CAP 8 CAP 8 - Part 5a - Ability Discussion

[hydrolphin]

Some recent posts have had some really bad reasoning imo. People seem to be naming abilities just for the sake of naming them. Want some examples?

@IRON FISH:

Bullet Punch, Comet Punch, Dizzy Punch, Drain Punch, Dynamic Punch, Fire Punch, Mach Punch, Mega Punch, Meteor Mash, Sky Uppercut, Ice Punch, Focus Punch, Hammer Arm, and Thunder Punch.

Most of what you listed is worthless. Comet Punch, Dizzy Punch, Mega Punch and Sky Uppercut are all terrible. Mach Punch, Bullet Punch and Meteor Mash are worthless w/o STAB. The elemental punchs bar TPunch offer no new covereage, and are therefore worthless, Dynamic Punch is also worthless without No Guard, and Hammer Arm offers no new coverage. That leaves TPunch and Focus Punch for moves with some usage. TPunch with the Iron Fist boost still has less BP than TBolt, so unless by some miracle a physical bias is chosen, its worthless. So that would leave us with a SubPunch set. But with STABs like Outrage and Draco Meteor, you have plenty of high powered options.

@ROUGH SKIN:

I think Rough Skin would be an exalt ability to help stall out Physical Attackers. The CaP could have good special defence so you would ether do little damage with Special Atteker or lose HP wile attaking with a Physical Attaker.

Again, like Mag i think said, if I can kill you in one hit, Rough Skin will not deter me. It may help you in stall wars, against wall that use physical attacks, but many of them carry EQ, which is non contact AND does plenty of damage.

I think Rough Skin will be good for a moderatley bulky pokemon, since he will be able to spam recovery moves in-front of physical attackers and stall them off...
It will be great with Toxic Spikes support. what do you think?

This would be great... if EQ was a contact move. Your recovery may stall them, but that doesn't make you stand out from say a Skarm, who can do the same thing.

@COMPOUNDEYES:

I'm starting to like Compoundeyes for a couple of reasons. Well they're all the same reason really, but for three moves in particular: Dragon Rush, Thunder, and Glare. I'm most excited about CE for Glare, which would have 97% accuracy and causes Paralysis regardless of whether the target is a Ground Pokemon.

Dragon Rush isn't impressive if we have a special attacker. Even if it goes mixed, Outrage is almost always the better option, unless CAP8 has Serene Grace... which it doesn't because it already would have Compoundeyes. Glare can paralyze Ground types... who are normally slow anyway and can kill you with EQ. Thunder is great and all... but it isn't impressive enough to give this guy Compoundeyes.

@THICK FAT:

I was going to write that, but DK did it before. i see only one problem:

No Thick Fat, as any 2 of this 3 abilities can make a really great combo, since you make make easier switch-ins or make your opponent think twice before using an ice move/air slash/a physical move.

No one will think twice about using an Ice Move. It offers neutral coverage, which is still good, considering all the resistances this guy has. People make this neutrality seem like an immunity. Ice is the LEAST worrisome of our weaknesses, so why devote the ability to it.

@SHIELD DUST HATERS

The main problem with Shield Dust is that secondary effects aren't often used against defensive pokes. If someone intends to cripple you, they are going to use a direct status inducer like T-Wave and WoW. Since Elec/Dragon resists things like fire blast and thunderbolt, its unlikely you are going to be in many situations where you need to worry about secondary effects.

The only real common exception to this is obviously paraflinchers like Togekiss and Jirachi. But do we really need this pokemon to be a check for those two? If so, vote shield dust. Also the stat spread is going to matter here. If this pokemon isn't ver physically bulky, switching into a Jirachi spamming Iron Head probably isn't going to be a great idea anyway, you'll take more damage than Jirachi is worth, there are plenty of better counters out there right now who resist steel.

Hypothetical situation here: You switch CAP8 into a T-Bolt, as you 4x resist it. You feel happy with yourself, but then wait... you've been parahaxed! Oh noes! Now you wish you had Shield Dust. Same thing with Fire Blast. An untimely burn can really screw things up for you. Being able to take on Heatran 1 on 1 is much more difficult when burned. And even if you do win, can you survive the onslaught of future attacks? T-wave and WoW have nothing to do with the fact that random hax hurts.

As for flinches, do you not relize that by resisting the common flinch attacks, you are actually better off countering them with Shield Dust? Lets look at a few situations.

You switch into Jirachi with a Shield Dust-less CAP8. Jirachi outspeeds you and uses Iron Head. You flinch. And it happen again. Lets ay Iron Head is a 5HKO while T-Bolt is a 2HKO. If Jirachi outspeeds you, it has a roughly 60% of beating, barring Crits. With shield dust it has a 0% of beating you, if you play right. Great help that resist was... WRONG.

Shield Dust is a great asset to CAP8. The fact that it resists commonly Haxy moves has nothing to do with that. In fact, it helps PROVE my point. If CAP8 was Rock/Ice than shield dust would be useless against iron head.

 

[dorkknight23]

Agreed, Gluttony or Unburden might be a really useful and underappreciated ability. Gluttony especially would be useful, since the two pokémon who have it (Shuckle and Linoon) can't utilize some of the interesting uses (an easy Salac+Belly Drum, for example.)

 

[Onii]

Unfortunately, with the way the build bias poll is heading, belly drum wouldn't fit very well on this poke.

 

[Gooey Kablooie]

@ Hydrolphin: I see where you were going with that, but lets make one thing crystal clear about my iron fist post. I clearly stated that it would be an interesting Secondary choice. I listed names just to make sure people understood it, and the only examples I gave were with Focus Punch and Thunder Punch anyways, how many more would you need? an example set would be those two + Substitute and the dragon move of choice. I do support shield dust somewhat, but for the sake of people trying to make up their mind on choosing an ability please don't try to put down everything based on loose opinions and then support your own with a "hypothetical situation".

 

[Run]

Hypothetical situation here: You switch CAP8 into a T-Bolt, as you 4x resist it. You feel happy with yourself, but then wait... you've been parahaxed! Oh noes! Now you wish you had Shield Dust. Same thing with Fire Blast. An untimely burn can really screw things up for you. Being able to take on Heatran 1 on 1 is much more difficult when burned. And even if you do win, can you survive the onslaught of future attacks? T-wave and WoW have nothing to do with the fact that random hax hurts.

As for flinches, do you not relize that by resisting the common flinch attacks, you are actually better off countering them with Shield Dust? Lets look at a few situations.

You switch into Jirachi with a Shield Dust-less CAP8. Jirachi outspeeds you and uses Iron Head. You flinch. And it happen again. Lets ay Iron Head is a 5HKO while T-Bolt is a 2HKO. If Jirachi outspeeds you, it has a roughly 60% of beating, barring Crits. With shield dust it has a 0% of beating you, if you play right. Great help that resist was... WRONG.

Shield Dust is a great asset to CAP8. The fact that it resists commonly Haxy moves has nothing to do with that. In fact, it helps PROVE my point. If CAP8 was Rock/Ice than shield dust would be useless against iron head.

60% is way off. Jirachi needs 3 flinches in the first 4 moves to win the matchup which is only a 34.5% chance. Assuming you switch in on the first hit: 2 flinches in 3 moves is a much better 43.2% chance, but still a losing probability. Throw Static into the mix and you have to avoid paralysis for at least the first 3 moves, having a probability of .3087 (30.87% chance), giving Jirachis probability of winning the matchup in a BEST CASE SCENARIO a 13.34% chance. And this is all assuming CAP8 doesn't run any form of recovery move.

Are you really worried about the 10% chance of extra effects on NVE hits on the switch in? How often do you REALLY get screwed by random Fire Blast burns on pokemon that switch in to wall the Pokemon? If nothing else, assume that you will switch in on a move that can trigger static at least as often as you switch in on a move with an extra effect and the chance to paralyze easily makes up for the chance of getting hit with the additional effect. Static is significantly more practical and will be effective significantly more often.

What it comes down to is: can you get screwed by a random burn? yes. But there will be many many more times you screw them over instead running Static than Shield Dust.

Edit: Math.

 

[Xellos]

Unfortuantley, I can't say that any of these abilites jump out at me. Here's what I do see though:

Airlock/Cloud nine:This ability temporarily shuts down the effects of weather. This would allow the pokemon to fulfill a specifc role and be useful in a variety of situations (you could even include it in a sandstorm or hail team I suppose).

Aftermath/Roughskin: Neither of these seems to be a strong basis to build a pokemon on and their use is rather narrow.

Anticipaion: This could help confirm what moveset an opponent is running, but many sets share common moves...

Color change: I can't see any point to giving up an intersting dual type for a mono type that the opponent can then easily pick off.

Compond eyes: This ability would lean primarily towards using powerful moves to sweep. As far as I'm concerned we have plenty of examples of good sweepers, many with much greater offensive potential to back them up. Syclant also has, and is a great example of this ability already.

Damp: This ability has too narrow of a usage.

Early bird: Another one that seems pretty narrow. It's not like sleep is that common either.

Effect spore/Poison point/Static: All of these are reactive ablities that rely on your oppoent to behave in a specific way in order for their effect to activate. Effect spore gives a chance of sleep,poison, or paralisys. Poison point inflicts normal poison status, and lastly static inflicts paralysis. Sure I suppose you could use taunt to force your opponent to attack, but then the move they choose may not be a contact move. Even if it is there is still only a 30% chance the effect will activate. In regards to static specifically: you could gamble on the chance that static will paralyze your opponent, but why would you? I'd rather just thunderwave my opponent and be done with it, goal accomplished.

Flower gift/Leaf guard/Clorophyll/Solarpower: I don't see many situations where this pokemon would be in a position to take advantage of the sunlight. These skills would be much better suited to a grass or fire type.

Marvel scale: This could be used to absorb status and take a defensive boost. It is notable that this can be used with rest, although most times i don't think it would be worth it.

Shield dust: This would have some use as stopping additonal effects is always good. This doesn't stop the additonal effects of move that affect your opponet's pokemon (IE meteor mash's attack boost). Most additional effects only have a small chance of the effect going off though, and only a certain percentage of moves have additonal effects.

Sound proof: This ability will only stop a few select moves as many of them are uncommon.

Suction cups: Prevents this pokemon from being switchted. Could stop teams that do alot of shuffling in order to damage you or could be used as the last chain in baton pass. Seems pretty narrow.

Syncronize: Could be used to absorb status and inflict the opponet with said status and then heal bell, refresh, or rest it off?

Thick fat: Our CAP gains 4x fire resist and Ice does normal damage. Snorlax is also already a great example of this ability.

Trace: Copying an opponents ability is fun, allthough I'm unsure of exactly how useful this would be most of the time.

Iron fist/ Mold breaker/Skill Link/Reckless: These would all be much more suited to a physically oriented pokemon.

Hustle I don't like gaining power to loose accuracy.

Quick feet/Tangled feet/Unburden All seem kind of gimicky.

 

[petrie911]

I'd like to put in for Forewarn. When is learning your foe's strongest move ever not useful? I suppose it's hard to build a Pokemon off of, but could at least go in the secondary slot.

Also, hydrolphin...

Dragon Rush isn't impressive if we have a special attacker. Even if it goes mixed, Outrage is almost always the better option, unless CAP8 has Serene Grace... which it doesn't because it already would have Compoundeyes. Glare can paralyze Ground types... who are normally slow anyway and can kill you with EQ. Thunder is great and all... but it isn't impressive enough to give this guy Compoundeyes.

Glare can also paralyze Electivire and Jolteon, the latter of which you will definitely want to come in on and definitely does not like paralysis. And even slow ground types don't like parahax. 91% STAB Thunder is great, and 100% STAB Draco Meteor, 100% Fire Blast, 91% Blizzard, 100% Hydro Pump, 97% WoW, 100% Toxic, and 91% Focus Blast are certainly impressive enough to warrant Compoundeyes.

Don't sell Compoundeyes short. It's a great ability. The bigger problem with it is that Syclant seems to already have it.

 

[Darkflagrance]

Early bird: Another one that seems pretty narrow. It's not like sleep is that common either.

The real point for Early Bird is the one turn rest. For that reason alone, Early Bird as an ability trumps Shield Dust, because for a slightly larger investment you get in exchange for one turn of immobility immunity to status and constant hp regeneration. First of all, paralysis becomes moot in the face of rest. Second of all, all it takes is one missed flinch for you to be back at full health, and ready to kick tail again in one turn. I don't understand why people support Shield Dust when Early Bird is a superior ability.

Also, I do agree with Xellos that most of the abilities being touted either already have an OU user (Thick Fat!!!) or are very narrow in their scope and not worth structuing a CAP around.

Regarding Suction Cups, we could have the ability to make a pretty awesome sweeper if we grant this to CAP8 along with Dragon Dance. Furthermore, to do this would structure CAP8 significantly around its ability, as opposed to many others that only have narrow benefit, as Xellos notes.

Also supporting Forewarn because it does something significant. Frankly, it is an effect that could have a strong effect on the metagame were it to be introduced to it.

 

[VKCA]

Agreed, Gluttony or Unburden might be a really useful and underappreciated ability. Gluttony especially would be useful, since the two pokémon who have it (Shuckle and Linoon) can't utilize some of the interesting uses (an easy Salac+Belly Drum, for example.)

Are you kidding? belly drum salac is all linoone ever uses.

 

[Penguino]

I find that shield dust is next to worthless. With static, you are relying on a 30% chance that the opponent will be paralyzed, which isn't that good. By using shield dust, you are more or less relying on the chance that you will be hit by one of those secondary effects, which is usually less than 30%. Although static is more about "offensive" support and shield dust is more about prevention, they both rely on luck. And I know that static only activates on contact moves, and jirachi has a 60% chance with the iron head that we hate so much, but it doesn't make shield dust much better than static. And they both still suck. Shield dust has little to no offensive application, and this isn't a wall we're building here.

I still support compoundeyes. Compoundeyes with thunder is very dangerous, compoundeyes with dragon rush makes it better than outrage (IMO, at least. I personally think that the drop in power is worth the lack of a lock and the flinch possiblity), and compoundeyes with glare makes it better than thunder wave. And hydrolphin seems to think that glare has no application on ground types. Say you switch in CAP8 on a zapdos say. Zapdos can't do anything on CAP8, and switches because of it. If they switch into a ground type then BAM glare. And, if they don't switch, then glare will still paralyze that helpless electric type. Glare gives CAP8 a huge advantage over electric types.

I also still like unburden. Here's a possible application for unburden (and yes I know CAP8 might not have these moves and it's probably going to be more specially based):

CAP8 switches in on zapdos. Hit with an attack that does very little damage.

Zapdos switches out, swampert comes in. CAP8 uses substitute.

Swampert uses EQ, breaks sub. CAP8 uses dragon dance, making it faster (assuming it wasn't in the first place).

CAP8 uses sub, swampert breaks it.

CAP8 uses sub (which activates petaya berry and unburden).

CAP8 now has +2 attack, +2 speed, and the potential to sweep.


I know this is hypothetical, but this actually is a relatively common scenario, albeit with different pokemon.

 

[macle]

Shield dust has offensive applications. You don't have to be afraid of switching into move and possibly getting paralyzed or burned which could prevent it from sweeping.

 

[pkmn-taicho321]

Unfortunately, with the way the build bias poll is heading, belly drum wouldn't fit very well on this poke.

Actually as long as his Atk Stat is half way decent belly drum would be a fine idea. +6 on a 75 Atk Stat is still beastly mixed with the possiblity of Out Rage and Volt Tackle. In fact it's probably more likely to make into CAP8's movepool is he has a sub-par attack stat.

On topic I support Sheild Dust and Cloud Nine/ Air Lock. Shield Dust is a helpful tool in away situation, doing a good job at keeping luck from undoing this bulky dragon.

Cloud Nine allows CAP8 Leftovers recovery in any situation, which is a big part of many tankish/ bulky Pokemon. It also gives it some chance of dealing with Tyranitar.

 

[zarator]

DJD already explained why Thick Fat should be out of question. Also, Compoundeyes should be excluded pretty much for the same reason (a lot of the new people seem to forget that this is not the first CAP - there are 7 other CAPs we have created. Look at them before coming here please)

As I already said a lot of times, I'm completely against Static. Jagged Angel already covered that, but I will reiterate. Static is completely unreliable. You cannot even compare it to attacks such as Discharge, Lava Plume or Air Slash. Those attacks, even when the effect does not trigger, still do a good amount of damage (Lava Plume and Discharge are on the same level of Shadow Ball and Dark Pulse, Air Slash is just a tad behind - these are not low BPs at all, when backed up by STAB). Static is a lot more similar to Horn Drill and Sheer Cold. If the 30% chance triggers, they work. Otherwise, they don't do a shit. How many of you would - for example - rely on a OHKO move? And at least, if the 30% chance triggers, you have taken out something. Static, even when it works, does not take out something with it, and you still have taken damage. Hell, if you want to paralyze things, go with Discharge and Thunderwave. I'd use them even if I had Static.

Shield Dustis pretty good. More than half OU resort to at least an attack with a side-effect, so as you can see this ability is not commonly useless. Especially against offensive teams, the "side-effect" attacks are much more common that the "non-side-effect" ones.

But what I'd like to support is Forewarn. There are a ton of OU Pokémon you can switch into, and a lot of them will give out you some good information through Forewarn. Definitely a good ability for a tank to have.

 

[Anima]

Static has to be a requisite on a somewhat defensiv electric Pokemon. Primarily when its physical defense is high. Even with a moderate physical defense and a higher special defense it would work, because the enemy has to use physical attacks to beat it.

Cloud Nine as second ability would sound fine, if the Pokemon has any clouds on its body. This makes it to a wonderful Rain Dance counter.

Rough Skin would make sense, too. Especially if it has a needle like body like Jolteon. This ability works on a somewhat defensiv Pokemon. But only when it has a high special defense, so that the enemy has to use physical attacks.

 

[zarator]

Static has to be a requisite on a somewhat defensiv electric Pokemon. Primarily when its physical defense is high. Even with a moderate physical defense and a higher special defense it would work, because the enemy has to use physical attacks to beat it.

"has to use ohysical attacks"? At best they will have to use Earthquake, and Earthquake does not trigger Static

Cloud Nine as second ability would sound fine, if the Pokemon has any clouds on its body. This makes it to a wonderful Rain Dance counter.

Veedrock already covered this. Sunny Day and Rain Dance teams have already their issues. They dont need to be addressed. And please, PLEASE, stop bitching with flavour. Does Golduck have Clouds on its body?

Rough Skin would make sense, too. Especially if it has a needle like body like Jolteon. This ability works on a somewhat defensiv Pokemon. But only when it has a high special defense, so that the enemy has to use physical attacks.

1) Stop bringing up flavour. So far, think at CAP8 as a question mark with a typing and a specific stat bias
2) You need higher physical defense than special, if you wish to use Rough skin. Otherwise you will not be able to switch into them

 

[Gooey Kablooie]

@ Zarator: I agree with you on the choice of forwarn actually, it's tough for me to decide between that and rough skin. Although your argument with rough skin saying you also need defense to switch in and take the hits is true...we already know we'll have good defense since that is what we voted for.

 

[pkmn-taicho321]

I really don't think Forewarn is worth it when we already have a pokemon that was made to be "The Ultimate Scout". Certainly this thing can have moves that allow is to scout info, but should we be giving it an ability that suggests that thats it's role as a CAP? I take issue with rough skin as well. A good portion of the moves that CAP8 is weak to aren't commonly contact moves, so unless it's designed to constantly switch in, it won't really be able to utilize it. Ice Beam, Dragon Pulse, Draco Meteor, Earthquake, Earth Power all moves that are quite common that aren't contact moves. Even if we gave it defenses to rival shuckle, boosting moves put a strain on CAP8. I'd change my mind if there was a special Curse, but for now I really don't see the merit in Rough Skin.

Edit: I completely forgot about possiblity of CAP8 Getting Calm Mind. Even with that in mind I don't care much for Rough Skin.

 

[petrie911]

I think I'll also support Shield Dust. With Fire and Electric resists, it'll be switching into those attacks a lot, and would especially like to switch in on the weaker Discharge and Lava Plume. Getting burned or paralyzed sucks (well, unless you have Marvel Scale), as -12% per turn is never good, and full para is quite possibly the single most annoying thing in the game. Additionally, as mentioned, it prevents Jirachi from flinchhaxing you to death, which has a very non-negligible chance of happening.

Other secondary effects that you will never incur include the special defense drop of Shadow Ball, Flash Cannon, Focus Blast, or Seed Flare (the last being important if Shaymin-S comes down from Ubers). You will never be frozen by Ice Beam. You will never flinch from Gyarados' Waterfall or Ice Fang (important on versions that lack EQ). Crunch will never lower your defense. Dynamicpunch will never confuse. Fake Out will never flinch. There are a lot of moves whose secondary effects can really screw you over. Shield dust allows you to never be affected by them.

Lastly, for those of you talking about flavor, keep in mind that we can rename the ability to whatever we want, as the name is not important compared the the effect. For example, if we decided Shield Dust was inappropriate for an Electric/Dragon, we could simply rename it Interference or something.

As for Forewarn, it's certainly a worthy secondary ability. It never hurts, and it can tell you a lot about your opponent.

 

[dorkknight23]

Are you kidding? belly drum salac is all linoone ever uses.

Sorry about that, I meant in OU. Don't see many Linoone running around there.

 

[SMZ]

Cloud Nine(or Air Lock) helps it not get damaged by Hail/Sandstorm, and also bypasses the SpD boost gained by rock-types in SS. It also helps against Swift Swimmers (mainly Kingdra, who'd otherwise out speed and OHKO).

Shield Dust makes it not worry about flinch hax, stat drops and moves with high status rate (Discharge, Lava Plume and Body Slam).

 

[Fuzznip]

Why Cloud Nine and Air Lock? It's not gonna help this CAP in any way except for Leftovers recovery. Tyranitar would give this CAP trouble either way, resisting both of this CAPs STAB and can then just kill it with Earthquake. I don't think it's really necessary.

Shield Dust is probably the best one so far, aside from Static.

 

[Gooey Kablooie]

Why Cloud Nine and Air Lock? It's not gonna help this CAP in any way except for Leftovers recovery. Tyranitar would give this CAP trouble either way, resisting both of this CAPs STAB and can then just kill it with Earthquake. I don't think it's really necessary.

Shield Dust is probably the best one so far, aside from Static.

Tyranitar does not resist either of this CaPs STABs.

 

[Fuzznip]

Tyranitar does not resist either of this CaPs STABs.

Tyranitar shrugs off Thunderbolt and Dragon Pulse. It's not gonna do much since this CAP will have low attacking stats. But, I don't mind taking this back if there's something better that Air Lock can do besides gaining Leftovers in weather and negating weather-related abilities.

 

[Gooey Kablooie]

Tyranitar shrugs off Thunderbolt and Dragon Pulse. It's not gonna do much since this CAP will have low attacking stats. But, I don't mind taking this back if there's something better that Air Lock can do besides gaining Leftovers in weather and negating weather-related abilities.

I'm not saying I support Air Lock or Cloud Nine, in fact it's the complete opposite I don't think they should be used either. I'm just saying Tyranitar does not resist electric nor does it resist dragon. The term "resist" and "shrug off" are totally different, that's all I was pointing out.

Edit: Also, we don't know if this CaP will have low attacking stats, all we know is it will lean slightly more to the defensive, that does not mean low attack.

 

[MystErikEry]

Tyranitar shrugs off Thunderbolt and Dragon Pulse. It's not gonna do much since this CAP will have low attacking stats. But, I don't mind taking this back if there's something better that Air Lock can do besides gaining Leftovers in weather and negating weather-related abilities.

Part of the reason he shrugs them off is because in a sandstorm, Rock-type Special Defense is boosted. Cloud Nine and Air Lock both prevent this boost, from what I understand, and so I think he'd be fairly vulnerable to both.