People will be using Ghost tera and Ghost types more often because of shit like Ursaluna, Zamazenta and Urshifu
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter TPP
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Yeah no shot eleki and magearna aren't getting quickbanned fast!
Also welcome to OU zamazenta! (At least to zamazenta hero anyway, because I personally believe it will be the only one to stick around)
Also what are we thinking of enamorus incarnate? Potentially broken or perfectly fine? To me it seems like it could be either of the two as contrary superpower can make this thing absolutely obnoxious for a lot of pokemon to deal with, but certain mixed sets seem wallable I guess...
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Part of me is still thinking that Enamorus-I is potentially broken and I want to break her, but special attacking sets have been oddly performing better than physically attacking sets (and it's the physically attacking sets that use Contrary Superpower), non-speed-boosting sets get easily revenged (thanks Walking Wake and up), and the Choice Scarf set lacks power to overcome its defensive checks that switch in. (This is mostly drawn from my experience in post-HOME roomtours, both using and fighting Enamorus-I.)
Kinda surprised by the results of early home voting tbh, this was one thing that a survey probably could've been put out for.
Espathra - Uber
I don't know why. Espathra started the gen as a UU mon that eventually found its footing as a baton pass-similar sweeper when put behind shed tail and screens. Do I think it'd still be broken cause of tera fighting? Probably. But it would've been nice to see if the shed tail ban did anything to make it more manageable first since shed tail reduced the pressure on espathra to be able to setup on anything and now would fall to status. Its more unlikely to drop it and see than just throw it in the 'we'll quick ban anyways' pool.
Zama - OU
This is going to be a huge mistake, I genuinely don't get the rational behind it. Zama easily can run tera sets to get over its weaknesses and with that speed tier nothing revenge kills it without being killed first or the scarfers/dragapults that do aren't strong enough to one shot it while being frail enough to be one shot back. I can see Zama fairy or Zama normal even being problematic, while zama poison just cheeses iron valiant who might be strong enough to kill it but dies quickly.
252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tera Poison Zamazenta: 97-115 (29.8 - 35.3%) -- 25.9% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Poison Zamazenta Psychic Fangs vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Iron Valiant: 286-338 (98.9 - 116.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
It was outvoted as a keep banned last gen cause of the sheer amount of stats it has, and now it has the option to boost one of its moves/negate its mono typing, and lol revival blessing.
Just surprises me that using the 'we'll quick ban it anyways lets just experiment now' worked for zama and not espathra.
Espathra - Uber
I don't know why. Espathra started the gen as a UU mon that eventually found its footing as a baton pass-similar sweeper when put behind shed tail and screens. Do I think it'd still be broken cause of tera fighting? Probably. But it would've been nice to see if the shed tail ban did anything to make it more manageable first since shed tail reduced the pressure on espathra to be able to setup on anything and now would fall to status. Its more unlikely to drop it and see than just throw it in the 'we'll quick ban anyways' pool.
Zama - OU
This is going to be a huge mistake, I genuinely don't get the rational behind it. Zama easily can run tera sets to get over its weaknesses and with that speed tier nothing revenge kills it without being killed first or the scarfers/dragapults that do aren't strong enough to one shot it while being frail enough to be one shot back. I can see Zama fairy or Zama normal even being problematic, while zama poison just cheeses iron valiant who might be strong enough to kill it but dies quickly.
252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tera Poison Zamazenta: 97-115 (29.8 - 35.3%) -- 25.9% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Poison Zamazenta Psychic Fangs vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Iron Valiant: 286-338 (98.9 - 116.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
It was outvoted as a keep banned last gen cause of the sheer amount of stats it has, and now it has the option to boost one of its moves/negate its mono typing, and lol revival blessing.
Just surprises me that using the 'we'll quick ban it anyways lets just experiment now' worked for zama and not espathra.
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Any trying to run Calm Mind have to cope with Cute Charm, which has the side effect of making it low-key optimal to have mostly female pokemon if you can choose (other genies being one such exception).
Superpower contrary is better as a side set, it has a lot of problems such as only slightly above average speed meaning it needs investment, SP not being stab, and lacking great physical moves to pair with it (90 accuracy play rough can screw you over). I can see choice special attackers being interesting with coverage like Earth Power, that's probably where it's potential lies.
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So how do you stop this core? Both are using choice band.
Zamazenta may be a 4mss pokemon but even then is doing significant damage. Close Combat is just a braindead option agaisnt offense, usually those that do threaten zamazenta either get outsped or can't 2hko (iron moth or dragonite for example). It becomes worse when you factor in zamazenta's speed and coverage options. Crunch, psychic fangs and wild charge hit almost every mon that zamazenta wants to hit, and still has more options with iron head, ice fang, play rough and stone edge, those last two are a bit more niche however.
There are some options defensively, amoongus and toxapex seem to be the main ones who can take one hit from psychic fangs and deal some damage back, or in the case of amoongus, spore, then use regenerator to recover some hp while switching in to something that can take a hit. Dondozo is somewhat shaky thanks to the fact that close combat does at least 35%, but it could work.
And then there's chien pao. Has even scarier attacks thanks to Sword of Ruin and its dreaded tera dark crunch will be threatening a ko on almost anything zamazenta doesn't with close combat. Not much has to be said about tera dark crunch since it was a scary presence that was a factor in getting it banned earlier from the tier.
Some mons that come close to stopping the core:
maybe you can predict some stuff from zamazenta and threaten burns but tera fairy can't do much about iron head from zamazenta, also probably fits more on bulky teams who arent doing very well against this core anyways.
can use zamazenta as an opportunity for setup but non bulky variants are still getting 2hko'd by close combat assuming there's no burn
threatens a ko on both and can easily switch into chien pao, not so much on zamazenta since it's a high chance of a 2hko with close combat. 
booster energy on speed can actually deal with both, keep in mind at +0 moonblast doesn't ko zamazenta, while zamazenta can 2hko with close combat, so it can't really switch in safely.252 SpA Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta: 260-308 (80 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
takes hits decently well from both, except for wild charge from zamazenta, not sure how great it will be against the rest of ou lol.
I actually thought Hero was more threatening, with life orb Close Combat, Ice Fang, and crunch to hit most mons super effectively at scary speeds.
there's nothing odd about this; special Enamorus simply has much better attacking moves like Moonblast, Psychic, Mystical Fire, & Earth Power while physical Enamorus has woeful options like "Play Rough" and "Zen Headbutt". Enamorus is also looking to just be a sidegrade to the already amazing Iron Valiant, who has a Stealth Rock resistance, better speed tier, and Booster Energy access to contend against Enamorus's better power, 3-move coverage, and Agility.
It's worth noting that Chien's crunch can easily make switching into it with Mag a gamble if it gets a defense drop. If that happens you can kind of kiss your Chien check goodbye unless you run super bulky Mag.
So how do you stop this core? Both are using choice band.
Zamazenta may be a 4mss pokemon but even then is doing significant damage. Close Combat is just a braindead option agaisnt offense, usually those that do threaten zamazenta either get outsped or can't 2hko (iron moth or dragonite for example). It becomes worse when you factor in zamazenta's speed and coverage options. Crunch, psychic fangs and wild charge hit almost every mon that zamazenta wants to hit, and still has more options with iron head, ice fang, play rough and stone edge, those last two are a bit more niche however.
There are some options defensively, amoongus and toxapex seem to be the main ones who can take one hit from psychic fangs and deal some damage back, or in the case of amoongus, spore, then use regenerator to recover some hp while switching in to something that can take a hit. Dondozo is somewhat shaky thanks to the fact that close combat does at least 35%, but it could work.
And then there's chien pao. Has even scarier attacks thanks to Sword of Ruin and its dreaded tera dark crunch will be threatening a ko on almost anything zamazenta doesn't with close combat. Not much has to be said about tera dark crunch since it was a scary presence that was a factor in getting it banned earlier from the tier.
Some mons that come close to stopping the core:
ITS TIME FOR FLUFFY HOUNDSTONE PROPAGANDA AGAINjk there's no hope for this guy, the best it was going to do in ou was *maybe* have a c- tier niche as a spinblocker. not happening after the chien pao unban, down to uu you go
252 SpA Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta: 260-308 (80 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
luckie
unluckiest player
iirc, while it was a potent abuser of Shed Tail, another large part of why it was quickbanned was because of how snowbally it could be with Tera, as if it had a Tera that you just couldn't deal with out of the options it could Tera into, you kinda just got flattened.
If Tera were to get looked at again and Team Preview came out on top, or even banned, it would 99% come back down to OU.
No clue. It only got buffed this gen.
Only thing I could muster is that it now has checks in Urshifu-R and Zama itself.
Both forms got major nerfs, with -10 Atk in both, -5 in Def/SpD for Crowned, and Dauntless Shield now being a sucky sucky ability. The only buff they got was Body Press, Stone Edge, and Trailblaze. Body Press doing less damage than Close Combat unless you invest into it, which case your physical attacks suffer, Stone Edge being a risky alternate option for beating Flying types, and Trailblaze being mediocre since it’s already pretty fast.
A bigger part is its Fighting type competition. It has to compete with Great Tusk, and Iron Valiant, and also Sneasler and Urshifu-R before they get banned eventually.
The thing with Espartha is how it eats defensive teams unless they run something like tera dark unaware mons. It was UU at first because the meta was too HO oriented so it really never got chances to set up, but once busted stuff got banned and more defensive teams started to be viable was when the bird became problematic since with either shed tail or runnning sub itself it can beat not tera dark defensive teams. A tera ban would make it match up against offense better, but I can see the vs defensive teams match ups better since they could lose the best answer against it.
BEHOLD! THE ANSWER TO YOUR PROBLEMS
So how do you stop this core? Both are using choice band.
Zamazenta may be a 4mss pokemon but even then is doing significant damage. Close Combat is just a braindead option agaisnt offense, usually those that do threaten zamazenta either get outsped or can't 2hko (iron moth or dragonite for example). It becomes worse when you factor in zamazenta's speed and coverage options. Crunch, psychic fangs and wild charge hit almost every mon that zamazenta wants to hit, and still has more options with iron head, ice fang, play rough and stone edge, those last two are a bit more niche however.
There are some options defensively, amoongus and toxapex seem to be the main ones who can take one hit from psychic fangs and deal some damage back, or in the case of amoongus, spore, then use regenerator to recover some hp while switching in to something that can take a hit. Dondozo is somewhat shaky thanks to the fact that close combat does at least 35%, but it could work.
And then there's chien pao. Has even scarier attacks thanks to Sword of Ruin and its dreaded tera dark crunch will be threatening a ko on almost anything zamazenta doesn't with close combat. Not much has to be said about tera dark crunch since it was a scary presence that was a factor in getting it banned earlier from the tier.
Some mons that come close to stopping the core:
ITS TIME FOR FLUFFY HOUNDSTONE PROPAGANDA AGAINjk there's no hope for this guy, the best it was going to do in ou was *maybe* have a c- tier niche as a spinblocker. not happening after the chien pao unban, down to uu you go
252 SpA Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta: 260-308 (80 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Avalugg-Hisui @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Recover
- Stealth Rock
- Mountain Gale
- Body Press
you may see a mon walled by Gholdengo that waste your tera but no I say, I see a mon that handles zama/chien pao/ursaluna/offensive tusk.
bonus points for pulling an uno reverse on trick room and using mountain gale to flinch people to death to calm your rage after chien pao does the same to you with icicle crash
Just one question, is Zama-C even gonna be obtainable? IIRC, there's no way of obtaining the Rusted Shield in game and items don't get transferred thru HOME.
You can (at least apparently) get every legendary- and mythical-specific item in-game by being patient at auctions and spending hundreds of thousands of Pokedollars getting that Reins of Unity/etc. once you have the relevant legendary/mythical in your party.
This was found in the data and tested if I'm correct. Folks hacked in Zamazenta (and others too like Palkia, Dialga, etc.), and then eventually the auctions at Porto Marinada will offer those Pokemon-specific items. I don't know if it has to be in your party or in your box, but the game knows what to do and the items are attainable.
EDIT: Ninjask'd
There's a dedicated stall for the items, so you're guaranteed to see at least 1 every in game day for the relevant legendaries/mythicals in your boxes. Rotom's catalogue was the only item that required this prior to home
I suggest either getting Arceus' 17 plates out of the way first or saving it for later, otherwise they'll be all you get
I suggest either getting Arceus' 17 plates out of the way first or saving it for later, otherwise they'll be all you get
I'm thinking legend plate is gonna be a dlc item, since it has new artwork in game. And If so ubers is in for some pain at some point this gen.
Also PSA, you can evolve you kubfu in paldea through the scrolls at the porto marinada auctions. So now you can have urshifu rs on cart if you wanted to make an ou team on cart.
I would argue that the only truly viable Espathra sets (Speed Boost/CM/Stored Power) are fundamentally uncompetitive. They don't benefit you for positioning well, they penalize your opponent for not positioning perfectly, especially with Tera providing a big unknown in terms of counters. Having to run it's own sub instead of getting shed tail support makes it marginally more manageable, but it can snowball behind screens just as easily. Hell, you can just lead it against certain team structures, click sub on turn one, and simply lolololol all the way to the bank. Playing with Espathra is barely playing Pokemon, it's just trolling.
Zama is more likely getting banned than Sneasler is, and I don't think either are being banned in the short term.
No clue. It only got buffed this gen.
Only thing I could muster is that it now has checks in Urshifu-R and Zama itself.
Both forms got major nerfs, with -10 Atk in both, -5 in Def/SpD for Crowned, and Dauntless Shield now being a sucky sucky ability. The only buff they got was Body Press, Stone Edge, and Trailblaze. Body Press doing less damage than Close Combat unless you invest into it, which case your physical attacks suffer, Stone Edge being a risky alternate option for beating Flying types, and Trailblaze being mediocre since it’s already pretty fast.
A bigger part is its Fighting type competition. It has to compete with Great Tusk, and Iron Valiant, and also Sneasler and Urshifu-R before they get banned eventually.
On top of this, it feels like the only major source of counterplay against it is Prankster Taunt -- which dies if they're Tera Dark. Dirge can barely handle it most times, Clod just dies to the damn thing if you don't have Tera in your pocket still or Clod's Tera can't answer it/Espathra's Tera beats it. Bozo has zero chance, and Quag has zero chance. Espathra just has no real counterplay that's 100% reliable.
zReptar
formerly LT83AQ Lou
Zama will not run cb much imo because Id bp is hard to pass up
So how do you stop this core? Both are using choice band.
Zamazenta may be a 4mss pokemon but even then is doing significant damage. Close Combat is just a braindead option agaisnt offense, usually those that do threaten zamazenta either get outsped or can't 2hko (iron moth or dragonite for example). It becomes worse when you factor in zamazenta's speed and coverage options. Crunch, psychic fangs and wild charge hit almost every mon that zamazenta wants to hit, and still has more options with iron head, ice fang, play rough and stone edge, those last two are a bit more niche however.
There are some options defensively, amoongus and toxapex seem to be the main ones who can take one hit from psychic fangs and deal some damage back, or in the case of amoongus, spore, then use regenerator to recover some hp while switching in to something that can take a hit. Dondozo is somewhat shaky thanks to the fact that close combat does at least 35%, but it could work.
And then there's chien pao. Has even scarier attacks thanks to Sword of Ruin and its dreaded tera dark crunch will be threatening a ko on almost anything zamazenta doesn't with close combat. Not much has to be said about tera dark crunch since it was a scary presence that was a factor in getting it banned earlier from the tier.
Some mons that come close to stopping the core:
ITS TIME FOR FLUFFY HOUNDSTONE PROPAGANDA AGAINjk there's no hope for this guy, the best it was going to do in ou was *maybe* have a c- tier niche as a spinblocker. not happening after the chien pao unban, down to uu you go
252 SpA Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta: 260-308 (80 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
What is FlamingVictin's problem? He abstained from half the votes and then votes OU for the ones he does put his input (excluding Last Respects. No one is that crazy). Is he some sort of agent of chaos? Does he want to watch the world burn?
Anyways, this meta sure is going to be interesting. I predict that Zama-C is still gonna end up banned eventually once people realize that they can fully invest into Special Defense as it'll simply spam Iron Defense+Body Press and go Tera-Dark Crunch for most Ghosts that try to wall it. Of course it's beatable, but its mere presence in the tier is gonna stronghold a lot of teams like it did in Gen 8.
Anyways, this meta sure is going to be interesting. I predict that Zama-C is still gonna end up banned eventually once people realize that they can fully invest into Special Defense as it'll simply spam Iron Defense+Body Press and go Tera-Dark Crunch for most Ghosts that try to wall it. Of course it's beatable, but its mere presence in the tier is gonna stronghold a lot of teams like it did in Gen 8.
If it wasn’t for Dire Claw, I would agree. Dire Claw is an unholy abomination of a move and Sneasler is only user of the move.
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