CAP 8 CAP 8 - Part 5a - Ability Discussion

[hydrolphin]

@ Hydrolphin: I see where you were going with that, but lets make one thing crystal clear about my iron fist post. I clearly stated that it would be an interesting Secondary choice. I listed names just to make sure people understood it, and the only examples I gave were with Focus Punch and Thunder Punch anyways, how many more would you need? an example set would be those two + Substitute and the dragon move of choice. I do support shield dust somewhat, but for the sake of people trying to make up their mind on choosing an ability please don't try to put down everything based on loose opinions and then support your own with a "hypothetical situation".

Well firstly, I must mention that we are discussing Primary abilities so your Iron Fist post wouldn't really belong here. Secondly, We have a defensive, likely special CAP, so why would we put Iron Fist on it for a gimmicky physical set anyways? I would rather not put Iron Fist on CAP8, and wait to put it on something that could use it. Putting Iron Fist on CAP8 just for the sake of a gimmick set is rather pointless. There are things that could do a very similar set better.

In other news:
@darkflagrence
One turn rest isn't that exciting. I fail to see how Early Bird trumps Shield Dust, when things like Flinch are the main reason I advocate Shield Dust. I would prefer Roost/Recover/etc. as instant recovery.
Here are the pros and cons of both:

Early Bird/Rest:
Pros-
Eliminates Status
Heals More Health
Semi Protection from random Hypnosis and Spore
Cons-
Sleep to heal
Can't deal with Freeze or Flinches

Shield Dust/Recover
Pros-
No random status
No flinch or freeze
Quick recovery
Cons-
Non-Random Status

I personally prefer not being freezed or flinched, which are much more annoying then Hypnosis, as they are more common no with the accuracy nerf. The fact that rest heals more health is really put off by the one turn of sleep.

@petrie
What person in there right mind would send in a frail sweeper, into a pokemon who resists their main STABs, is bulky, and can kill them with STAB Draco Meteors? E-Vire and Jolt are very poor switches into CAP8, no matter what para move it carries. And also, with all thos moves you listed, the only one I can see this guy getting, that I would actually use is maybe Toxic. Besides, anything running a bunch of those moves would suffer from the PP syndrome-It couldn't survive stall wars if all it had were low PP moves. And I prefer the 100% accuracy T-Bolt gives all the time to the 91% that Thunder gives.

 

[hydrolphin]

Thick Fat, I suggested it, but also feel its viable because it will most likely be Special (Mixed) Defensive. This ability does help with that without allowing it it be too powerful (Heatran still has Dragon Pulse for example), also Thick Fat seems to fit some of the art being presented as the dragon seems kinda... well "Thick Fat"-ish.

Please no flavor reasoning... its really annoying

We've already discussed how thick fat is really no that good, as it only really eliminates one weakness, which also happens to be the one that's least of its worries. And CAP8 already resists fire, so the x4 resist isn't really worth it. Thick Fat would be a very poor choice.

 

[Olie]

Well, as this is a defensive Pokemon that is likely to be absorbing status in some way, shape or form, Marvel Scale seems like the best choice here. Static, while fitting to the electric type, is just too unreliable. You're better off just using Discharge, which also nets you 30% paralysis, but at least that deals damage.

 

[Fuzznip]

I also support Marvel Scale. Most of the base stat spreads in the other thread have higher SpD then Def, so if we give it Marvel Scale, that would even out the defenses without adding any extra points into Defense.

 

[Deck Knight]

Well, as this is a defensive Pokemon that is likely to be absorbing status in some way, shape or form, Marvel Scale seems like the best choice here. Static, while fitting to the electric type, is just too unreliable. You're better off just using Discharge, which also nets you 30% paralysis, but at least that deals damage.

I fail to see how Marvel Scale isn't less reliable than Static. You basically either have to be slower than everything and have a 25% chance of attack failure (paralyzed) or have your HP slowly whitted away (Burn or Poison) for it to activate.

Static also doesn't use a moveslot to paralyze, whereas Discharge does.

 

[Joatmon]

To be fair with discharge, deck knight, I find it more reliable to use on bulky pokemon for the same reason that Snorlax uses Body Slam, and the difference between thunderbolt and discharge, only 15 base points, is worth the 30% paralysis rate in my opinion.

 

[Olie]

I fail to see how Marvel Scale isn't less reliable than Static. You basically either have to be slower than everything and have a 25% chance of attack failure (paralyzed) or have your HP slowly whitted away (Burn or Poison) for it to activate.

Static also doesn't use a moveslot to paralyze, whereas Discharge does.

The main reason I am favoring Marvel Scale right now is because of the bulk it already provides. Most of the spreads provided so far influence HP and SpDef, so having something to support its defence is useful in this situation. With Marvel Scale it would have an extremely useful Rest Talk set, which would make an almost perfect status absorber since the benefit it recieves sort of neutralizes the sleep status. Plus, this allows it to take priority attacks more handily, as all of them barring Vaccum Wave are Physical (though I admit this is sort of irrelivant unless talking about Ice Shard). Sure, Static has its usefulness as well. A paralyzed opponent is never a bad thing (unless they are using shit like facade or guts), but the Rest Talk strategy is guaranteed to work if used by a skilled battler (the only margin of error here is the possibility of landing on rest - 1/3 probability of failure), while Static has a 2/3 probability of failure.

and joatmon pretty much hit the discharge>thunderbolt nail on the head.

 

[cyberzero]

There will be approximately one day left until the Ability Poll will be coming up, so keep the discussion going!

 

[Joatmon]

As far as Marvel Scale goes, I think a boost in defense is not worth 1/4 chance of not doing anything, or taking extra damage each turn (SS+SR+toxic/burn=ouch). Also, people would be smart enough to use special moves if this occured, and judging form several stat spreads, cap8 might be weaker defensively physically than specially. I don't see merit in it truth be told. Discharge vs. T-bolt was more devil's advocate, ha ;P

 

[RotationalBasis]

The thing about Marvel Scale is that it may make people think twice about using a status attack, which means that it almost works as a pseudo-Shield Dust ability. It's a trade off. With Sheild Dust, you prevent secondary statuses from occurring, but can do nothing against direct status attacks. However, with Marvel Scale, you can deter the use of both direct and indirect status attacks. You can scare off other players' 'mons who might otherwise try to WoW, Sleep Powder or T-Wave you, and if you are "unlucky" enough to receive a status from a side effect, your opponent becomes "lucky" enough to be facing a 'mon with 1.5 times the defense.
Think of it this way. Considering most moves with side effects are neutral or resisted by our CAP8 (and direct status attacks do no damage), I'm not sure how many people will be happy to inflict minimal/no damage and risk/be sure of raising CAP8's defense, whereas Shield Dust does nothing to deter direct status attacks.

And of course, there's always leftovers.

 

[Veedrock]

Marvel Scale does not make me think twice about Thunderbolting Milotic. I fail to see why people will suddenly think "Marvel Scale? I best not use the 4x resisted Thunderbolt. Oh man, Ice beam is Super Effective, but if I freeze it I'm fucked. And why do I have some random ass poison move?" It doesn't really make people second guess those attacks like you would think. You sort of addressed this by saying "attacks are resisted (<-not helping your point btw) and yada yada yada, so it's more incentive not to use it" but why would one even debate the first half of that statement? That's all the incentive needed. "Oh man it's resisted, maybe I should keep using it just because." And Joatmon is right, the residual damage hurts (leftovers does not help) and the speed loss/paralysis rate just aren't worth it. I'd much rather NOT be toxic'd than have 1.5 defense, considering I'm gonna die relatively soon regardless. CAP8 does not look to support Marvel Scale very well.

 

[RotationalBasis]

Yes, I suppose with CAP8 resisting those attacks, there is little incentive to use them in the first place, but what I'm saying is that with Marvel Scale, you still wont lose out entirely if you happen to be statused by a Hax move. You also have the potential to make your foe think twice before using a direct status attack.

 

[pikpikcarrotmon]

you still wont lose out entirely if you happen to be statused by a Hax move.

Shield Dust covers that better than Marvel Scale, though. Where Marvel Scale takes a bad situation and finds some good in it, Shield Dust avoids it completely. I'm all for Shield Dust and Static at this point. I don't think Thick Fat, Cloud Nine, or Compoundeyes should even be considered since they're used in OU/CAP already.

 

[Deck Knight]

The thing about Marvel Scale is that it may make people think twice about using a status attack, which means that it almost works as a pseudo-Shield Dust ability. It's a trade off. With Sheild Dust, you prevent secondary statuses from occurring, but can do nothing against direct status attacks. However, with Marvel Scale, you can deter the use of both direct and indirect status attacks. You can scare off other players' 'mons who might otherwise try to WoW, Sleep Powder or T-Wave you, and if you are "unlucky" enough to receive a status from a side effect, your opponent becomes "lucky" enough to be facing a 'mon with 1.5 times the defense.
Think of it this way. Considering most moves with side effects are neutral or resisted by our CAP8 (and direct status attacks do no damage), I'm not sure how many people will be happy to inflict minimal/no damage and risk/be sure of raising CAP8's defense, whereas Shield Dust does nothing to deter direct status attacks.And of course, there's always leftovers.

Marvel Scale is not Guts. Guts makes people think twice about statusing you because there's a chance they'll basically have given you Choice Band damage with Life Orb recoil (Poison/Burn), and additionally will "enjoy" the boost to such an attack this round if they are slower. Whereas if you Fire Punch and burn CAP8, it will take reduced damage next round and still lose 12% health with no discernible benefit, provided your opponent has at least one special attack. Marvel Scale might be interesting to try on some kind of super-bulky Cradily or Armaldo-like pokemon (go SS SDef boost >_>), but as it stands with weaknesses to Ice Beam and Draco Meteor Marvel Scale doesn't strike me as beneficial. Restalk is alright I suppose but not when it invites things that can strike with CB EQ.

 

[ungulateman]

Too bad we can't make our own ability - a SpDef version of Marvel Scale would be great.

 

[Vividsketch]

I'd like to advocate for the possibility of a couple of dual abilities I feel could really pay off.

Rock Head and Reckless:

Even with the a slight bias to a special orientated stat spreed, the plausibility of the Base 120, 100% Accurate, Stab move that is Volt Tackle, can not be ignored. Along with most likely Outrage and any other high base power supporting moves, it allows a pokemon with a Defensive bias, to either remain Defensive, or turn a a corner and suddenly become a far more Offensive orientate threat.

There is an awesome trade off here. You can either choose to run Rock Head @ Leftovers, and remain a solid Defensive candidate. Or amp it up a bit. Run Rock Head @ Life Orb and gain a 30% boost in power with only a 10% recoil. Then there is the flip side.... Run Reckless, gain a 20% boost in power, receive regular recoil, yet maintain Leftovers recovery. Or go all out, power hungry, Offense and run Reckless @ Life Orb with a 30% + 20% boost in power on top of that! But receive painful amounts of recoil...

And of course at any time you have the freedom to run any other item you choose regardless of ability. And if we are generous with move pool later on this may not only benefit Volt Tackle, but it could also do the same for other good recoil moves like Flare Blitz and Brave Bird ect...


Glutton and Unburden:

Another case for an awesome duality with equal trade offs. This again allow CAP8 to remain a Defensive presence or turn the corner an suddenly play Offense.

I think it was Cartoons! who said it first but it does also present the opportunity to play some clever turns of multiply stat raises at once if collaborated with Stat up moves such as Dragon Dance, Nasty Plot or Calm Mind ect.... at 25% and certainly 50% of health remaining, it's natural bulk is still going to go a long way to maintaining a sweep.


Marvel Scale and Early Bird:

This has also been mentioned before I'm sure. But if we are in fact determined to make CAP 8 a Defensive orientated Dragon (not my immediate preference) then these Abilities will do just that!

Either as a status absorber of sorts, but most certainly as a SleepTalker. Even with only modest defensive stats to begin with these abilities with go a long way to prolonging its longevity.

I can see many ResTalk +Stat Up + Dragon Move sets become viable on this. Though there are obviously some far more interesting an innovative sets that can be had as well.

EDIT:
Shield Dust and Synchronize

There is obviously already a lot of support for Shield Dust. But it will possibly encourage then use of more direct status infliction instead, such as Thunder Wave and Will-o-Wisp (as if we didn't already, lol). But the possibility of Synchronize lingering in the back of opponents mind might also discourage the use of those as well.....



I realize that in all likely hood, only one ability will be chosen to achieve some kind of "optimum proficiency", but I just wanted to present the possibility that two neglected abilities might be able to perform better together then one.

 

[petrie911]

@petrie
What person in there right mind would send in a frail sweeper, into a pokemon who resists their main STABs, is bulky, and can kill them with STAB Draco Meteors? E-Vire and Jolt are very poor switches into CAP8, no matter what para move it carries. And also, with all thos moves you listed, the only one I can see this guy getting, that I would actually use is maybe Toxic. Besides, anything running a bunch of those moves would suffer from the PP syndrome-It couldn't survive stall wars if all it had were low PP moves. And I prefer the 100% accuracy T-Bolt gives all the time to the 91% that Thunder gives.

You misunderstand. Electivire and Jolteon are not switching into CAP8, true. But with a 4x Electric resist, CAP8 can very well switch into them. With Twave, you have to predict whether they will switch. With Glare, there's no need. Jolt and Evire hate paralysis, and if they switch, whatever comes in probably won't be thrilled with it.

As for the others, well, I'll admit using 8PP moves on a stalling Pokemon may not be the best idea. But you'd really prefer 95 power/100 accuracy/10% paralyze to 120 power/91 accuracy/30% paralyze? I would think a 25% increase in power and triple the paralysis rate would be worth a 9% drop in accuracy. It's still a 16PP move, even.

 

[hydrolphin]

You misunderstand. Electivire and Jolteon are not switching into CAP8, true. But with a 4x Electric resist, CAP8 can very well switch into them. With Twave, you have to predict whether they will switch. With Glare, there's no need. Jolt and Evire hate paralysis, and if they switch, whatever comes in probably won't be thrilled with it.

Why are they staying in at all? Jolteon is normally choiced, and E-Vire is generally bad to begin with. Again, both lose to CAP8. I wouldn't bother trying to paralyze them if I can kill them with Draco Meteor!

@Vividsketch-While I don't think a RestTalk/Stat Up/Dragon move (CroCap8?) would be very effective with all the steel types running around, I do very much like the combo of Sychronize and Shield Dust. As Shield Dust is passive, your opponent won't see it which could make it all the more dangerous in a combo. If we were to give CAP8 that combo of abilities, CAP8 either go te safe route with Shield Dust, or suprise with Synchonize.

 

[Gir!]

I think Shiel Dust is the option to go here. Its a passive ability, as Hydrolphyn said, so it will always have the surprise factor if CAP8 has 2 abilities, second, being protected from, say, Discharge paralisiz is really useful. Flinch annoys you? No more, Shield Dust kicks in and your opponent will see his/her Jirachi hitted from STAB neutral attack. Shield Dust has always been a great ability, I really hope it passes

 

[Penguino]

Why are they staying in at all? Jolteon is normally choiced, and E-Vire is generally bad to begin with. Again, both lose to CAP8. I wouldn't bother trying to paralyze them if I can kill them with Draco Meteor!

With this in mind, I think any self-respecting battler would switch out their electivire/jolteon to avoid the draco meteor that is so obviously coming, as hydrolphin says. In which case, you get free paralysis with glare on one of their pokemon as they switch in. And if they don't switch out, they attack you for little damage and you paralyze them anyways. The point is, you switch in on any jolteon/electivire/(any other pokemon that doesn't hit CAP8 very hard) and use glare. Its not like they're gonna switch out their pokemon right as you bring in CAP8. They can either get paralyzed and do nothing or switch into one of their pokemon good on CAP8 and get paralyzed anyways. Why bother trying to hit a pokemon with draco meteor when they might switch into a steel type? Why not just use glare?

 

[SuperSimon]

Im for Static. Not only do I not think Shield dust will fit the pokemon, Static would make pokemon second guess about attacking CAP8. Because we are making this pretty bulky, I think that having pokemon become paralyzed when they attack it, would benefit not only CAP8 who could start attacking then, but the players whole team in general. Also, having so much paralysis would allow other not so used abilities to shine such as limber.

 

[lati0s]

I'm agreeing with Shield dust

it would really help him counter some threats, and if we make a bulky sweeper of some sort it would help him set up without fear of being haxed

 

[The_Bassoonist]

I'm in full agreement about the usefullness of Glare. Just one thing: It's a Normal type attack, right? Won't it get blocked by Ghosts? 'cuz in that case I can see an upswing of ghost usage in CAP coming....

And in regards to the Shield Dust/Marvel Scale discussion: I'm strongly reminded about Lucario here. He gets Steadfast as well as Inner focus; one benefitting from flinch, the other avoiding it. Or Own Tempo vs Tangled feet; One avoiding confusion where the other benefits from it. It becomes a question of which you prefer. To benefit from the hax when it happens, or to avoid it completely.

I'd have to say that the potential boost from Marvel scale should not be underestimated. I like running Curse-sleep talk-mono attack sets where the held item is an Apicot berry instead of Leftovers. If I time the first rest properly, after a few Curses, I get full health+increased Sp.def+Curse boost(s). This pokemon then becomes pretty damn hard to take out. So a 1.5x boost can make a bigger difference than one might think. If our CAP gets Calm Mind, this will make a dangerous Rest-talker!

 

[zarator]

Glare does not hit Ghosts. At least, since GSC

 

[cyberzero]

The ability poll will be up shortly. That's enough for this thread, any more discussion should be held in the poll thread.