Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

[arnimacarni]

It's a much better defensive profile in gen 3 than it is nowadays considering that the bug weakness, while relatively bad to have in gen 3, has gotten so much worse with the advent of U-Turn. enough about ADV tho, predictions for the first ban of DLC2 that isn't a pokemon that we've talked to death?

I can see both Great Neck and Iron Bridge being suuuper contentious in the first days. Bridge can make rain really viable out of nowhere, and a good electric type is missing in the current meta. Also Flaming Doggers and Iron Rocks can be interesting as we haven't seen their signature moves and all other Paradox Legends got one, but Past Entei won't be anything to write home about due to rocks weakness, and Hydrapplin too if it is Bug/Dragon in the end.

 

[Eeveeto]

I can see both Great Neck and Iron Bridge being suuuper contentious in the first days. Bridge can make rain really viable out of nowhere, and a good electric type is missing in the current meta. Also Flaming Doggers and Iron Rocks can be interesting as we haven't seen their signature moves and all other Paradox Legends got one, but Past Entei won't be anything to write home about due to rocks weakness, and Hydrapplin too if it is Bug/Dragon in the end.

Zapdos has not been in OU for 8 Gens (and viable in BW too) to read this type of shit.

 

[658Greninja]

I can see both Great Neck and Iron Bridge being suuuper contentious in the first days. Bridge can make rain really viable out of nowhere, and a good electric type is missing in the current meta. Also Flaming Doggers and Iron Rocks can be interesting as we haven't seen their signature moves and all other Paradox Legends got one, but Past Entei won't be anything to write home about due to rocks weakness, and Hydrapplin too if it is Bug/Dragon in the end.

“a good electric type is missing in the current meta”

Eeveeto pointed this out but, there is no way you just called Zapdos mid.

Considering the fact that the flying weak Tusk is the most common electric immune and Ting-Lu is the only common electric immune that can make Zapdos run for its money, I’d say it’s in a fantastic spot rn. Especially since Ting-Lu can be chipped down over the course of a game.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Zapdos has not been in OU for 8 Gens (and viable in BW too) to read this type of shit.

i've always thought that bw shouldn't really count against zapdos's ou record because if that meta was actually balanced properly then it's likely that zapdos would be ou in it too

and a good electric type is missing in the current meta

even outside of zapdos, which is among the best mons in the current meta, why do you think we've got such a shortage of strong electric moves? i'm not certain it's the best idea to run a move that, if the opponent predicts it properly, gives any ground-type the opportunity to switch in and threaten this ground-weak mon

 

[Fusion Flare]

Terapagos, mostly because its probably gonna have some super shitter form that abuses tera to high hell

Terapagos screams “i have 670 bst” to me. No way it’s NOT starting in Ubers.

 

[Eeveeto]

Terapagos screams “i have 670 bst” to me. No way it’s NOT starting in Ubers.

Theorically its a turtle. Could be slow, with a bad defensive typing (still unrevealed) and no TR in the arsenal. Probably not happening, but still. Hoopa-U and Zamazenta also have that BST and are perfectly fine (some people do hate the dog, but personally I think its very healthy and good for the meta).

 

[Soiramio3000]

the fact that sending it in against anything faster immediately tells the opponent "HEY I'M GOING TO CLICK FIRST IMPRESSION"

well, if it was super fast like dragapult it would have little to no use for first impression.
it would be a glass canon, like weavile.

 

[RudeLiees]

hydreigon ivery underrated rn, good double typing, immunity to ground (great tusk will never switch into him)

my favorite set, the one I use rn is :
Hydreigon @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Draco Meteor
- Flash Cannon
- U-turn/focus blast/hydro pump/flamethrower

I would know the though Of others player for this Pokémon
Edit : fixed grammar

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Theorically its a turtle. Could be slow, with a bad defensive typing (still unrevealed) and no TR in the arsenal. Probably not happening, but still. Hoopa-U and Zamazenta also have that BST and are perfectly fine (some people do hate the dog, but personally I think its very healthy and good for the meta).

if it's slow, has average attacking stats, and has neither recovery nor setup, even a good defensive type might leave it manageable with 670 bst. but there are just too many unknown variables right now to guarantee it starting in or out of ubers

 

[YubelVT]

Theorically its a turtle. Could be slow, with a bad defensive typing (still unrevealed) and no TR in the arsenal. Probably not happening, but still. Hoopa-U and Zamazenta also have that BST and are perfectly fine (some people do hate the dog, but personally I think its very healthy and good for the meta).

The thing about Hoopa-U is that the only good things about it are its attacking stats. Base 80 speed sucks, Psychic/Dark typing sucks defensively, and Magician was a practically useless ability until the advent of Eject Pack. Yeah it's bulky on the special side, but U-Turn is a good move too and its physical bulk sucks ass. Zamazenta is bad by the standards of Ubers, which are quite high, and quite honestly it's only fine in OU as of now because gholdengo and to a lesser extent valiant are in the tier.

 

[Ruft]

There is a new tiering survey to gauge public opinion on which Pokemon should be unbanned from Ubers to OU with the release of the Indigo Disk DLC, please vote!

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-tiering-surveys.3711911/post-9886943

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

i voted 1 on everything except for gliscor, roaring moon, and volcarona, on which i voted 2. i think that dropping pokemon from ubers in general will create far more problems with the early dlc2 meta than it will solve and most of them will eventually get rebanned anyway. however, i would support suspects on the three i voted 2 on at some point, and here's why:

• gliscor was a menace, no doubt about it. however, i can't deny that its brokenness is directly dependent on the viability of gholdengo and the distribution of hazard removal. if either one of those changes in dlc2, or if gholdengo gets banned, i would support a suspect test on gliscor
• we needed this one gone, but i feel like we as a community were a bit too heavily influenced by the opinions of prominent voices—i don't recall roaring moon having much discussion going on about it before finch came out and said it was the biggest problem in the tier. i feel that its ban was justified despite not believing that it was the biggest issue at the time, but i would still support a retest on it at some point in the future, just to make sure
• again, justified ban, and i believe the outcry against it was a massive overreaction, but it still ultimately deserves due process at some point and i feel that that point is coming up. it got a vote for dlc1, i'd like to see if opinions have changed enough on it to warrant a test

also, if firepon gets support to drop, i swear i will start calling the ogerpon forms silly names again until she's back out of the tier, so vote wisely

lastly, a million thanks to the council for conducting this survey and not letting crown tundra repeat itself. this time it'll be our fault

 

[awyp]

There is a new tiering survey to gauge public opinion on which Pokemon should be unbanned from Ubers to OU with the release of the Indigo Disk DLC, please vote!

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-tiering-surveys.3711911/post-9886943

Essentially voted keep ubers for everything except Volc, Darkrai and both Shifus

 

[taziathegreat]

I can see both Great Neck and Iron Bridge being suuuper contentious in the first days. Bridge can make rain really viable out of nowhere, and a good electric type is missing in the current meta. Also Flaming Doggers and Iron Rocks can be interesting as we haven't seen their signature moves and all other Paradox Legends got one, but Past Entei won't be anything to write home about due to rocks weakness, and Hydrapplin too if it is Bug/Dragon in the end.

why are we assuming a Fire and dragon Pokémon with a 590 BST, signature move we don’t know anything about yet an an ability that buffs it in a weather it was already getting buffed in will be mid at best.

If anything it has the tools to be one of the best Pokémon in the tier.

 

[Heatranator]

There is a new tiering survey to gauge public opinion on which Pokemon should be unbanned from Ubers to OU with the release of the Indigo Disk DLC, please vote!

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-tiering-surveys.3711911/post-9886943

The only pokemon I didn't vote for a 1 were Gliscor (3), Roaring Moon (3), Urshifu-Rapid (2) and Volcarona (2). Not because I think that they should be necessarily unbanned, they just are less broken than the others. Also who put Lando-I on the tiering survey? I'm not mad, I'm just disappointed.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

i voted 1 on everything except for gliscor, roaring moon, and volcarona, on which i voted 2. i think that dropping pokemon from ubers in general will create far more problems with the early dlc2 meta than it will solve and most of them will eventually get rebanned anyway. however, i would support suspects on the three i voted 2 on at some point, and here's why:

• gliscor was a menace, no doubt about it. however, i can't deny that its brokenness is directly dependent on the viability of gholdengo and the distribution of hazard removal. if either one of those changes in dlc2, or if gholdengo gets banned, i would support a suspect test on gliscor
• we needed this one gone, but i feel like we as a community were a bit too heavily influenced by the opinions of prominent voices—i don't recall roaring moon having much discussion going on about it before finch came out and said it was the biggest problem in the tier. i feel that its ban was justified despite not believing that it was the biggest issue at the time, but i would still support a retest on it at some point in the future, just to make sure
• again, justified ban, and i believe the outcry against it was a massive overreaction, but it still ultimately deserves due process at some point and i feel that that point is coming up. it got a vote for dlc1, i'd like to see if opinions have changed enough on it to warrant a test

Completely agree with your take on Roaring Moon, even if it ends up ultimately being a problem I feel we were kind of just told that was the case instead of seeing it. Also felt like a bit of a victim of circumstance where it was a very particular climate it would present an issue in and I dont think it's universally a broken Mon. Will post my whole slate soon

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

why are we assuming a Fire and dragon Pokémon with a 590 BST, signature move we don’t know anything about yet an an ability that buffs it in a weather it was already getting buffed in will be mid at best.

If anything it has the tools to be one of the best Pokémon in the tier.

because we still don't actually know what the signature move does, or what its movepool is like. what if it's got a gen 4 flareon movepool? or a pre-ss kyub movepool? what if the signature is just syrup bomb again? what if it hard-loses to every other dragon-type on the vr? i think assuming that it will be mid at best is wrong, but assuming it's going to be a powerhouse in the tier is equally wrong

 

[Avant Heim]

There is a new tiering survey to gauge public opinion on which Pokemon should be unbanned from Ubers to OU with the release of the Indigo Disk DLC, please vote!

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-tiering-surveys.3711911/post-9886943

Lando-I and Darkrai on the tiering survey?
oh we are so back

 

[YubelVT]

Annihilape - 3: In theory it should be fine, especially with a bunch of returning pokemon, but at the same time I can see it causing major problems so it's a middle of the road vote for me.

Baxcalibur - 1: Don't fucking let this thing back ever keep it away.

Gliscor - 5*: My 5 vote hinges entirely on it not being in the tier at the same time as Gholdengo. Keep it banned otherwise.

Landorus-I - 1: It got Nasty Plot and webs is actually good, don't unban this fucker.

Ogerpon-H - 1: Y'know how Waterpon is already borderline banworthy? We don't need a second ogerpon forme that restricts teambuilding.

Palafin - 1: Only walled by Waterpon and even then just barely because of CC. Keep banned.

Roaring Moon - 1: Nothing about it has changed it still has knock off.

Sneasler - 1: I would give this thing a -25565 vote if I could, Sneasler will never not be fucking obscene by OU standards. Assuming the tapus come back, sneasler would only get better and sneasler was already really fucking good. Keep OUT.

Ursaluna-B - 2: So I think there's a slight chance that this guy is fine going into DLC2 and could maybe come back, but that chance is very small.

Urshifu (both) - 2: Same as above.

Volcarona - 3: Volcarona is objectively super good this gen, but I would like to see it retested at some point.

Zamazenta-C - 1: Zamazenta is already good, I don't want Objectively Better Zamazenta™ in the tier

Darkrai - 1: No.


Others

Reshiram: I think that if Reshiram doesn't suddenly get like nasty plot or something, I would like to see her tested in the tier.

 

[Magcargo]

So, I am making this list assuming that we will TIER AND BAN VERY LIBERALLY within the first month (so multiple QBs within the first few weeks of the metagame).

1
I despise this mon. It definitely is worse now than in the initial stages of the metagame, but I still have nightmares about this guy.
4
Honestly think this guy is broken AF still, but we may have jumped the shark by banning it so fast. I think Veil teams would have naturally become less popular over time.
5
I like a Gliscor-less meta quite a bit, but this guy honestly isn't broken, and I think its presence will be fine in the new metagame. If it were suspected again, I'd probably vote DNB, even if Ghold remains in the tier. This is a Pokemon I was extremely 50/50 on in the first place so I see myself on either side of the coin.
2
Playing UUbers made me realize this mon is broken af. Its just way too strong, even with Scarf.
1
I despise this pokemon. I don't like running rocks and its just too strong in sun, as well as way too fast.
1
Anyone playing UUbers knows that this Pokemon is strong af still. We don't need it in the tier. Banded Wave Crashes and Jet punches with Tera Water are war crimes in terms of damage.
4
I think this Pokemon is likely still broken, but dropping it down wouldn't hurt since its been in the tier for so long.
4
Probably still banworthy, but I don't like how fast we got rid of it after Gliscor's ban, esp cause it was QB'd. Nonetheless, I do see it getting banned again.
3
Broken AF still, but with heightened speed and power in a new meta, it MAY become more manageable, though I doubt it. Expecting it to get QB'd.
Single 2
Playing UUbers made me realize this mon is still broken AF. Wicked Blow is too strong and has limited switch-ins. Its like gambit but with better speed. Less broken than Chien-Pao, but that is an incredibly high bar.
Rapid 5
Honestly, I don't think this guy was broken in the first place. Seeing its performance being so poor in UUbers compared to other Pokemon makes me think it would be a rather safe unban, particularly as it likely isn't even stronger than some key Pokemon in the current metagame like Ogerpon-W.
5
I don't think this Pokemon should have been banned in the first place in retrospect.
5
This Pokemon doesn't feel much better than the regular version when playing UUbers. Yes, the bulk and typing are better, but its still hamstrung by 4MSS since it can't run all of BP, Behemoth Bash, ID, Rest, Roar, Stone edge, etc. The fact that it isn't immune to hazards in a hazard meta is a big issue, esp if Gliscor returns. Expecting it to be strong but not OP.
5
I think there is a good chance for this to be QB'd, but I feel we should have tested it ever since Dark Void got nerfed back in gen 7.
Others: , ,
Gonna be real, these mons are probably all still broken. I am not a Solgaleo believer, though there is a decent shot it gets banned considering people are complaining about Ghold being too bulky and this guy has way better bulk than that + good coverage, but mid offensive stats. To me, it seems like a jacked Metagross, but I am not the smartest evaluator of power to be fair. Iron Bundle is probably broken too due to perfect coverage still, but encore and a fast freeze dry are nice + the zama forms would give it trouble. Genesect I think is going to still be broken, but it would be fair to test since it likely will be nerfed. We don't have confirmation its coming back tho.

Bring out the haha reacts!

 

[YubelVT]

4
Probably still banworthy, but I don't like how fast we got rid of it after Gliscor's ban, esp cause it was QB'd. Nonetheless, I do see it getting banned again.

Look ima be real. I see where you're coming from, but you need to understand something. Sneasler only has a single hard wall, being dondozo, and dondozo doesn't fit on every team. Zaptres are soft checks at best and Gholdengo is the reason you don't run both stabs on the same set. Sneasler was broken when it released and it's only gotten better. Like I can almost guarantee that sneasler win rates right before it was banned was edging towards 50% (do not fact check this) because it beat everything other than hard stall, which was beaten by its teammates.

 

[1LDK]

1, it kills stall so 1984 smogon would do everything in their power to stop it, there's no point

5, I never got to taste the buffed bax in DLC 1 due to uni stuff, I hope I can make it this time

3, im willing to get him back on the tier IF we get more hazard removal AND dengo gets banned, which is a big IF and major copeium, but it would be nice if he comes back and dengo gets out, even tho that's a massive buff for stall

1, POWER CREEP DOESN'T WORK ON ME JOHN

also a 3 depending on the mons we get, but from the trailers it looks like we are gonna get jack shit

1, I should be voting 5 because walls the fuck out of him, but I think I'm the only one who wants to do that

4, I would like to see him in OU again because I still do not believe is broken, but its checks and counters can be tempered with DLC coming up

3, its counters are there, but the hax is also there, I don't have a real opinion on sneas tbh

1, there's like 4 checks to this thing and all of them are stall exclusive, so FUCK THAT

5, just to try him out

4, again, I think it deserves another try, especially with zapdos and oger

5, this thing did not deserve the quick ban, and there is defensive and offensive value to be had, It's time we allow this thing back

1, T H E W A L L

3, i don't care tbh

any other unbans? and are my candidates

Are you good at the game?

 

[SDK03]

There is a new tiering survey to gauge public opinion on which Pokemon should be unbanned from Ubers to OU with the release of the Indigo Disk DLC, please vote!

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-tiering-surveys.3711911/post-9886943

+ + + + + + - Rated all of these as 1 as they are currently just outwardly broken in this meta. Annihilape does Annihilape shit being a bulky Ghost/Fighting type with decent Speed and Rage Fist, Roaring Moon cheeses through things with Booster + Knock Off and its guessing game of pivot sets, Ursaluna-BM is unwallable and hard to take down after it gets going, Firepon brainlessly destroys anything that switches into it and Baxcalibur + SnowVeil and Sneasler + Rillaboom cheese through the tier effortlessly. Urshifu Single Strike’s also damn near unwallable so there’s that.

- Not as outwardly broken as the above, but I still feel it would be unhealthy to drop into OU as we would be putting another powerful Dark-type in the tier that’s also a very fast and powerful Special attacker, in a tier where we already have Valiant. It could also end up making Webs extremely broken. I would also prefer we focus more on handling the overwhelming threats already in OU rather than wasting time by introducing a brand new threat. Voted 1 on this one, don’t see any benefit to dropping it.

+ + + (Rapid Strikes) - Voted 2 on all of these. Arguably less broken than the OU-to-Uber brokens that I put at 1, but still too overwhelming for OU probably. Lando-Incarnate lost all Speed boosting options, but it gained Nasty Plot to make it hit even harder than before. Palafin is funny, but it’s still gonna do the exact same shit it did before and just as well. Same for Urshifu-RS, with the only thing really stopping that this time around being Waterpon (and broken-checks-broken isn’t the best argument for keeping something around).

Zama-C seems like less of a broken on paper with its lack of longevity and value in checking Kingambit being noted as healthy qualities, but Alomomola getting WishTurn from DLC1 means that Zama-C is realistically never going to die and the whole meta just becomes one of two team styles: ZamaMola Bulky Offense and ZamaMola Stall. Keep this thing Uber.

- Voted 4 as having an offensive check to Valiant and Kingambit around is going to be nice and both Manaphy/Waterpon are around to make it less of a problem, but I understand that it might not be the best idea with Tera still allowed.

- DOUBLE DANCE FUCK YEAH that aside, I voted 5 since DLC2 is bringing some stuff that should threaten it a lot more (Serperior, Reuniclus, Suicune) and the meta has adapted more to the presence of Spikes. Should probably become a lot easier to handle if Gholdengo gets banned, too.

 

[yomaalt]

Alright guys new survey dropped time to-
Oh wait, it's for drops this time? Y'know what I feel like seeing how far i can push shit and get people to agree with me..


First and foremost, the guys i don't like (1)

Baby Kyu-b
Spike vomiter
Obnoxious prick
Fentanyl bear
Man.
Where did Rohtul Xel go??

Then, the broken guys but I'm being biased guys who I think should get a second chance!! (2-3)

Matchup moth
Advil Bear
Nyquil Bear
Dog
Girl
Ok I'm
Outta jokes


Ok now for the "Free em they ain't do NOTHING!!" camp, i present to you, the worst lineup physically thought out while having a semblance of metagame knowledge



I will be back in 2 business hours - 6 business days with an oeuvre so incredibly influential, that critics in the unforseeable future will be using said work as a base line for all essays in professional setting. In due to, I shall present you all with a text that explains how reshiram, genesect and solgaleo wouldn't break OU in half. I'm hoping to see as many of you there!~

Huh, I think I'm forgetting someone... was it ? Just keep it banned. Anyways, I'll see you all soon!

 

[the mystery duck]

Voted 1 on everything but Darkrai. Only voted 5 on it so that the community can see in practice that Darkrai is broken and ban it back to ubers within a month at most.