CAP 9 CAP 9 - Part 13a - Attacking Moves Discussion

[Plus]

not a manatee! YEAHHH!

Name: Stop the Secondary
Description: A Pokémon that through means of ability, moves, and typing, can stop a variety of the non damaging affect of moves and moves of non damaging origin.

Justification: While the immediate threat of damaging moves is large and present, the affect of moves such as status, Trick, Leech Seed, Taunt, Stealth Rock, Spikes have arguably had a greater affect to the metagame than anything has ever had, something that this would greatly look in to.

Questions to be Answered:
~ How easily would a Pokémon with such large of a niche be able to fit into a competitive team?
~ How large of an impact would the reducation of non damaging affects and moves have on the metagame?

- What, if any, would happen to the types of teams being used?
- How would this affect the usage of these types of moves?​

~ How much of an affect does typing have on the ability for ANY Pokémon to perform this duty?

Typing: Dark/Ground
Ability: Auto-Magic Coat
Ability: Guts
Stat Spread: 133/122/72/71/72/95

It's movepool time. Before we rush into making movepools, we're going into Attacking Moves Discussion. To those of you new to CAP, simply suggest and discuss ATTACKING moves for this CAP. An attacking move is classified as a move that does primary damage as its main effect. Before some idiot suggests Rapid Spin and Knock Off in this thread, Rapid Spin and Knock Off are used for their secondary effects.

Moves suggested will be put into the following categories. Allowed means that the moves suggested will be allowed for the movepool. Pending is simply a group for moves that have not been discussed that can sway into either group. Disallowed is for moves that are broken or detract from the CAP. Controversial is for moves that might or might not be broken. Moves in this group will be in a poll in which we decide what moves are allowed, and what moves are not.

Use this for easy offensive moves reference

The moves:

Allowed

Crunch
Megahorn
Seed Bomb
Earthquake
Pursuit
Fire Fang
Selfdestruct
Stone Edge
Focus Punch
Sucker Punch
Superpower

Pending


Controversial

Ice Shard
Thunder Fang
Explosion
Ice Punch
U-turn
Hydro Pump
Aqua Tail
Brave Bird
Drill Peck
Zen Headbutt
Ice Fang
Fire Blast
Overheat

Disallowed

Fire Punch
Thunderbolt
Spark
Close Combat
ThunderPunch

For more reference, a quick list of RESPONSES (NOT COUNTERS PEOPLE) that CAP 9 probably has atm
Hippowdon, Swampert, Suicune, Gyarados, Tangrowth, Skarmory, Gliscor, Salamence, Scizor

The Rules

• The list of moves in this post will serve as the single point-of-reference for the current state of the discussion.

• Post arguments for moves to be Allowed or Disallowed from the Pokemon's final movepool. All posts should be presented with reasoning.

• Posting lists of moves is strictly prohibited. Do not copy the TL's list, and then add "Yes/No" or a similarly worthless comment, beside each one. Posts that contain lists of moves will be deleted, even if the post contains additional reasoning and content.

• The Topic Leader will update the list continuously throughout the discussion, using recent posts to determine changes to the move list. Moves may have a fluctuating status as the community debates for or against the move in response to changes in the OP.

• Posts should be based on the current state of the list in the OP. It is the responsibility of each member to check the OP before making any post in the thread. Posts that demonstrate lack of familiarity with the current OP will be deleted.

• The Topic Leader is the sole arbiter for determining "general community consensus". The TL may ignore arguments for or against certain moves, if they feel the argument is not presented with sufficient evidence or reasoning. Do not assume that the existence of a few dissenting posts will ensure that a move will be categorized as Controversial.

• All moves that are considered Competitive for this Pokemon are included in the list in the OP. Non-Competitive moves should not be discussed in this thread, unless you feel they are incorrectly categorized and should be considered Competitive (see next rule).

• If you disagree with the TL's categorization of a move as Competitive or Non-Competitive, you can post arguments in this thread, but reasoning must be supplied.

Keep it reasonable, don't fucking threadhog, don't fucking whine/throw insane amounts of theorymon at me (mines surpasses yours!), etc.

Please only post moves you think are controversial.

 

[tennisace]

The last iteration of this thread quickly turned into a shitstorm. So, lets start again.

You are allowed to suggest new attacking moves that have significant competitive merit. This does not include moves that have the sole purpose of defeating a counter or check.

You are allowed to discuss the placement of said moves.

You must use competitive-based arguments when discussing moves.

You may not make flavor arguments, joke or serious.

You may not suggest moves that go along with the flavor of the pokemon.

If you do not follow these rules, your post will be moderated swiftly and strictly.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

I don't have anything to agrue nor suggest at the moment but ThunderPunch automatically not allowed on the sand whale, is they any reason why? Does it hurt it's counters/checks/whatever that badly?

 

[Plus]

Gyarados is one of the things that I'd honestly like to keep as a solid check to CAP 9. Stone Edge isn't that bad compared to ThunderPunch, as ThunderPunch does a lot more than Stone Edge to Gyarados anyways. Overall I agreed with Deck Knight from the last thread that was up (too bad his posts were deleted, they were some of the better posts anyways), and it really seemed unnecessary.

 

[petrie911]

I suggest Focus Punch. It's a good, solid move, and certainly discourages secondary moves.

I'd also say that all special water and fire moves should be allowed. It was kind of the whole point of giving it a decent 71 base satk. Standard Hippowdon can still take its Hydro Pumps unless it invests in satk, while FB's 2HKO on Skarmory is, again, the reason for its base satk. Overheat/Surf/Flamethrower may as well be allowed, as they're just lesser versions of Hydro Pump and Fire Blast.

 

[Chomz]

There was considerable argument for special-based Fire moves in the stat discussion, so I would say that they be allowed on CAP 9. With base 70+ Sp. Attack, CAP 9 can still use Fire Blast to comfortably 2HKO the standard Physically-defensive Spiking Skarmory without Sp. Atk investment, thus removing it as a viable check. IMO, it's essential that CAP 9 has a way to overcome physical walls which would otherwise set up on him, thus proving counter-productive to the initial concept.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Gyarados is one of the things that I'd honestly like to keep as a solid check to CAP 9. Stone Edge isn't that bad compared to ThunderPunch, as ThunderPunch does a lot more than Stone Edge to Gyarados anyways.

Offensives CAP9 using TP against BulkyDos
228 Atk vs 218 Def & 370 HP (75 Base Power): 224 - 268 (60.54% - 72.43%)

CB/Guts TP now
342 Atk vs 218 Def & 370 HP (75 Base Power): 340 - 400 (91.89% - 108.11%)

---------------------------------

Offensive CAP's TP against Crocune
343 Atk vs 361 Def & 404 HP (75 Base Power): 102 - 122 (25.25% - 30.20%)

Guts/CB version
514 Atk vs 361 Def & 404 HP (75 Base Power): 154 - 182 (38.12% - 45.05%)

---------------------

Offensive CAP's TP on Spiker Skarm
343 Atk vs 396 Def & 334 HP (75 Base Power): 94 - 112 (28.14% - 33.53%)

Guts/CB version
514 Atk vs 396 Def & 334 HP (75 Base Power): 140 - 166 (41.92% - 49.70%)

Hm...yeah, ThunderPunch make Gyarados from a decent check to a shaky check. Skarm has a 83% chance of being 2HKO by Guts ThunderPunch if SR is up. Suicune can take it, though can Cune kill CAP9 before it kills him?

 

[FlareBlitz]

I don't see why Fire Fang is Controversial while Flame Wheel is Allowed. They have the same base power, is the extra flinch/burn chance over the instant freeze removal really that broken?

Well, anyway, I support Thunder Fang. It only outdamages CAP9's primary STAB on quad weaks, and the flyers/levitators in OU are generally either weak to Dark or Neutral to electricity. There are only two exceptions to this:
1) Skarmory
2) Gyarados
Now, Skarmory is dealt with by Flame Wheel just as efficiently, so Thunder Fang doesn't change its ability to check CAP9. Which leaves just Gyarados. Let's look at a comparison of Stone Edge (already in CAP9's movepool) versus Tfang:

Offensive Gyarados is ohko'd by Guts-boosted Stone Edge all the time with rocks, while failing to outrun neutral-speed CAP even if it runs +speed. This is also factoring Intimidate, obviously: 376 Atk vs 176 Def & 331 HP (100 Base Power): 306 - 362 (92.45% - 109.37%)
Obviously, in this case, Tfang v. Stone Edge really doesn't affect Gyara's ability to check CAP9.

Now, Bulky Gyara from the analysis: 376 Atk vs 218 Def & 369 HP (100 Base Power): 248 - 292 (67.21% - 79.13%)
Ohko'd 29% of the time with rocks and lefties, and nearly all the time with rocks + sand.

Finally, RestTalk Gyra (248/252+): 376 Atk vs 282 Def & 393 HP (100 Base Power): 192 - 228 (48.85% - 58.02%)
Flat 2hko with rocks. And actually manages to 2hko even if Gyra switches in on crunch.

The only significant thing Thunder Fang does here is turn the 2hko on RestTalkGyra into an ohko 3% of the time and guarantee the ohko on BulkyGyra. As you can tell, this doesn't really change Gyarados' value as a check (which is to say, Gyarados is still a shitty check with or without Tfang).
So, you might ask, why actually run Tfang over Stone Edge at all, if it doesn't add anything Stone Edge doesn't?
Well, for one thing, Tfang hits Skarm for SE damage while Stone Edge does not. There's also the accuracy issue. In addition, Tfang's flinch and paralysis rate can come in handy at times.

In other words, Thunder Fang adds value to CAP9's movepool without significantly impacting the prior ability of certain Pokemon to check it. That is why I believe it should be included in its movepool.

On the other hand, I oppose Ice Fang. Why? Well, CAP9's strongest move against Gliscor is Facade, which does:

564 Atk vs 383 Def & 354 HP (140 Base Power): 148 - 175 (41.81% - 49.44%)
That's against Max/Max+ Gliscor.

Obviously, that's a lot. But Gliscor can actually switch in on Crunch, take a Facade hit and (barely) survive, and U-turn out to something that can kill a CAP weakened by 3 turns of Flame Orb and ~20% worth of U-turn damage. So this makes Gliscor a relatively reliable check. Now give it Ice Fang and you get a different story...

564 Atk vs 383 Def & 354 HP (65 Base Power): 276 - 328 (77.97% - 92.66%)
Oh crap.

So yeah, Gliscor is not a check by any reasonable definition of the word with Ice Fang. It goes from a Pokemon who is 3hko'd to a Pokemon who is very nearly ohko'd.
In addition to Gliscor, one of the most effective counters mentioned in the Counters Discussion thread was Torterra. It goes without saying that Ice Fang also reduces Torterra from an extremely viable check to something that is ohko'd by an Ice Fang after switching in on any of CAP9's attacks. Due to Ice Fang's ability to allow CAP9 to significantly increase its threat level to 2 of its identified checks, I oppose it.

My feelings on Sucker Punch were already explained in the previous thread. To summarize, we should be discouraging the use of secondary moves, not encouraging them (with the threat of a strong sucker punch).

 

[Korski]

It is my firm belief that the move Sucker Punch should be Allowed.
Sucker Punch has a surprise factor as an excellent way to deal with speedy Dark-weak pokemon who want to come in and would otherwise force CaP out (Latias, Starmie, Azelf, LO Celebi, etc.). Like most Dark-Type attacks, it is situationally powerful and, as such, lends itself to intelligent strategy and excellent prediction. The fact that it's a priority move means that the speedy Psychic and Ghost types (the very ones CaP should be capable of handling) who pack SE moves won't be able to switch in and force CaP out with 100% confidence, as they are likely to do without SP in the movepool.

I suppose the main argument against this is that it is "too good" in some capacity, so I'll list the downsides of Sucker Punch now in preparation.
1) 8 PP- this number is despicably low, so the user of SP CaP must be very careful when using the move. Unlike Scizor's BP, which can be thrown around all day, Sucker Punch is one of the easiest moves to PP stall in the game.
2) It fails unless the opponent tries to attack that turn. Beyond losing precious PP, a bad prediction could spell doom as the opponent throws up a Sub and starts stat-ing up on you, or switches in Zapdos or something that can Pressure-stall you in only a couple of turns.
3) Running SP + Crunch/Pursuit to make up for SP's faults extremely limits CaP's versatility in other areas, notably type coverage and/or utility, meaning it is a lot easier to counter.
4) Guts CaP will not run Sucker Punch. Plain and simple. That would be suicide (see points 1-3).

Alright, just like my post from the last thread, I will reserve any more comments for once counter-arguments arise. Peace!

 

[Anachronism]

Fire Blast
Overheat

these should all be in the disallowed column. Skarm is one of the only things that can switch in without taking a beating from this thing. CAP 9 is already very good at what it does (pursuit secondary users , esecially ghosts and psychics), therefore we don't need to allow it to be a sweeper with amazing coverage also. This doesn't need to sweep stall by itself. Since it is removing the ghost and possibly blissey all by itself, it has effectively already ruined stall. It shouldn't be able to keep skarm scared too... He will probably end up with taunt to keep skarm from setting up on him anyway. If we keep skarm as a constant check to CAP 9, we can give it more interesting moves that can eliminate a couple of things from being surefire counters at the expense of his coverage. if we don't have something that always walls him, then we probably shouldn't do this.

Superpower
Close Combat

Lets make the Blissey war at least at bit interesting, shall we? Though this is for the most part redundant coverage on the same set with EQ, I don't think I want it to have the option. With these, CAP 9 could pretend to pursuit but then OHKO blissey instead. By killing Blissey and Rotom so easily, this thing will essentially destroy stall with the help of Starmie. When something allows something else to sweep effortlessly, that fits the uber support characteristic. Sorry. On the other hand, I like the idea of Focus Punch, if only because it would discourage secondary and would make the blissey kill have to be seriously earned. A sub punch set would also ad variety.

Also, I agree that Sucker punch should be allowed. It has 8 pp and CAP 9 will often have to decide between Sucker Punch, Crunch, and Pursuit. The Guts set will need Crunch, and less sweepish sets will want Pursuit most of the time, so using Sucker Punch will usually be eating into your coverage move slots. As mentioned earlier, substitute is a real danger too. I pretty much completely agree with Admiral Korski on this.

If people are still worried that Sucker Punch is too strong, another option would be to remove Crunch from its movepool to take away some of the surprise factor for the opponent. So I would like to ask that you put Crunch on the pending or controversial list. I assume that it was put on the Allowed list simply because it is generic dark STAB, but I think that we might want to have the option to choose between Crunch, Sucker Punch, or both. familyguyman's Punishment idea is also interesting.

Also, I am completely fine with the inclusion of the Elemental Fangs. The only things that you would want these for are gyarados, scizor, and dragonite (lol) possibly gliscor. mence outspeeds you anyway. Would it really be worth it to include these moves just to hit one target? These fangs don't do nearly enough to Skarmory or Suicune to warrant using them, so that is not an issue.

I would like to discuss Facade. Since this thing will probably be abusing flame orb, it needs to be on our radar. I don't know exactly where it should go, but it should be up there somewhere.

 

[wickdaggler]

I'm sorry for my previous behaviour. I rushed into the thread, eager to contribute, while only skimming the rules, and ended up as the 'nail in the coffin' for the thread. I will try to only talk about moves that could be contriversial, as apposed to flavor moves like DIG.

Anyway:
I am highly againsed the elemantal punches for this pokemon. The +10 boost in power is enough to enable it to 2 or even 1HKO certain pokemon with a boost from guts and/or life orb. This pokemon does not seem like a sweeper to me, and I belive that we should steer it more towards filling it's original role. That's my opinion anyway.
Though many people belive SuckerPunch might be cheap because of priority and 80 attack, I belive that it would tie in greatly with CaP9: Because of it's abilities and (probable) moves, most people will be discouraged from using a secondary type move againsed this pokemon. With MagicCoat, (or whatever we are calling it) this move will have a huge advantage. But with guts, this move will have enough power to possibly 1HKO people. It's good to keep people guessing :P.
Finally, I suggest Night Slash. It is a good basic attacking move, and the critical hit ratio makes it pretty decent. As well, most responces to CaP9 will proably resist or negate dark types, so the move will not be overpowered. However, the move might be considered to be overpowered because of the high crit ratio, STAB, and Guts.

I hope I did okay... *gulps*

 

[familyguyman]

Ok, I will try again since I posted while this was getting cleaned up.

Punishment would be a very interesting move. Starting at Base 60, it's a decent move albeit unspectacular. However, it really shines when it starts to "Stop the Secondary" as they boost up. Now, by having Punishment over, say, Crunch, we could make more of a case for Sucker Punch being a good, but not broken, move.

 

[NoahAudubon]

I would like to suggest Avalanche.
It takes advantage of CAP9's Attack stat and it offers further type coverage.

 

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

I would like to suggest Return for the list of allowed moves. It offers an alternate choice for a drawback-free move with high base power but without any huge coverage implications. Also, practically everything gets it, so it should be pretty uncontroversial.

I would also like to suggest Aerial Ace. It provides extra coverage against both Fighting and Bug types that try to come in for super effective damage, is consistent, and does not carry a risk of loading the Pokemon down with too many moves with too much base power.

I agree with petrie911 that Focus Punch belongs on CAP9. I would add the further reason that, in addition to adding variety as Anachronism points out, a Sub Punch set would help accomplish the project's goal by encouraging the use of Substitute, an excellent means of dealing with secondary effects.

 

[hydrolphin]

NOTE: All Calcs are done assuming that CAP9 has max attack/positive nature+a guts boost holding a flame orb. All special attack calcs are done with aneutral nature and no investment.


There is a definate difference between the Fangs and the Punches. For example a Max Attack (376 correct?) Guts boosted Fire Punch 2HKOs Skarm almost all of the time with SR:

Fire Punch: 564 Atk vs 396 Def & 334 HP (75 Base Power): 154 - 182 (46.11% - 54.49%) 97.17% 2HKO with Lefties and SR

Meanwhile Fire (or Thunder) Fang rarely 2HKOs:

Fire Fang: 564 Atk vs 396 Def & 334 HP (65 Base Power): 134 - 158 (40.12% - 47.31%) 0.33% 2HKO with Lefties and SR

As you can see, the overall damage output is very similar, but the results are completely different. With FP, skarm can't switch in. With FF (or Thunder Fang) Skarm can outstall with Roost (which would lead to some interesting mind games with EQ, which has a good chance to OHKO Skarm at full health).

Fire Blast is in a simlar boat as Fire Punch. With NO investment in SPA against standard Skarm Fire Blast does a minimum of 52.1%, meaning its a clean 2HKO, unless Skarm has lefties, has taken no previous damage and you are really unlucky.

Against Tangrowth (who is surprisingly better physical defensively than Skarm), that same Fire Fang fails to 2HKO. Fire Punch has about a 50% chance to 2HKO chance with SS, SR and Lefties, and Fire Blast always 2HKOs standard Tangrowth with a neutral natured CAP9, no EV investment.

After reviewing thes it is obvious in my mind that: Fire Blast should be unallowed and Fire Fang should be ALLOWED. Fire Punch is more contriversial, but I believe it should be UNALLOWED as well.

----
Next most important is the difference between Aqua Tail and Waterfall (which does not appear on the list?). These would be good filler moves as they provide coverage on Ground. But Aqua Tail nets some 2HKOs waterfall doesn't. Waterfall does only 44.76% - 52.86% to the standard Hippo, which only has a 21 percent chance to 2HKO, while Aqua Tail does 50.48% - 59.52%, which is a sure 2HKO with SR. Meainwhile, both always 2HKO the standard Gliscor, but Aqua tail is riskier, as it has a chance to miss. Because of this, I suggest both Aqua Tail and Waterfall be allowed. They are essentially the same move when it comwes to CAP9, but I assume most will opt for Waterfalls accuracy if CAP9 gets both.

 

[Deck Knight]

It is my firm belief that the move Sucker Punch should be Allowed.
Sucker Punch has a surprise factor as an excellent way to deal with speedy Dark-weak pokemon who want to come in and would otherwise force CaP out (Latias, Starmie, Azelf, LO Celebi, etc.). Like most Dark-Type attacks, it is situationally powerful and, as such, lends itself to intelligent strategy and excellent prediction. The fact that it's a priority move means that the speedy Psychic and Ghost types (the very ones CaP should be capable of handling) who pack SE moves won't be able to switch in and force CaP out with 100% confidence, as they are likely to do without SP in the movepool.

I suppose the main argument against this is that it is "too good" in some capacity, so I'll list the downsides of Sucker Punch now in preparation.
1) 8 PP- this number is despicably low, so the user of SP CaP must be very careful when using the move. Unlike Scizor's BP, which can be thrown around all day, Sucker Punch is one of the easiest moves to PP stall in the game.
2) It fails unless the opponent tries to attack that turn. Beyond losing precious PP, a bad prediction could spell doom as the opponent throws up a Sub and starts stat-ing up on you, or switches in Zapdos or something that can Pressure-stall you in only a couple of turns.
3) Running SP + Crunch/Pursuit to make up for SP's faults extremely limits CaP's versatility in other areas, notably type coverage and/or utility, meaning it is a lot easier to counter.
4) Guts CaP will not run Sucker Punch. Plain and simple. That would be suicide (see points 1-3).

Alright, just like my post from the last thread, I will reserve any more comments for once counter-arguments arise. Peace!

This is a good starting point, so I'll just reiterate my arguments for Sucker Punch from the previous thread.

1. Sucker Punch is terrible as the only Dark STAB. Support iterations of the offensive threats it mitigates essentially set up for free, especially against the inherent timer of the Orb-abuse Guts Sweeper. Latias, Cresselia, and Reflect Starmie can simply set up and stall it out with impunity, as it loses 12.5% health whether it connects with an attack or not.

2. Because of this, invariably a Guts set with Sucker Punch will need to have a second Dark STAB like Crunch or Night Slash. This brings in 4-moveslot syndrome and creates coverage issues. You end up with a set that loooks like Crunch/Earthquake/Sucker Punch/Coverage Move. Something like Fire Fang would help you deal with Skarm but lead to you being walled by Gliscor and Hippowdon (aside from Burn/Flinch rates). With any other coverage move, Skarmory walls you pretty much indefinitely.

3. Even with this coverage, Anything that outspeeds CAP9 like say an offensive Celebi with Substitute can capitalize on Sucker Punch's free turn, and can attack behind a Sub with impunity.

Sucker Punch is a priority move that can be played around, unlike most of its other brethren. It has substantial limiting features, even against the pokemon it supposedly ensures victory against.

It retains high usefulness on non-Orbed Guts sets, however, because it those sets you will probably be gaining HP per turn rather than losing it.

Re: Fighting Moves:

I support Superpower and oppose Close Combat.

It's a well-established fact that sweepers do not care about Close Combat's defense drops. Infernape and Lucario use Close Combat to great effect. Close Combat has far too few drawbacks from an offensive perspective. It makes it a be-all and end-all answer to Blissey, and even undermines itself because it can be SPAMmed with relative impunity. Close Combat may not pick up much more from Earthquake as far as coverage, but it still hits a few key walls a little too hard.

Adamant Guts Close Combat vs. Standard Spiker Skarmory:

565 Atk vs 396 Def & 334 HP (120 Base Power): 123 - 145 (36.83% - 43.41%)

Now you might say this doesn't even 2HKO, but remember as long as Skarmory comes in with even 70%-ish health, you will 2HKO it. Lets say Skarm comes in on SR the firts time, and you Close Combat it. Unless it uses Roost on the switch-out, it won't be able to come in on CAP9 again safely.

Superpower is a much more balanced move that can still net decent KOs.

 

[Walvren]

I'd like to suggest Flare Blitz.

Though it is far more powerful than other suggested Fire moves, Flare Blitz has the drawback of recoiling which CAP9 may or may not be able to afford.

I'd also like to voice my support for Punishment and Avalanche.

Punishment can be used to punish (duh!) stat uppers like Gyarados and Salamence (assuming CAP9 doesn't get Electric or Ice type moves) and some obscure ones in OU such as Mismagius.

Avalanche can be used to play mind games with the opponent. The opponent is met with three options with their weakened pokemon: switch, use an offensive move or use a secondary move. Will the opponent switch and risk getting Pursuit-ed? Or perhaps (s)he'll try to use a secondary move and hopes (s)he survives or (s)he'll attack and risk getting Avalanch'd

(Although I support Avalanche, its double damage effect isn't easy to take advantage of. Crunch does equal damage with higher priority, so it comes down to coverage, really.)

 

[Lostmyth]

You may not suggest moves that go along with the flavor of the pokemon.
I don't understand what tennisace+ means with the word flavor can someone explain it to me?
While in the mean time I don't know if this goes against anything but I suggest Drill Peck

 

[Admiral_Stalfos19]

I don't understand what tennisace+ means with the word flavor can someone explain it to me?

It's more 'logical sense' than anything really.

Oh, and um, I'd like to propose Reversal as at least controversial. It guarantees a OHKO against all forms of Blissey of CAP9 in critical health (even a Jolly CAP9, as long as it has at least 176EVs to attack). But what make Reversal balanced is the fact that CAP9 has to be low on health in order for it to deal significant damage

 

[Raikaria]

Earthquake, Persuit and Crunch, are all givens. Brick Break is right up there. Stone Edge is also a given, considering every Ground-type gets it.

Seed Bomb? Who decided that? The mere possibility that this thing could be packing it takes Swampert off the checks list, as well as Hippowdon and Suicune. 3, of the few checks, gone by 1 move. I don't see this CAP using it either, in a flavor context. I think it should be Contraversial at best.

I say no to Close Combat. Only 1 non-fighting type learns Close Combat, Staraptor. Bird is nothing like a Narwhal. It dosen't look like the type to charge in, arms flailing. In competitive terms, CC becomes redunant: See below.

On the other hand, I say Yes to Superpower. This CAP does look like the type to deliver one, bone-crushing, blow.

Outrage I dislike the idea of, mainly for the same reasons as CC. Dosen't look like the type to rampage, not to mention, Mance is an even more shaky check than it is already, with Dragon Claw and Stone Edge.

Aqua Tail = no. Something that burrows cannot use Aqua Tail. And, by burrows, I mean, Digglet-like, not Rhydon like (Who has a large tail anyway). Moveing onto competitive, Aqua Tail would probobly never find itself on any moveset of CAP9, which will probobly always include: Persuit/Filler, EQ, Crunch (Filler)

Any form of Fire-type move, I am against. Sorry, but this thing needs at least 1 solid counter. A Fire-type move, will cause issues for the single thing that is a sloid 'counter', Skamory. And, before anyone says, Skarm doesn't counter CAP9. True. But it walls it from one side of China and back again, chipping away all the while with Brave Bird.

Sucker Punch = Yes. It's a Dark-type, so it gets STAB. It's an option for weaknening offensive pokemon, or faster ones that can cause secondaries (Cough, Celebi, Cough, Latias, Cough). In addittion, although this borders on flavor, I can see this CAP going underground, and delivering a sudden punch from under something.

 

[KoA]

Only 1 non-fighting type learns Close Combat

Pinsir, Ursaring, Zangoose, Granbull?

But I agree, I can't see Mr. Blubbers using it really.

 

[Purple Wobbuffet]

Outrage = No. It wouldn't find itself used on any of the things movesets for this reason: It 3HKOes Skarm if CAP9 is holding a Choice Band and has Guts activated. Skarm will happily set up Spikes while losing around 27% to Outrage. Outrage goes against the concept of this CAP by making it easy for Skarm to set up Spikes.
Seed Bomb = No. What's this going to be used on? Bulky Waters? They're all 2HKOed by Earthquake.

 

[FlareBlitz]

Sucker Punch/EQ/Crunch/Coverage is not as bad as you're making it out to seem. It's essentially the set that Honchkrow runs in UU (with Brave Bird instead of EQ). While Honchkrow obviously doesn't lose health every turn, the only real difference this makes is to make Substall more viable against the Guts sweeper (as Krow still loses health when it attacks to Life Orb). And weakness to subtalling is not a failing of Sucker Punch, it's a failing of _any_ CAP9 Guts-sweeper set, including one that has two coverage options.
As to being walled more easily, yeah, that's always there. But there's a reason Lucario runs Extremespeed over, say, Ice Punch; priority is extremely important, especially on something with relatively low speed. You might say that Extremespeed is more versatile because it always hits, but I say that it's equally as versatile because one of the most popular revenge killers in OU is not immune to it (scarf Rotom-A).
Additionally, if a Pokemon tries to set up anything but a sub on CAP9, they risk taking a really strong Crunch/EQ/coverage move. Your scenario regarding Starmie is an example. Let's say that it runs Timid with enough speed to outrun base 100+ natured Pokemon (The analysis reflect set doesn't outrun CAP9 or any other physical attacker of note, which seems silly to me, but anyway...). That means 140 EVs go to speed. That leaves us with 252 HP/118 DEF.

With a reflect up, +1 Crunch does 567 Atk vs 235 Def & 324 HP (80 Base Power): 210 - 248 (64.81% - 76.54%)
Even if you want to drop speed down to the bare minimum required to outspeed CAP9, that gives Starmie only around 5% more damage protection. Still not enough.
Starmie isn't doing any stalling. Average damage there is 70%, which means Starmie stalls for exactly 2 turns before dying on the third. Even if Starmie attacks before it dies, unboosted Surf doesn't come anywhere near killing CAP9.
Oh, and that's assuming Crunch's defense drop doesn't mess it up earlier.

Cresselia doesn't fare nearly as well. The dual screen set in the analysis can't outspeed CAP9 and takes nearly 80% on the first hit, obviously dying on the second with or without reflect.

But all of that is really irrelevant, because it has more to do with Guts than it does Sucker Punch. Reflect Starmie can set up (or try to, anyway) on any CAP9 without Sucker Punch just as effectively as it can on a CAP9 with sucker punch. The difference is, offensive LO starmie will not be able to kill a CAP9 with sucker punch nearly as effectively as it can a CAP9 that does not have sucker punch.

Thus far, the only legitimate argument I can see against the strengths of sucker punch (and only sucker punch, not Guts-sweepers in general) is that it causes a loss of coverage. But I believe that the ability to kill Rotom-A, Latias, Starmie, and offensive non-Sub Celebi is well worth it. Not only that, but see what happens when a popular revenge killer tries to end a weakened CAP9:

Versus 0/4 Flygon: 567 Atk vs 196 Def & 301 HP (80 Base Power): 247 - 292 (82.06% - 97.01%)

Scarf Heracross, who would love to switch in on your resisted primary STABs and end you with Close Combat, will look on in horror as you hit them with a resisted Sucker Punch immediately after they come in and still kill them (does 49-57%).

This is already pretty long winded, so let me just summarize. Sucker Punch gives our CAP a form of priority that makes revenge killing it with some of the most common Pokemon in OU (Scarf Rotom-A, Latias, Starmie, Flygon) extremely dangerous. This in turn incentivizes a reliance by these Pokemon on secondary moves (Trick, Reflect, Recover, Protect, etc) a goal that is ultimately the opposite of what we are trying to accomplish. These are my primary arguments against the pro-Sucker Punch camp.

 

[Vividsketch]

Outrage = No. It wouldn't find itself used on any of the things movesets for this reason: It 3HKOes Skarm if CAP9 is holding a Choice Band and has Guts activated. Skarm will happily set up Spikes while losing around 27% to Outrage. Outrage goes against the concept of this CAP by making it easy for Skarm to set up Spikes.
Seed Bomb = No. What's this going to be used on? Bulky Waters? They're all 2HKOed by Earthquake.

I'm not going to bother pointing out why I feel your argument for each of these moves is heavily flawed, but rather I'll make the point (in general) that if you think a move is underpowered or not valuable, then what is the harm in allowing it?? For instance, just because Splash is useless doesn't mean it should be excluded from Gyarados' move pool. Move Pool Submitters have the sense to omit useless moves if they don't feel they ahve any value or flavor relevance. But don't restrict their creative liscense unnecessarally.


Also I'd like to reiterate what I touched on in the last thread that was shut down. In the interest of the CAP's concept I think that moves with high percentage secondary effects should be DISALLOWED. Examples: Body Slam, Lava Plume, Rock Slide, Poison Jab even Dark Pulse ect ect..... Any 'COMPETITIVE' moves with a secondary effect of 20% or higher I think should fall into this catergory. I'm not refering to stat dropping/raising or critical hit ratios how ever.

 

[armogohma]

While I do not oppose megahorn, as it is great for taking care of Celebi and similar threats, I am curious if it is strong enough to take Breloom off the counters list. As I have detailed before, I believe that having Breloom counter CAP9 would be beneficial to our aims, but if we need to counter Celebi...