mons that are centralizing the meta (which, again, I agree with), there is certainly the same issue in tiers such as OU with Great Tusk or even other, non-OU affiliated tiers like National Dex with Waterpon. Additionally, I'm not sure if now is the correct time to start the banning process, seeing as the new DLC will drop on PS soon and we're all just speaking from theory and not practicality.
Finally (just in my opinion), the council should welcome unbanning things at the start of a new generation or new DLC. While it's true that some of the unbans are questionable (Solgaleo? Kyurem-B??), most of the time things that get unbanned either get re-banned, in which case the mon wouldn't affect the meta too much, or it would become a good presence in the metagame. Again, speaking from theory here, though.
I mean this thing has an insane stat spread, and more than enough options and ways to threaten teams. The main things I see it doing right off the bat include a Special Defensive Pivot with Teleport+Morning Sun. You can future sight too if you want, but the bulk on this thing is actually insane. For a point of reference I don't think any of our normal special wallbreakers are ohko even when super effective.
252 SpA Choice Specs Flutter Mane Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Solgaleo: 314-372 (65.6 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Valiant Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Solgaleo: 192-228 (40.1 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Solgaleo: 354-421 (74 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Ursaluna-Bloodmoon Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Solgaleo: 386-456 (80.7 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So naturally you can kinda figure from this as a point of reference that anything that's not super effective is not breaking 50% unless it's specs hydro pump in the rain, where common swift swim abusers still can't hit 70%.
I also think people can forget just how easy it is to roll teams by just doing a sub cm set + morning sun or just cm + 2 attack set. And the bulk truly is insane on this thing, none attack invested Great Tusk needs a high roll just to 2hko with headlong rush.
4 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Solgaleo: 224-266 (46.8 - 55.6%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Glis is also just setup fodder if it's not SD. 0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Solgaleo: 144-170 (30.1 - 35.5%) -- 29.4% chance to 3HKO
A mono attacking is fully a matchup fish but let's not pretend it's not something that wouldn't work to fully 6-0 multiple types. Sub/Cm/Morning Sun/Flash Cannon, bam zero ways to win from like 5 different types.
It's also got a hefty 137 base attack with physical options in Knock Off, Close Combat, Sunsteel Strike, Stone Edge, Flare Blitz/Heat Crash, etc. I feel like a lategame scarf set form this is definitely an option, band probably as well, though I kinda saw the potential for Scarf Outrage vs. what we expect to be a very powerful Dragon.
Weakness Policy 100% is a viable option as well, and against more hyper offensive teams Solgaleo can prove quite effective with an Agility set. You likely don't even need the weakness policy vs. fighting, since mixed with Psychic + CC pretty much sweeps all of still just like that. Psy also has meowstic for screens now if it wants to help with this.
One last thing I could see is a meteor beam set. A bit less setup needed and I can see effectively working vs. types like fly.
Edit: Realized I should've added some calcs from physical breakers in the tier so:
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Solgaleo: 338-402 (70.7 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Baxcalibur Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Solgaleo: 356-420 (74.4 - 87.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Solgaleo on a critical hit: 216-255 (45.1 - 53.3%) -- approx. 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Due to Kyurem-B's recent unban confirmation for monotype, I went onto showdown to compare Baxcalibur with it, running a similar enough set of D-Dance, Scale Shot & Icicle Spear, and a strong coverage move (EQ for Bax, FB for Kyu-B) and the images speak for themselves.
View attachment 580240 View attachment 580244
Due to Kyurem-B's recent unban confirmation for monotype, I went onto showdown to compare Baxcalibur with it, running a similar enough set of D-Dance, Scale Shot & Icicle Spear, and a strong coverage move (EQ for Bax, FB for Kyu-B) and the images speak for themselves.
As tempting as it is to post about the new pokemon drops and the potential pain Kyurem-Black and Solgaleo will bring (and maybe Deospeed? Hard to say cuz psychic is ass), I wanted to instead kinda make a final thoughts on DLC1 post. Both just to kinda discuss what we've exprienced, and also gauge where we are at in regards to certain pokemon before heading into DLC2.
I have openly been extremely critical of the balancing of SV Mono, but despite the heat I pour out for the tier, I don't think DLC1 was too far from reaching an ideal condition. There were definitely many problematic pokemon, but I think had the meta continued for an extra few months we would've reached somewhere sustainable, and I think its important to talk about the changes we could've made as they still will be relevant in DLC2. I'm saying this because like mentioned in this thread and in mono discord itself, there has been a lot of people echoing the idea of stuff like "Oh, x turbo-ubers mons are allowed now so surely Y ubers mon we banned in the past is fine to drop as well". In a similar vein, I am hoping people don't try to pass off our old brokens as "fine" because bigger ones dropped in.
Throughout discussion with many users across the tier, there is many different offenders people have in mind that hurt the tier. These two mons in particular I wanted to highlight first because I don't think they had an actual chance to warp the meta to the extent they could. Towards the later weeks of the tier, fightings matchup spread felt very weird and a lot of it felt like it came down to "does zamazenta smash this type or not". Its a weird pokemon thats kind of irritating to check in the builder, even with types that should have a good matchup into it like fairy or flying, both kind of getting owned by a well played idpress heavy slam. Ground, certain waters, fires, sabless darks and dragon teams also just have a complete lack of fun into the mon, but all that being said I don't think fighting was putting up the active results for me to call zamazenta a major player in tier imbalance, but its important to keep it in our minds as it definitely could be an issue in the future.
Ursaluna-BM is a more interesting one; it being broken is not a sentiment I share but its a take I've seen a lot and felt it worth mentioning. Throughout MWP I feel like ground has just been an extremely risky load into the ogertype meta, and a lot of the games it did have seemed to be mirrors and stuff. Nothing that actively showcased Bloodmoon as an issue, but I think if the tier shifts in ways to where ground is comfortable to load again, Bloodmoon might rise as a major issue.
With those 2 out of the way, I want to first discuss the true Demon(s?) of the tier.
These two mons have been so overbearing throughout the meta. The matchups they cover is over the top and they just sweep everything. Many games have come down to speed ties between these two, or random bulky clods/pexes fishing for pjab poisons. Water and Fire themselves, ground, steel, flying, dark, ghost, fairy, fighting literally little to no type had defensive counterplay to these mons, and offensively they are also super difficult to force out. Scarf lando sludge wave, any move from specs gren, defensive torn hurricane, specs flutter, even "techs" specifically for them like scarf cane wake don't kill it, or stuff like scarf megahorn great tusk which is unreliable. Not to mention the Epic Aspect of them horn leeching back any chip and often critting random mons that have a small chance to live. They also setup on a billion defensive mons (esp taunt wellspring). Nothing takes these out safe and cleanly, and they just shitstomp every type on the defensive side. I favor in the tier slightly more because its type is more susceptible to being rolled offensively, and its rocks weakness makes revenge killing it more plausible. this one however, has perfect support and moves and typing for what it does, and it just was a blatantly unhealthy presence. Let us not forget this pokemon going into dlc2. Other bigger brokens existing DOES NOT make this thing magically balanced.
I don't want to type a lot on these two, Chien Pao discussion has been beat to death and its interactions across matchups have not changed at all. Please suspect this mon at some point during DLC2. As for Baxcalibur, I feel like its kept putting up the immense builder pressure and in-game pressure ever since its suspect still, and it still should be on peoples radars...once Kyurem-Black gives it its job back. We shouldn't fall into the trap of "oh it got tested once so its fine forever". Depending on the state of the meta after quickban slates are over, this thing could be even more annoying (esp since Dragons general power level is gonna be rising due to new tools helping cover previous issues).
With those 2 out of the way, I want to first discuss the true Demon(s?) of the tier.
These two mons have been so overbearing throughout the meta. The matchups they cover is over the top and they just sweep everything. Many games have come down to speed ties between these two, or random bulky clods/pexes fishing for pjab poisons. Water and Fire themselves, ground, steel, flying, dark, ghost, fairy, fighting literally little to no type had defensive counterplay to these mons, and offensively they are also super difficult to force out. Scarf lando sludge wave, any move from specs gren, defensive torn hurricane, specs flutter, even "techs" specifically for them like scarf cane wake don't kill it, or stuff like scarf megahorn great tusk which is unreliable. Not to mention the Epic Aspect of them horn leeching back any chip and often critting random mons that have a small chance to live. They also setup on a billion defensive mons (esp taunt wellspring). Nothing takes these out safe and cleanly, and they just shitstomp every type on the defensive side. I favor in the tier slightly more because its type is more susceptible to being rolled offensively, and its rocks weakness makes revenge killing it more plausible. this one however, has perfect support and moves and typing for what it does, and it just was a blatantly unhealthy presence. Let us not forget this pokemon going into dlc2. Other bigger brokens existing DOES NOT make this thing magically balanced.
If DLC2 came out in February instead of now, these 2 mons would've both been suspected and banned in DLC1. That's probably the biggest takeaway I have and MWP more than reaffirms those beliefs to me.
K-B and Solgaleo I don't see lasting beyond a week, and I think there's some fun in Booster Energy making lesser used paradoxes more viable. Some demon is going to put a booster energy on a Calm Mind or Bulk Up Scream Tail and it's going to be funny as fuck. That being said I think between banning Booster Energy and banning mons like Roaring Moon/Flutter the council will go with the booster option.
I'm very strong on Booster Energy leaving to properly observe whether Paradox Pokemon are balanced in the metagame. This item doesn't bring any positive value to the tier and the speed / SpA / Atk boosts and based on the past few Booster Energy bans (like how everyone thought Roaring Moon was insane at the beginning of the previous metagame) its been a good route. I don't think this item adds any value to the tier overall, just more chaos in the builder.
It's ability is quite a lot and its quite customizable. It has Shed Tail support to shoot out powerful STAB Normal Terastorm. (Its base SpA is 130 and the Normal STAB is 120 BP.) Notably has access to Calm Mind and coverage options like Aura Sphere, Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, and Flamethrower. Not sure why I saw an Urshifu do 30% in rain from 3 consecutive Surging Strikes.
I'm not interested in this BoltBeam demon that invalidates several types behind veil. DD and CB in comparison to Baxcalibur means this does even more damage to Baxcalibur's intended checks like Quagsire / Galarian Weezing / Toxapex. Reshiram and Zekrom got banned but let's also think about how the tier enables this breaker even more. Ice: There is the DLC2 Snow defensive change, Aurora Veil, Dragon Dance, Scale Shot & Icicle Spear + Loaded Dice then an amazing Fusion Bolt topped off with Spikes support from lass. Dragon: Shed Tail Cyclizar, misc screens user like pult to enable booster energy mons + entry hazards chomper. I believe this is where we draw the line for power creep esp with the abundance of support this Pokemon has.
I'm very strong on Booster Energy leaving to properly observe whether Paradox Pokemon are balanced in the metagame. This item doesn't bring any positive value to the tier and the speed / SpA / Atk boosts and based on the past few Booster Energy bans (like how everyone thought Roaring Moon was insane at the beginning of the previous metagame). I don't think this item adds any value to the tier overall, just more chaos in the builder.
It's ability is quite a lot and its quite customizable. It has Shed Tail support to shoot out powerful STAB Normal Terastorm. (Its base SpA is 130 and the Normal STAB is 120 BP.) Notably has access to Calm Mind and coverage options like Aura Sphere, Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, and Flamethrower. Not sure why I saw an Urshifu do 30% in rain from 3 consecutive Surging Strikes.
I'm not interested in this BoltBeam demon that invalidates several types behind veil. DD and CB in comparison to Baxcalibur means this does even more damage to Baxcalibur's intended checks like Quagsire / Galarian Weezing / Toxapex. Reshiram and Zekrom got banned but let's also think about how the tier enables this breaker even more. Ice: There is the DLC2 Snow defensive change, Aurora Veil, Dragon Dance, Scale Shot & Icicle Spear + Loaded Dice then an amazing Fusion Bolt topped off with Spikes support from lass. Dragon: Shed Tail Cyclizar, misc screens user like pult to enable booster energy mons + entry hazards chomper. I believe this is where we draw the line for power creep esp with the abundance of support this Pokemon has.
Seconding these 2 points. At the top of the list is K-B and Booster for me, and I don't think these are problems that a further developed meta would solve.
Solgaleo is wild as well. It's a bit less cracked than expected but also that's partly from seeing it so far against the types that got the most from dlc expansion rather than the meta as a whole. Still, even with kinda weird synergy on it's types (in my opinion) any set you run with it guarantees free matchups. I was talking about before the drop. I feel like the only way it doesn't fully live up to my expectations so far is that Normal as a type is still kinda weird support wise. If you could do a full old gens core with Staraptor having Roost + P2 and Blissey then it'll be a different story. Even still, people had been making note of the perfect synergy it has with Shed Tail, which pretty much guarantees a sub up against bulkier opponents. Combine that with calm mind, rock polish, and a crazy movepool and it goes ham. This one I might want to wait on a tiny bit longer, only thing that I think holds it back from needing to go is Normal being a bit wonky comp wise.
Haven't seen Blaziken yet, which we know got a history.
Gouging Fire stronk. Awesome for role compression and Dragon's defensive core as expected. I like Special Defensive with DD/Morning Sun/Heat Crash/EQ so far, and alongside this archaludon fills out the physical side and rocks spport. Hadn't used dragon too much yet my self, but from what I saw Gouging Fire is solid. It did sweep one match, but I think that was moreso misplays on the opp in the meta allowing me to get +2, structurally it's phenomenal. It hasn't fully lived up to expectations, but I have seen it do insane things in sun. I think the matchups we need to watch it for most closely are in the fire vs. balance builds. Just wanna see a touch more of it but I think we'd be able to tell relatively quickly if it's banworthy from those mus.
Archaludon in other news is a champ, not bringing it up cause it's unhealthy but cause I just love this thing, super viable on both steel and dragon and hard counters some top threats like Ogerpon, Entei Paradox thing, K-B, and isn't by any means too passive.
This mon has two types to support all it does super well. High attack stat and the support with either Veil or Shedtail make it very tough to kill and it just cleans house with the enemy Team. Not to Mention that it ignores Unaware and Boltbeam coverage, which makes Water regret ever existing. It is basically a Mega Baxcalibur, and that thing was already suspect tested and Kyurem-Black is just a full on level up to that.
This Item just enhances the issue of certain Pokemon, while other types can't even access it at all. Flutter, Roaring Moon, Newly added Gouging Fire, walking Wake, Iron Boulder, Iron Valiant. All become much more difficult to truely stop or check and i don't think any of the mons not listed add much to the Metagame because of booster energy. The Item was given a second chance but testing with and against it, i don't feel like it should stay.
Not as clear but still worth keeping an eye on is Gourging Fire. that mon has a lot of options and as long as booster energy is around, it just feels near impossible to know what the set will actually be. It has a very solid statline and the typing is very good offensively and defensively to cover Dragons holes while on Fire it finds itself with more Item options and a bascially permanent statboost. Shoutout also to defense boosting EQ Flareblitz Dragon dance Morning sun, very fun set to defensively setup on physical threats.
Yeah not a suprise here, this thing is genuinly insane. Great typing and Bulk make it very flexible. The only thing it is missing is top tier support on it's types. KyuB and gourging fire both have better support on their types, but i think Solgaleo is the biggest offender in a vacuum. I am not yet sure if it should be banned from the metagame outright or not, but so far it looks a bit too much to handle.
On the positive side, i believe Archaludon with stamina makes it a very very solid check to multiple threats that you can encounter and even SE stab hits can be tanked. The movepool is okay. It's only real weakness is, just like Goodra-H, having no recovery. I believe Goodra-H will be better on Dragon in the long run, to check special attacking Fairys, but Archaludon has a place in a few teams and seems a good alternative non the less.
Actually a fun mon. I hate the synergie with Shed Tail, tho in general i think Shed Tail is a issue to worth talk aboutat one point. Outside of that, it has a great movepool, decent stats and an ability that ensures the passed sub is there to stay for a hit or two atleast. Normal has gotten quite a few toys to play around with, once the very clearly overtuned stuff is gone, it might become a very solid type. If Terapagos is too much when stuff like KyuB might get the boot, we will see.
Obvious note to all of this:
first day or week impressions are just that, first week impressions and opinions. This can easily be very wrong and we find out the metagame developed perfectly well around all that. I just wanted to share my view and experiences.
Playtesting day 1 Grass straight, some quick thoughts:
1- Grass definitely ain't bottom 5 (yayy!), and it is performing better than many people thought.
2- Whimsicott is so so back, it gives the ability to stop setup sweepers any time (incluiding recent threats such as Kyurem-Black and Minior). Prankster Stun Spore is also incredible to check certain threats immediately.
3- Abomasnow is still decent, many Pokemon make good use of Aurora Veil
4- Recent addition of kyurem-black reduced baxcalibur usage, which is better for Grass (no ice shard makes easier for grass teams deal w/ dragon).
5- I have mixed feelings about Hydrapple. In one way its an excellent check for stuff like Volcanion and Heatran, but seems to do less than Sinistcha (a potent wincon for grass teams) would. Fickle Beam also seems to proc less often than we thought and therefore unreliable. Good mon but hard to fit.
6- Certain matchups can be hard to beat without Sinistcha (Rock is one of them) whereas Hydrapple can make matchups like Steel a bit easier.
This is the first team strucuture I came up with: (/hydrapple)
Other types:
7- Terapagos not as uber powerful as I thought, it has a powerful signature STAB move but nothing too serious to deal with. It's prone to toxic / status but shed tail support can make it very annoying to face. I see it as a "worse version of Magearna", but should be noted it is only available to normal teams which don't have the greatest support to back it up. Calm Mind is the most frequent set I have met on ladder/roomtours, not sure if there are other ways to use it.
8- Gouging Fire living to its expectations for sure, especially on Fire teams. Protosynthesis + Scale Shot / Fire STAB and good offensive stats make it a menace to check for many types.
9- Kyurem-Black looking surely very powerful on paper because of its massive offensive stats and Dragon Dance but hasn't been that appealing (in the sense i'd cast the ban hammer) for me yet. Need some more playtesting to see but surely could agree on a quickban or suspect for it.
10- Archaludon feels like its underperforming. Maybe I am wrong but we will see as time passes by. Hoodra seems to be more durable, has sap sipper / shell armor to counter important stuff on the meta which can be more useful than Stamina in most occasions.
Meta's subject to change, so of course this is my first take on things and should be taken with a grain of salt. Anyways looking forward to its development, nothing seems too serious as of now but for me Kyurem-Black and Gouging Fire stands out for sure. Perharps we will finally have the metagame we always dreamt to have, it's looking nice to me so far.
Wanted to share some thoughts on potential tiering action going forward after building a bunch, playing like 60 games and taking some time to reflect:
I think we all knew going into this DLC that Kyurem-B was going to be extremely broken, and after some definitely very necessary playtesting, I can safely conclude even at this stage that it has no business being in a serious competitive metagame. Quelle suprise! I think what pushes this mon over the edge for me compared to Baxcalibur is the massive bulk; for reference, Baxcalibur has 115/92/86 bulk, while Kyurem-B has 125/100/90. This bulk naturally makes Kyurem-B far harder to revenge kill than Baxcalibur, and with the way Kyurem-B's stats work out, you can very easily gear it to survive hits such as a Scarf Enamorus Moonblast with minimal investment (see the sample set below for an example). This isn't even accounting for snow and Veil support on Ice; under snow Kyurem-B can achieve feats such as taking a +2 Rock Blast from Cloyster and surviving a +2 Dragon Claw from Gouging Fire. Furthermore, the team support for Kyurem-B on both types is perfect for enabling it, with the aforementioned snow and Veil support on Ice, and Shed Tail, Gouging Fire, and Hisuian Goodra support on Dragon. This isn't even going into the absolutely mammoth Attack stat (higher than even Adamant Baxcalibur) and that Kyurem-B can blow through Unaware walls with Teravolt, limiting its counterplay even further. Kyurem-B never should have freed, and the council should quickban it ASAP.
I was willing to give this a shot, but fundamentally, Solgaleo is just way too powerful for the metagame despite being restricted to types that were previously somewhat middling. For the avoidance of posting a wall of calcs to prove my point, suffice it to say that this mon is hard to take down in theory, and even harder to deal with in practice. Steel/Psychic is a really good defensive typing despite the common weaknesses, and Solgaleo has the massive natural bulk coupled with access to reliable recovery to make it shine. Aside from being a defensive tank, Solgaleo also has an incredible offensive presence, with every coverage move under the sun (ba-dum-tiss) and good offensive stats on both sides. All of this combines to create an extremely versatile threat that is incredibly unpredictable and unreasonable for most teams to deal with. It's further worth noting a lot of counterplay to certain sets cannot check others; for example, you could throw in Great Tusk to answer what you think is a physical set, only to be met with bulky Calm Mind. Virtually the only drawback Solgaleo has is the lack of a physical boosting move, but given its access to Calm Mind and Flame Charge as well as its huge bulk letting it easily take advantage of Weakness Policy, this is hardly an issue. Given all of this and my personal testing playing both with it and against it, it is my opinion Solgaleo should be quickbanned.
I've seen some people losing their minds a bit over pineapple head Entei here, and while it is undoubtedly very strong on both of its types, I struggle to find it broken at this juncture. While Gouging Fire is strong and bulky with a type that is both offensively and defensively excellent, so far it hasn't felt truly overpowered to a point where it is quickban worthy to me. On Dragon it serves a valuable role as a Chien-Pao and blanket Ice and physical check, while on Fire it has a defensive purpose as a bulky Water neutrality. What keeps Gouging Fire in tolerable territory for me is its somewhat middling Attack and Speed combined with the fact that it can't really do everything it wants at once; it can't both be very bulky and immediately offensively threatening. I heard some people say Booster/sun makes this broken, and right now I honestly disagree; you can't gear Gouging Fire to get a Speed boost from Protosynthesis without cutting into its Attack, and even though it can be incredibly strong under sun for sure, so far it has never felt overwhelming or unbeatable to me. I could see this mon maybe proving to be too much down the line, but right now I feel it adds a lot to teambuilding on both types and needs more time in the metagame before we immediately leap to quickbans.
Going to go against what I see to be popular opinion here: I think people are massively overreacting to Booster Energy right now, and more time should be taken in a metagame without Kyurem-B or Solgaleo to decide whether this item is genuinely overpowered. In my experience, while this item is definitely very powerful, I can't really point to multiple mons at present where I really think this item pushes over the edge. I do think there is serious merit to having this item in the tier beyond just another form of bland powercreep; it offers valuable role compression in teambuilding by allowing your speed control to fulfill other purposes on your team. An example of this would be Booster Iron Treads, who can serve both as speed control and a spinner in one slot. Furthermore, Booster Energy, being an immediately consumed item, also provides counterplay to the Knock Off spam that is so prevalent in the tier, and makes Poltergeist a move with actual drawbacks. The most egregious abuser of Booster Energy is probably Flutter Mane, who can be absolutely demonic with a CM set behind Screens, but even Flutter Mane is still vulnerable to priority, has low physical Defense, has to take time to boost, and can only abuse Booster's power once per game. I've heard Roaring Moon and Iron Valiant mentioned as well, but personally they don't feel so overpowered with Booster to me right now that it warrants an immediate quickban; this is a metagame with plenty of priority and sturdy defensive walls, and again while sometimes a one-time boost is all you need, being forced out at any point means these mons are itemless for the rest of the game. Moreover, as another example of potential counterplay I think this tier has plenty of good phazing options, and I don't think it's unreasonable to include one on your team given that phazing has many other applications besides just checking Booster mons. I think in any case, if it is just one or two outlying mons that are broken with Booster, that indicates to me that those mons are overpowered rather than the item itself, and they should be banned instead of an item that otherwise adds a fair bit to the tier strategically. I can see Booster Energy being perhaps too much for the metagame in the long term, but I think we should hold off an overly zealous immediate quickban due to its nuances and unique role for teambuilding.
I admittedly have only played against Terapagos and not used it myself, but while it's obviously very strong, nothing about it immediately leaps out as broken to me. The only really compelling argument I have seen thus far as to why it is too much is Tera Shell being nightmarish to deal with Shed Tail support, but this to me seems more like an argument to ban Shed Tail rather than Terapagos itself, which frankly I would support. I've thought for a while now that Shed Tail is a broken support move that enables way too many threats and cheese strategies (e.g., Ursaluna-B, Baxcalibur), and I think if it continues to be a problem the council should consider it for a quickban down the line. I would be interested to hear other people's thoughts on this, as I have heard similar sentiment among the community at times.
TL;DR Quickban Kyurem-B and Solgaleo; monitor Gouging Fire, Booster Energy, and Shed Tail. As I have said before, it would be really good for council members to reply to this thread with their individual thoughts on tiering action for a change as well.
Below are some sample sets I have made for the DLC2 mons for anyone looking to experiment:
The question I have for the thread is what is going to happen is Ice abuses both chien pao, kyu-B, and baxcaliburr all on the same team with snowtails veil support. The problem is defo kyu-B but how long will it last?
: silly, never should have been released : paradoxes are too fast and a number of them effectively become unrestricted scarfers : cm sets are unkillable and agility weakness policy sets are free wins when terrain is active :7 turns of excadrill has never worked in this tier and this gen is not exception
wait for it tier
: has never worked in this tier and is only being kept in check by booster pushing speed tiers through the roof OR : these cant coexist
Hello, not a long post but just wanted to share some quick thoughts about the recent unbans and new Pokemon that were released. This post is not reflective of the rest of the council's thoughts and are just my opinions only.
I think there are some clearly problematic things that need to be gone soon: Booster Energy, Kyurem-B, Solgaleo, Blaziken, Smooth Rock and Shed Tail/Cyclizar and Gouging Fire maybe to a lesser extent.
Booster Energy
- this item singlehandedly pushes a bunch of Pokemon over the top in my opinion; all of Flutter Mane, Iron Valiant, Gouging Fire, Roaring Moon and Iron Boulder become near impossible to stop without at least sacrificing some Pokemon everytime to deal with them. Not to mention, not all the types have the lap of luxury to have Pokemon that take advantage of this item so it skews the metagame towards a select group of types as a result from what I've seen.
Kyurem-B - this thing has not missed a beat since SS where it first got Dragon Dance. I thought losing Roost might make it a bit more reasonable to deal with but newfound access to Scale Shot in tandem with Loaded Dice and Icicle Spear is just too much for the tier. Not to mention Fusion Bolt which gives it near perfect coverage and has amazing support on both types; Shed Tail on Dragon and Snow + Screens on Ice so it gets more than enough opportunities to setup quite comfortably. Teravolt is great for it too and this guy singlehandedly invalidates Water :( —gotta go!
Solgaleo - I did vote to keep this thing banned at first but part of me thought that it would be fine but that was only coz I was focusing on the physical sets but after seeing the bulky setup stuff with Calm Mind, I'm glad I voted to keep it banned. The typing is incredible and natural bulk is great too and a good ability to complement its role too. I saw someone said it doesn't have the greatest of support on its types to facilitate its role but I don't think I necessarily agree with that. Steel and Psychic are both capable of supporting it well in my opinion, maybe Psychic hasn't been explored as much because of all the other exciting stuff going around but if it remains free I think both types would complement it very well and it'll continue to be too much of a threat for the tier.
FTR I voted to keep all of the above banned but they didn't listen...
Blaziken - Blaziken probably hasn't been explored as much as some of the Pokemon but it has already had a rough history with the tier; access to Speed Boost and Swords with great STABs and coverage is overbearing. Also has good support on Fire teams right now with good sun, Healing Wish support and other hard hitters to complement its role as a strong breaker. I think Fighting can also complement it similarly and can also adapt to use Screens to support and you also have a Healing Wish user in Hilligant to help out. Probably not as problematic as the above three but I think I'd like to see it go sooner rather than later anyway.
Smooth Rock
- pretty self-explanatory, Excadrill is back and free 8 turns of Sand is not healthy by any means.
Shed Tail OR Cyclizar - might be a controversial discussion to some but we discussed about this a bit in the council chat as well but I think there's mutual agreement that Shed Tail support is unhealthy and needs to go; Pokemon like Kyurem-B, Gouging Fire, Roaring Moon and Terapagos to a lesser extent, getting a pivot and free sub is far from healthy. However, the point of contention is if the move as a whole is problem or if its just Cyclizar's access to the move that's overbearing. Personally, I'm of the opinion that Cyclizar is the only Pokemon that abuses it to an unhealthy extent given all the Pokemon I listed above are Pokemon that share the same type as Cyclizar and I am yet to see any Steel or Grass-type teams abuse Shed Tail support from Orthworm or Sceptile to the same degree. Curious to see how others feel about Shed Tail vs. Cyclizar right now.
Gouging Fire - I've seen people use all kinds of sets on it, having access to Sun in tandem with Sun-boosted Protosynthesis and 75% Morning Sun by default along with Dragon Dance feels a bit much. I haven't used it as much as I'd like to but from the little bit I've used it and based on what I've seen so far it treads the line of unhealthy. Slight preference to ban it but don't feel that strongly either way, for now.
That's all I wanted to share, we'll be having our first quickban slate over the weekend so looking forward to seeing how that goes. Reading the above posts was great so hope everyone also shares their thoughts about the current state of the tier.
Memes aside, here are some thoughts on two things that I feel strongly about. I haven't tried out the metagame yet but I figured these were parts of the tier I wanted to talk about regardless.
Blaziken is one of those Pokemon that will never be balanced in Monotype to me because of how unbalanced an incredible Speed Boost user can be in the format. The general premise is that Blaziken having extremely good STABs, coverage, and offensive stats means that it usually takes down 2-3 Pokemon within a game if not ending it completely. Fire/Fighting STABs combined with coverage like Knock Off, ThunderPunch and Earthquake makes it one of the Pokemon that can easily pick and choose an extra 2-3 matchups it would like to cover and you don't even need to run Fire STAB on Fire or Fighting STAB on Fighting. With building for its presence already being really hard, playing around it can be extremely scuffed too since you pretty much have to prevent it from getting boosts on a weaker Pokemon so that you don't lose half your team. An example of how strong Blaziken is can be seen in a Dragon matchup, which is a traditionally bad matchup for Fire. Assuming Blaziken has Knock Off and Close Combat, it can hit everything on the type for neutral or super effective damage. As something like Stealth Rock Kommo-o or Hisuian Goodra does not OHKO Blaziken, it can use them to get 3 Speed Boosts, or a 2 Speed Boosts and a Swords Dance boost. It outspeeds even Choice Scarf Dragapult and Walking Wake at +3, and the Dragon user has to force something like Garchomp or Dragonite to trade for it. Since Fire is an incredibly offensive type, trading Blaziken for Garchomp and Dragonite is incredibly good for a Pokemon like Hearthflame Mask Ogerpon, meaning it can break a lot easier. Playing against Blaziken is really hard because you usually have to sack crucial Pokemon on your team to prevent it from sweeping if it doesn't sweep outright, which it probably will in a majority of matchups where it's favored to do so.
Shed tail is an uncompetitive aspect of the game and should not be allowed. It enables extremely strong wallbreakers too easily to be considered competitive. Since there are multiple abusers of the move, I believe that it should be treated like Shadow Tag, which has multiple viable users of the ability and was therefore banned. With Cyclizar set aside, Orthworm and Sceptile also get the move with viable abusers on both types to follow them. Even though I haven't tried Sceptile yet, Orthworm using Shed tail to support Kingambit or Gholdengo has been as unhealthy as Cyclizar using it to support Baxcalibur or Dragapult. Kingambit or Gholdengo getting a free turn is game changing considering they're both strong setup sweepers that you have to stop before they get out of hand, with Kingambit being the most dangerous Swords Dance user in the tier. For example, both Kingambit and Gholdengo can tear apart pretty much any balance type when played well without Shed tail, so the move just makes it easier and less skill-based. It wouldn't be fair to say Cyclizar's only role on Dragon is Shed tail either considering it is one of the only hazard removal options, so the move itself should be banned due to general uncompetitiveness and there has been precedent in the past to support the decision.
I was talking about before the drop. I feel like the only way it doesn't fully live up to my expectations so far is that Normal as a type is still kinda weird support wise. If you could do a full old gens core with Staraptor having Roost + P2 and Blissey then it'll be a different story. Even still, people had been making note of the perfect synergy it has with Shed Tail, which pretty much guarantees a sub up against bulkier opponents. Combine that with calm mind, rock polish, and a crazy movepool and it goes ham. This one I might want to wait on a tiny bit longer, only thing that I think holds it back from needing to go is Normal being a bit wonky comp wise. 
/hydrapple) 
:7 turns of excadrill has never worked in this tier and this gen is not exception
: has never worked in this tier and is only being kept in check by booster pushing speed tiers through the roof
OR 
: these cant coexist
- might be a controversial discussion to some but we discussed about this a bit in the council chat as well but I think there's mutual agreement that Shed Tail support is unhealthy and needs to go; Pokemon like Kyurem-B, Gouging Fire, Roaring Moon and Terapagos to a lesser extent, getting a pivot and free sub is far from healthy. However, the point of contention is if the move as a whole is problem or if its just Cyclizar's access to the move that's overbearing. Personally, I'm of the opinion that Cyclizar is the only Pokemon that abuses it to an unhealthy extent given all the Pokemon I listed above are Pokemon that share the same type as Cyclizar and I am yet to see any Steel or Grass-type teams abuse Shed Tail support from Orthworm or Sceptile to the same degree. Curious to see how others feel about Shed Tail vs. Cyclizar right now.
