CAP 8 CAP 8 - Part 5a - Ability Discussion

[Gooey Kablooie]

I would like to mention Iron Fist as a good secondary ability choice. It's an ability that is clearly made for certain builds which is why it would be a good second ability. I support the more physical side of this poke personally and as such it shows great potential for sub-punching as well as weighing thunderpunch against thunderbolt, which seems to be a big reason why people are trying to make to make this poke more special sided, which personally I think is a little misguided. For example most of the special sided wants are to use Draco Meteor and Thunderbolt. Draco Meteor can be strong but it halves our Sp. Att and we've already decided to make a slightly defensive poke so it won't be very high to begin with, which then leaves us to switching out more. Which with this poke who faces many common SE moves, is not such a great idea to have to switch out a lot. Thunderbolt over Thunder Punch is easy to see why people are choosing it (because of the 95 to 75 power comparison) but lets remember that dragon is our more reliable STAB attack as it is only resisted by Steel and SE against other dragons who may want to switch in on an expected electric attack. Electric is resisted by three types (one being dragon who may try to switch in on these and outspeed for STAB+SE) and utterly nullified by ground which is going to be a commonly seen counter for this poke. Also, if power is so important why not go for iron fist then and throw some STAB+20% increased Thunder Punches around?

We could choose any other ability, the good ones that have been mentioned so far in my opinion are Rough Skin, Static, and Shield Dust. Then we could choose iron fist as a valuable secondary ability for people who want to use this slightly defensive poke to attack. Switching in on something that can't damage us and throwing up a healthy sub while they switch to a counter just to get hit with a massive Focus Punch (boosted 20% by iron fist). Then to be either outspeeded (depending on chosen stats) by a 20% thunderpunch/other move of choice or a priority move is a nice build option IMO.

Edit: Also, just in case anyone was wondering here are all the moves boosted by Iron Fist:
Bullet Punch, Comet Punch, Dizzy Punch, Drain Punch, Dynamic Punch, Fire Punch, Mach Punch, Mega Punch, Meteor Mash, Sky Uppercut, Ice Punch, Focus Punch, Hammer Arm, and Thunder Punch.

 

[Chomz]

In light of how this CAP's turning out, I vote we reintroduce Magic Guard as a possiblity.

Back when Magic Guard was put onto the Unallowed list, the chance of CAP 8 turning out to be an offensive Pokemon was still present. Therefore, the lack of Life Orb and Volt Tackle were, to be fair, powerful reasons to shift Magic Guard into Unallowed.

Now, we have all but determined that CAP 8 is going to be a primarily defensive Pokemon. Life Orb, though still powerful, shouldn't be quite as terrifying a something the likes of, say, Garchomp, so the problem isn't quite as relevant now. Furthermore, a quick galnce through the submitted stat spreads reveal that most favour SA over A, so Volt Tackle would probably either disappear completely from the movepools, or play a slightly more minor role.

Furthermore, as a pseudo-tank, the use of Magic Guard is still as potent as ever. CAP 8 could become a powerful stat absorber, eating Toxics (and maybe Burns) for its team with ease. Magic Guard's granted immunity to Sandstorm and all the entry hazards you can name also increase its long term durability.

In summary, I feel that Magic Guard is truly the only ability so far unabused in Standard that could viably have a Pokemon built around it. Let's go for it.

 

[Ascalon]

I'm in favour of static. Not only do you have a chance to paralize those who would dare attack with contact moves, but more importantly, you gain a deterant and the ablitity to engage in some agressive switching.

Very often, a switch merely frightens off a threat while being worn down slightly. However, a bulky static user could paralize threats without actually being visible on the turn the move is chosen. For instance, imagine a once-dragon-danced Gyarados about to commence a sweep. Out goes CaP8 on a predicted waterfall, taking only moderate damage, paralizing the Gyarados, and threating it with an STAB electic move. Naturally, static will only work one out of three times, but the very threat of it will cause Gyarados to be a bit more cautious.

And that leads on to my second point. The threat of paralysis is almost worth more than the paralysis itself. What self-respecting sweeper stays in to gain, say, a 2HKO when it has a 50% chance of paralizing itself (over the two turns)? In this way, static scares of sweepers and saves CaP8 more often than perhaps thunderwave might.

 

[bpblu]

Again, just throwing my two cents... although my two cents have been spoken by many others several times.

Shield Dust: Major ability IMO. Let's face it... hax is eventually going to screw you. Let's take Elec/Dragon, actually. x4 resistance to Electricity means hello switch! You take the Thunderbolt just fine. But wait... you got paralyzed! Suddenly you're looking at a chance of not moving at all during that turn. Shield Dust prevents said off-chance of secondary effects happening. People are annoyed to death with hax... Shield Dust can help cancel it. Again, probably not the most useful thing we can give it... but it's more helpful than you think, especially if you piss off Lady Luck.

 

[jagged_angel]

Custap strategy

This still relies on a 30% chance for the strategy to work. You Can't tell me that is useable. Look at Worry Seed Torterra for defeating Rev - that was a set designed solely to counter Rev (who at the time was dominating CAP, more so than Outragers currently) and it worked 100% of the time. Still, it was crap because no one wanted to waste a moveslot to counter 1 pokemon. This strategy would waste a moveslot And an item. Even more ludicrous is that the item only has 1 use! This is worse than gimmick.

While its true TTar may not be using AQ every match, a few pokemon almost necessitate using it unless they want to be KO'd, notably Hippowdon, who almost constitutes the entire reason to have AQ.

Riiight. You think switching CAP8 into Hippowdon is a good idea on the basis that you could paralyse it less than 1/3rd of the time. So less than 1/3rd of the time it gets paralysed (it was already slower than you) and still is no less threatening as it can still EQ you without a care.

No pokemon likes being paralysed, even slow ones (summary).

I never said that paralysis doesn't hinder the pokes at all. But you're choosing very unusual situations that you'd have to have a specific team to make happen. You're almost building a team around the crappy 30% chance of Static. Again, extreme desperation to find things to commend it. Far more common applications of Scizor (to SD then BP) and CBT (to switch into a Bliss or Latias then Pursuit it to death) aren't crippled by paralysis at all. In fact, these pokemon would fear Flame Body alot more. Or Effect Spore. And that's just from the pool of crappy 30% chance abilities!!!! How you can support Static over them I don't know.

Most of the Jirachi I've encountered have been Scarf variants and tend to be used as leads with Trick/Stealth Rock/U-turn/Iron Head. Depending on what the support movepool looks like (and I would support Slack Off) these could be minimal issues. I'm sure there are late-game variants but I don't see why something with as mid-grade speed as Jirachi would risk being unable to flinch something for more power. CB Zen Headbutts are an invitation to Tyranitar (whereas CB Iron Heads would be an invitation to CAP8, hehehe)

So you've basically ignored my statement that Shield Dust deals with Jirachi more effectively than Static. That's because there is No contest, Shield Dust is far superior against flinchaxers and can Always be counted upon to do what it does whereas 70% of the time, Static is Useless.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

I'm feel disgusted to say this but I feel that the only abilities that I want to see CAP8 have are Static, Hustle, and Trace. Static seem too damn conviced in both flavor, sneaky insertion of another concept(s), and because luck based abilites piss me off (in-game experience). Hustle and Trace however are abilities I don't have a problem seeing on CAP8. HustleGon would be interesting to see in battle and Trace is generally an all-around good ability.

 

[pikpikcarrotmon]

@jagged angel
No, no. Shield Dust prevents hax and Static causes hax. Shield Dust helps CAP8, Static hurts the foe. They do completely different things. I'm liking Shield Dust more and more as people discuss it. A Shield Dust/Static combo would actually be interesting, although I've still got a spot for Aftermath.

 

[Blue_Tornado]

I think Rough Skin will be good for a moderatley bulky pokemon, since he will be able to spam recovery moves in-front of physical attackers and stall them off...
It will be great with Toxic Spikes support. what do you think?

 

[Fuzznip]

I don't really like Aftermath. We don't want an ability that is useful when our bulky CAP dies... we want an ability that helps it live longer, and make use of its bulkiness.

Just my thoughts though.

 

[jagged_angel]

@jagged angel
No, no. Shield Dust prevents hax and Static causes hax. Shield Dust helps CAP8, Static hurts the foe. They do completely different things. I'm liking Shield Dust more and more as people discuss it. A Shield Dust/Static combo would actually be interesting, although I've still got a spot for Aftermath.

No no what? I know what the two abilities do. I know they have different jobs. I'm just comparing their usefulness and reliability which you can do even if they're vastly different. If you think of the abilities like a microwave - Shield Dust cooks, Static defrosts. Shield Dust is "Always On" when you need it, it can always be counted on to fulfill its purpose. You don't need to do anything or worry about it in any way. Static on the other hand has to be Switched on - Deck Knight was talking about Creating Situations where Static might work by switching into the right moves. That's pretty much what you Have to do with Static since most of the time people will be hitting you with NVE moves when you switch in to wall/counter them (which are Special) or SE moves when they predict you switching in/you don't switch out (which are Special/Non-Contact, except for Outrage).

So effectively, Shield Dust is like a microwave that is always on cook, and you can always count on it to cook your food when you need it. Static is like a microwave that only defrosts, and you have to Tell it to defrost, and then 70% of the time it doesn't work anyway. Which microwave would you prefer to have in your home? (I swear I don't work in a shop that sells microwaves)

All clear as mud?

 

[StevyB]

I think Rough Skin would be an exalt ability to help stall out Physical Attackers. The CaP could have good special defence so you would ether do little damage with Special Atteker or lose HP wile attaking with a Physical Attaker.

 

[pikpikcarrotmon]

But Shield Dust isn't a microwave, it's a holocaust cloak. The idea behind it is not to deter opponents from attacking but to protect yourself when they do. You can compare the two abilities, but not as if they're similar. Static is to make the other guy think twice about using a contact move.

I'm not on the same train as the other guy, I don't see Static factoring heavily into builds with the berries and whatnot, I think Static is there to use CAP8's bulk as an offensive measure. You can switch it into a predicted contact move, which you would have anyway, and have a chance of paralyzing the foe - setting up our bulky tough guy to outspeed and kill the poor sap with one of his fantastic STABs (Outrage, Dragon Pulse, Dragon Claw, Thunder/bolt/punch, Volt Tackle - whatever). The same chance that you would have of taking a secondary effect from another attack without Shield Dust, really, making it the perfect combo of abilities IMO.

 

[Magmortified]

I think Rough Skin will be good for a moderatley bulky pokemon, since he will be able to spam recovery moves in-front of physical attackers and stall them off...
It will be great with Toxic Spikes support. what do you think?

I can't imagine why a physical attacker, if it is able to hit CAP 8 hard, would not do so just because of Rough Skin. If it can't hit CAP 8 hard, it wouldn't bother to worry about Rough Skin anyways.

I repeat: Rough Skin does not deter physical attacks. It is a bonus. I think we could do a little bit better in that department.

Compoundeyes seems a little off as well. I think the primary reason people are supporting it is probably for a more accurate Thunder, or other status move. Boosting status moves seems a little unnecessary and picking the ability, which is integral to the concept, just for Thunder seems a little... off.

 

[Raj]

I'm starting to like Compoundeyes for a couple of reasons. Well they're all the same reason really, but for three moves in particular: Dragon Rush, Thunder, and Glare. I'm most excited about CE for Glare, which would have 97% accuracy and causes Paralysis regardless of whether the target is a Ground Pokemon.

 

[jagged_angel]

But Shield Dust isn't a microwave, it's a holocaust cloak. The idea behind it is not to deter opponents from attacking but to protect yourself when they do. You can compare the two abilities, but not as if they're similar. Static is to make the other guy think twice about using a contact move.

I'm not on the same train as the other guy, I don't see Static factoring heavily into builds with the berries and whatnot, I think Static is there to use CAP8's bulk as an offensive measure. You can switch it into a predicted contact move, which you would have anyway, and have a chance of paralyzing the foe - setting up our bulky tough guy to outspeed and kill the poor sap with one of his fantastic STABs (Outrage, Dragon Pulse, Dragon Claw, Thunder/bolt/punch, Volt Tackle - whatever). The same chance that you would have of taking a secondary effect from another attack without Shield Dust, really, making it the perfect combo of abilities IMO.

Shield Dust isn't a microwave or a cloak. It's a brand of medieval cleaner but thats besides the point. I am not comparing the two Abilities as if they're similar. I was comparing their reliability, the extent to which they can be used for the jobs they're supposed to do. That's got nothing to do with how similar they are or not.
I know you're not fascinated by Custap or anything, but my post was specifically responding to points that DK made, not fully explaining the reasons why Static sucks.

So now I'll respond directly to Your points about Static. You say it's useful for switching into a predicted contact move. Well, you can't rely on it switching into contact moves and I've already explained why:

If we look at the types Electric/Dragon is resistant to - Steel, Flying, Electric, Grass, Water and Fire - only 1 of those has any common physical moves - Steel. I think Grass Knot might be a contact move too but I'm not sure.

Since you'd only really be able to predict what to get hit by (and not mind getting hit by it) when switching in, resistances are the only typings of moves that really matter with a 'when hit by an attack' Ability like Static.

As a result of this poor typing match up - you could only afford to switch into Bullet Punch, Iron Head and Meteor Mash with any regularity. That's a 30% chance to paralyse 3 pokemon, one of which has a priority attack to avoid the speed drop anyway!

Yes, Static would provide a Very occasionally para for physical attackers but the only really prolific physical moves are Fighting type and they are 2/3kos on most neutral opponents anyway, due to a plethora of high BP move options, so CAP8 can't really afford so switch in when it's only Slightly Defensive.

So, if we take the only common contact-move resist of Elec/Dragon - Steel, CAP8 can only really afford to switch into Jirachi and Scizor with any regularity. Metagross is too risky since it almost always carries EQ.

Neutral contact moves like Crunch, Superpower and Close Combat are all too powerful and come from pokemon with too high Attack to count on switching into more than once, so Steel is the only Reliable resist that can abuse Static. That's pretty crappy really. If you're not convinced on the inability to switch into neutral contact moves, consider Heracross' ability to 2KO Skarmory with neutral Close Combat. Skarmory has Way better physical defence than any of the sets suggested for CAP8 and still can't take a neutral physical pounding.

Juxtapose Static with a hypothetical Special Static. Say that it has a 30% chance to inflict paralysis every time CAP8 is hit with a Non-contact move. The potential for crippling Fire, Water, Grass and Electric users is now on your pokemon. Sadly Electric/Dragon provides loads of non-contact resists and very few contact move resists.

It's just a Bad typing for Static.

 

[GTS]

Why isn't Marvel Scale seeing more love?
If this thing is a tank, then status would ruin it, just like almost every tank.
Marvel Scale gives you a nice status absorber, and it let's you accomplish something if you switch into a T-Wave, instead of ruining your tank.

I agree. I think Marvel Scale could do wonders for this CAP.

 

[pikpikcarrotmon]

It's just a Bad typing for Static.

I can see your point, but you are discounting Waterfall, Grass Knot, Iron Head, Brave Bird, Drill Peck, Thunder Punch, Fire Punch, and Flare Blitz, all of which are used regularly on OU Pokemon, not to mention a few of the neutral attacks like U-Turn.

 

[Pombo]

I am running on a Static/Shield Dust ticket.

Static: Static is a truly neglected ability that has failed because its potential has never been harnessed. Every priority attack except Vacuum Wave is a contact attack, and Static combined with good defense, resistance to two (Aqua Jet/Bullet Punch) and a weakness to only one of them (Ice Shard) provides an ideal switchin to cripple their users.

Shield Dust: Shield Dust has similarly been left in the cold on pokemon with stats far too weak to abuse it. Dustox? Really? Shield Dust also profits from decent defenses, being able to retaliate against flinchaxers without worry, never fearing a burn (bar WoW) or freeze, and even in our case being able to switch into a Discharge and Lava Plume with near impunity. It will never suffer a defense lower from ShadowStrike nor worry about the special defense drop that would doom it on a weak Earth Power, or even better, a resisted Seed Flare.

Combined these two abilities are marvelous, since all of the flinching moves bar Fake Out (one use) and Air Slash (resisted) have contact property. You could either fail at flinching or be paralyzed (with the resulting speed drop stopping any pretense of further flinching.) They really won't know which until they take the 30% chance of crippling thier own flinchwhore (or failing and eating Thunder Wave anyway)

I was going to write that, but DK did it before. i see only one problem:

No Thick Fat, as any 2 of this 3 abilities can make a really great combo, since you make make easier switch-ins or make your opponent think twice before using an ice move/air slash/a physical move.

 

[Run]

The main problem with Shield Dust is that secondary effects aren't often used against defensive pokes. If someone intends to cripple you, they are going to use a direct status inducer like T-Wave and WoW. Since Elec/Dragon resists things like fire blast and thunderbolt, its unlikely you are going to be in many situations where you need to worry about secondary effects.

The only real common exception to this is obviously paraflinchers like Togekiss and Jirachi. But do we really need this pokemon to be a check for those two? If so, vote shield dust. Also the stat spread is going to matter here. If this pokemon isn't ver physically bulky, switching into a Jirachi spamming Iron Head probably isn't going to be a great idea anyway, you'll take more damage than Jirachi is worth, there are plenty of better counters out there right now who resist steel.

Static, on the other hand, works against many types of moves and has a lot of prediction potential. Even if its only useful 30% of the time, thats still more often than only useful for Jirachi and Togekiss IMO.

I'm still undecided, BTW, those are just my thoughts from what I've been reading.

 

[MegaKick]

While I do see your point, and would support Shield Dust over almost any other ability, CAP 8 resists all those moves you mentioned, and with a defensive (albeit slightly) stat spread, the pokes using them probably wouldn't stay in (especially not Togekiss).

The entire point is that he's supposed to switch into those so he can counter them- like he said with the gyrados, the cap should be able to switch into things like that and counter them without being crippled by second effects. Therefore... I support Shield Dust for all the reasons already metioned

 

[LuistheNinja]

Static: Static is a truly neglected ability that has failed because its potential has never been harnessed. Every priority attack except Vacuum Wave is a contact attack, and Static combined with good defense, resistance to two (Aqua Jet/Bullet Punch) and a weakness to only one of them (Ice Shard) provides an ideal switchin to cripple their users.

Totally agreed. My other option is:

Thick Fat: We have a bulky dragon here, eliminating the Ice weakness is sure going to be handy. Lets take in mind the few pokemon with Thick Fat: Snorlax, Grumpig, Azumarril, Dewgong, Hariyama, Purugly, Miltank and Walrein. None of them really take an advantage from Thick fat since they aren't weak to it, in my opion finally someone woudl really take the advantages from Thick Fat into use.

 

[Captain]

captaiN: well maybe marvel scale won't be THAT BAD  
Ordinando: Force yourself to take a status for a boost  
Ordinando: Mm no thanks  
captaiN: just use restalk  
Ordinando: Make it the sleepy cap, early bird/marvel scale  
captaiN: alternative method to the fidget way  
captaiN: which is switch in fidget EVERY time the opponent uses a sleep move  
Umbreon Dan has left Doug's Create-A-Pokemon Server.  
Ordinando: I always forget he has insomnia  
captaiN: Marvel scale might make an extremely effective restalker, lucky we aren't weak to breloom, but...  
captaiN: we don't resist its moves either  
Ordinando: I always thought most had persistant  
captaiN: at least we aren't weak to ghost or psychic  
captaiN: nobody fucking uses persistant  
captaiN: also aftermath is better than nothing  
captaiN: at least that is guaranteed to be useful  
captaiN: any other ideas  
captaiN: ooh damp...that's cool  
captaiN: it's amazing how barely anybody knows how good explosion is  
Ordinando: Yeah that would have good use for a lead 
Ordinando: especially if it got fake out 
captaiN: it's useful on anything with a useable attack stat really 
Ordinando: but it's not going to be fast enough 
captaiN: even shit like gar ha used it 
captaiN: *has

 

[Blazebat]

I know it has been neglected compared to some other abilities, but lets have all of the supporters of Marvel Scale lets band together and at least give it a chance to be the ability.

 

[zach the great]

Trace and Rough Skin sound awesome for a defensive Pokemon.

Also Rock Head would be nice if it got Volt Tackle.

 

[Penguino]

Used to be in support of thick fat, but I got won over...

As an alternative, I'd like to suggestive the duality of Gluttony and Unburden. The CAP metagame is already heavily stall based and I think it'd be fun to see how we could get this tankish Pokemon with (anticipating here) average offensive stats to try to pull off a sweep using these abilities.

I kinda like this idea. I don't really want an entirely defensive pokemon (I don't think anyone else does either, judging from the offensive-defensive polls), and one of these two abilities would add an offensive side to this guy in a very original, uncommon, CAPish way.

On the offensive side, I also support compoundeyes. It adds both support (sleep powder?) capabilities and offensive (thunder) capabilities.

Many of the other abilities such as static, effect spore, and thick fat (one reason I dumped it) all support an entirely defensive wall. Thats not what CAP8 is being made to do.