Outrage? Outrage doesn't serve any competitive valve to CAP9. Aqua Tail does however hold some competitive valve, but I'm iffy about it. For this CAP, I support nearly every Fire move while oppose nearly every Ice, Grass, Water, and Electric move not named Hidden Power. I say nearly because I do support Hydro Pump and Ice Fang.
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CAP 9 CAP 9 - Part 13a - Attacking Moves Discussion
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Gunk Shot
Most of the moves I'm for have been listed several times (Fangs, Bounce, Hydro Pump, etc..), and I pretty much agree with them. However, with Gunk Shot it will allow CAP 9 to deal with Celebi, without making it too powerful with something like Fire Blast (still walled by skarmory). I don't think it should get any other fire move outside of Fire Fang.
Also opposed to:
- Any Grass move
- Any other Water move
- Any other Fire move
- U-Turn
Most of the moves I'm for have been listed several times (Fangs, Bounce, Hydro Pump, etc..), and I pretty much agree with them. However, with Gunk Shot it will allow CAP 9 to deal with Celebi, without making it too powerful with something like Fire Blast (still walled by skarmory). I don't think it should get any other fire move outside of Fire Fang.
Also opposed to:
- Any Grass move
- Any other Water move
- Any other Fire move
- U-Turn
Since this thing now has Guts as an ability, we should by default be wary of giving CAP9 any coverage moves with more than 100 base power, especially if they have little in the way of drawbacks. Given this thing's high HP stat and decent speed, defence/special defence drops and loss of health from recoil do not count as drawbacks, whereas attack/speed reductions do. Therefore, at first glance I don't see much problem with Fire Punch, Fire Fang, ThunderPunch, Thunder Fang, Ice Punch, Ice Fang, Drill Peck, Aerial Ace, Hammer Arm, Seed Bomb or Superpower but I will object to Close Combat, Volt Tackle, Flare Blitz, Power Whip, Wood Hammer and Brave Bird.
EDIT: The Swampert argument for banning Seed Bomb is moot because a Guts boosted EQ is an almost guaranteed 2HKO without Stealth Rock.
EDIT: The Swampert argument for banning Seed Bomb is moot because a Guts boosted EQ is an almost guaranteed 2HKO without Stealth Rock.
I think this thing should get selfdestruct, but not explosion. (like wailord) I think that guts/cb selfdestruct would be able to put a serious dent in many of it's checks, but not KO them. It also means Skarmory gets a nice switchin. U-turn should not be allowed. I also think that seed bomb would be broken, as it would wipe out swampert. Although I do like th idea of gunk shot.
I am opposed to Seed Bomb, Fire Blast, and Overheat. We wanted to include swampert as a potential check for this thing. Seed Bomb will completely RUIN swampert and make every bulky water think twice about switching in. We want this to be a 'Stop the secondary', and Seed Bomb falls well out of that league. Fire Blast and Overheat should also be left out. With some investment, it can easily 2HKO skarm with blast and even without investment, it can always outspeed and OHKO Scizor (unless Scizor is scarfed). If that is the case, how can we even consider Skarm and Scizor as potential 'responses' to CAP9?
I feel that U-Turn should be alowed. It's a great move for scouting switches, and it manages to hit a lot of Secondary users for SE in the process.
I feel that U-Turn should be alowed. It's a great move for scouting switches, and it manages to hit a lot of Secondary users for SE in the process.
U-turn is a terrible move here conceptually.
How does CAP9 stop the secondary if one of its attacks is just a glorified switch? That is nonsensical. U-turn goes completely against the concept, doing nothing but giving most secondary users not named Celebi an excuse to stay in, predicting a pathetic 70 Base power unSTAB move.
U-turn does increase the value of AMC somewhat, but honestly, scouting moves are entirely out of place on a pokemon designed to thwart secondary effects.
How does CAP9 stop the secondary if one of its attacks is just a glorified switch? That is nonsensical. U-turn goes completely against the concept, doing nothing but giving most secondary users not named Celebi an excuse to stay in, predicting a pathetic 70 Base power unSTAB move.
U-turn does increase the value of AMC somewhat, but honestly, scouting moves are entirely out of place on a pokemon designed to thwart secondary effects.
Personally I say let CAP9 have the ability to roast those two bastards. We still have Suicune, Gliscor, Swampert, Gyarados, and Salamence to counter/check CAP9.
This from someone who supports Sucker Punch, a move that goes directly against the concept. Anyway, I don't see CAP9 using many high recoil moves like Brave Bird much, as most everyone assumes that CAP9 will have Guts activated all the time, so 12% from Burn + 20~% from recoil means we have 3 turns to live after SR. Now CAP9 is useless. These recoil moves are ridiculously overrated. Flavor arguments are null here. Also with Close Combat, I don't see anyone using it over EQ, as the only things CC hits harder are Grass types and Flying types/ Levitators. Even then, Flying resists CC, and most pokemon with Levitate resist Fighting (Azelf, Gengar, Rotom, Latias) and are hit SE by Dark. Even then, this is basically just making a banlist for moves, we're not creating the moveset yet. Not all the moves that are allowed will be on CAP9, many of which because it just seems outrageous (Brave Bird, Flare Blitz).
Actually, I don't think U-Turn goes against the concept at all. It works nicely for both the abilities and allows CAP9 to also play the role of a pivot if necessary.
I can see two scenarios where it can prove incredibly useful:
I can see two scenarios where it can prove incredibly useful:
- If you're using AMC: Switch in, activating the AMC. Attack if you expect them to stay in, U-Turn or Pursuit if you expect a switch to a counter.
- If you're using Guts: Switch in safely (either into a twave or any status move after you've already activated flame orb). If you can manage this, the opponent generally has no choice but to switch out or eat a high powered, fast move. And the speed will come into play here if it allows you to outspeed your opponent. If you can outspeed, then whether they stay in or switch, you'll have a chance to switch a counter.
I'm not sure if I'm liking Brave Bird and Outrage, which I will explain why below.
Brave Bird: Brave Bird on CAP9 will be a relatively risky move. With it having Guts as an ability and absorbing status such as Will-O-Wisp or Toxic, the amount of health CAP9 will be draining is pretty bad. For example, if CAP9 uses Brave Bird against Breloom, it will probably be taking away at least 30% - 40% of its health, and with burn adding an additional 12%, that's nearly 50% of its health taken away. Also, who said Breloom will stay in on a suspected Brave Bird? The opponent can just as easily switch in something like Gyarados, making CAP9 waste HP while not doing much to the switch-in, in this case, Gyarados. Finally, Brave Bird has no STAB, so if it's used against something that does not take super effective damage by it, it's not going to be doing much, while it will be taking chunks of its health in return.
Outrage: I don't really see the point in giving this Outrage. Outrage is only super effective against Dragon-types, but honestly, why would CAP9 use it? Latias is dealt with Crunch, while Kingdra, Salamence, and Dragonite are dealt by its STABs. Here are some calculations:
Standard Kingdra taking Jolly 252 Atk Guts Earthquake: 84.25% - 98.97% - 74% chance to OHKO with Stealth Rock in play.
Standard Dragonite taking Jolly 252 Atk Guts Crunch: 60.19% - 71.30% - a near OHKO with Stealth Rock in play, but with sandstorm support, it has a greater chance to OHKO.
Standard Salamence taking Jolly 252 Atk Guts Crunch: 68.07% - 80.42% - near OHKO with Stealth Rock in play.
-------------------------------------------------Intimidate: 45.48% - 53.61% - 2HKO
Mence is taking a hefty amount of damage either way.
As you can see, many of the Dragons will be hit very hard regardless of Outrage by CAP9's STAB attacks. There's no need for it, and it's a waste since it doesn't even receive STAB as well, not to mention that being locked into an unSTABed attack that confuses you while taking burn damage calls for trouble.
Brave Bird: Brave Bird on CAP9 will be a relatively risky move. With it having Guts as an ability and absorbing status such as Will-O-Wisp or Toxic, the amount of health CAP9 will be draining is pretty bad. For example, if CAP9 uses Brave Bird against Breloom, it will probably be taking away at least 30% - 40% of its health, and with burn adding an additional 12%, that's nearly 50% of its health taken away. Also, who said Breloom will stay in on a suspected Brave Bird? The opponent can just as easily switch in something like Gyarados, making CAP9 waste HP while not doing much to the switch-in, in this case, Gyarados. Finally, Brave Bird has no STAB, so if it's used against something that does not take super effective damage by it, it's not going to be doing much, while it will be taking chunks of its health in return.
Outrage: I don't really see the point in giving this Outrage. Outrage is only super effective against Dragon-types, but honestly, why would CAP9 use it? Latias is dealt with Crunch, while Kingdra, Salamence, and Dragonite are dealt by its STABs. Here are some calculations:
Standard Kingdra taking Jolly 252 Atk Guts Earthquake: 84.25% - 98.97% - 74% chance to OHKO with Stealth Rock in play.
Standard Dragonite taking Jolly 252 Atk Guts Crunch: 60.19% - 71.30% - a near OHKO with Stealth Rock in play, but with sandstorm support, it has a greater chance to OHKO.
Standard Salamence taking Jolly 252 Atk Guts Crunch: 68.07% - 80.42% - near OHKO with Stealth Rock in play.
-------------------------------------------------Intimidate: 45.48% - 53.61% - 2HKO
Mence is taking a hefty amount of damage either way.
As you can see, many of the Dragons will be hit very hard regardless of Outrage by CAP9's STAB attacks. There's no need for it, and it's a waste since it doesn't even receive STAB as well, not to mention that being locked into an unSTABed attack that confuses you while taking burn damage calls for trouble.
I'd like to oppose Close Combat and all the high powered recoil moves
CAP9 can't stop the secondary if it doesn't have much durability, which these moves significantly. Yes, I know I'm the one that suggested Explosion and Self-Destruct, but they're there just in case CAP9 is going to die anyway (at least the latter is).
As you know, Close Combat reduces both Defense and Special Defense by a stage each. CAP9 isn't the fastest Pokemon in the world, but it isn't slow enough to always expect a hit before dishing out the CC, especially since it's accumulating slower checks and counters. With that in mind, lets see how well DK's Specially Defensive CAP9 with CC does against a Curselax, assuming it managed to get down a Curse on the switch (yes, there are people that are unaware of random CCs)
DK's Physically Defensive CAP9's CC vs. Curselax w/ 1 Curse down: 40.16% - 47.32%
Now let's see how much damage it receives from a STAB Body Slam in retaliation to the CC.
Curselax's Body Slam w/ 1 Curse down vs. DK's Physically Defensive CAP9
(first CC): 45.73% - 54.04%
(second CC): 60.97% - 72.06%
Congratulations, you've now crippled your own CAP9, assuming it doesn't get a recovery move, whereas your opponent can swap his/her Curselax to something that can put it out of its misery.
As for the high-powered recoil moves, see Fuzznip's post on Brave Bird, since it states their problems perfectly
CAP9 can't stop the secondary if it doesn't have much durability, which these moves significantly. Yes, I know I'm the one that suggested Explosion and Self-Destruct, but they're there just in case CAP9 is going to die anyway (at least the latter is).
As you know, Close Combat reduces both Defense and Special Defense by a stage each. CAP9 isn't the fastest Pokemon in the world, but it isn't slow enough to always expect a hit before dishing out the CC, especially since it's accumulating slower checks and counters. With that in mind, lets see how well DK's Specially Defensive CAP9 with CC does against a Curselax, assuming it managed to get down a Curse on the switch (yes, there are people that are unaware of random CCs)
DK's Physically Defensive CAP9's CC vs. Curselax w/ 1 Curse down: 40.16% - 47.32%
Now let's see how much damage it receives from a STAB Body Slam in retaliation to the CC.
Curselax's Body Slam w/ 1 Curse down vs. DK's Physically Defensive CAP9
(first CC): 45.73% - 54.04%
(second CC): 60.97% - 72.06%
Congratulations, you've now crippled your own CAP9, assuming it doesn't get a recovery move, whereas your opponent can swap his/her Curselax to something that can put it out of its misery.
As for the high-powered recoil moves, see Fuzznip's post on Brave Bird, since it states their problems perfectly
U-turn should be allowed since early game, it'll give you the advantage when your opponent switches in a CAP9 counter giving you basically a free switch of your own. It also works well with AMC but we all seem to be assuming that the only set CAP9 will run is a Flame Orb Guts sweeper. Secondly, we won't actually be using U-turn when CAP9 is in against a secondary user or has an advantageous matchup. It's great for scouting, giving the user momentum and thwarting CAP9 counters, so the only argument I can see is flavor lol.
I've been iffy about Fire Blast right from the beginning but seeing as everyone feels we need an attack to deal with Skarm and it doesn't serve much of a purpose other than that, I suppose its OK. I'm still opposing Overheat though, although the attack itself is inferior to FB.
Supporting Hydro Pump as it's hardly broken coming from that less-than-stellar SpA and it's kind of apt, seeing that CAP9 is a narwhal. Outrage may look useless but it deals with Salamence especially when you're using AMC over Guts.
Sucker Punch might actually convince opponents to use secondary moves as people have been saying, but the fact remains that if you're using CAP9 as a plain sweeper (Guts), it remains a strong Dark STAB priority attack. When you're through with stopping the secondary, it becomes a very good attack to use. Even if you're not using him primarily as a sweeper, you might face a situation where CAP9 is worn down, and you need the speed of SP to finish off a faster Pokemon, say +1 DD-mence or Gengar. Plus, Taunt (which CAP9 will probably get) + SP makes a good combo.
I've been iffy about Fire Blast right from the beginning but seeing as everyone feels we need an attack to deal with Skarm and it doesn't serve much of a purpose other than that, I suppose its OK. I'm still opposing Overheat though, although the attack itself is inferior to FB.
Supporting Hydro Pump as it's hardly broken coming from that less-than-stellar SpA and it's kind of apt, seeing that CAP9 is a narwhal. Outrage may look useless but it deals with Salamence especially when you're using AMC over Guts.
Sucker Punch might actually convince opponents to use secondary moves as people have been saying, but the fact remains that if you're using CAP9 as a plain sweeper (Guts), it remains a strong Dark STAB priority attack. When you're through with stopping the secondary, it becomes a very good attack to use. Even if you're not using him primarily as a sweeper, you might face a situation where CAP9 is worn down, and you need the speed of SP to finish off a faster Pokemon, say +1 DD-mence or Gengar. Plus, Taunt (which CAP9 will probably get) + SP makes a good combo.
Sucker Punch would be a valuble move here. As well as Megahorn.
No. Sucker Punch goes against the concept by encouraging people to use secondary moves, and Sucker Punch+Taunt is not something you'd use on a Pokemon that will probably suffer from 4-moveslot syndrome. If I have a Pokemon with Substitute, it can play games with CAP9. Then, if it guesses a Sucker Punch and uses Sub, it can now set up. Same goes with entry hazards.
I am opposed to Spark, but not Thunder Fang. Spark has a 30% chance of paralyzing. This, combined with 95 base Speed, makes CAP9 pretty hard to stop. If CAP9 gets Waterfall it can sort of pull of being a paraflincher, leaving you about a 60% chance of attacking.Thunder Fang only has a 10% chance of paralyzing and 10% chance of flinching. I can deal with those.
That's exactly what I said, Sucker Punch does encourage people to use secondary moves but it should be used on sets where CAP9 functions only as a sweeper. Those who want to go fully offensive with CAP9 to utilise that good Base 122 Attack stat will see that SP is good because it has priority and is equal in power to its strongest Dark STAB. There are so many things faster (Starmie, Latias, Azelf, Gengar, a potentially faster Celebi, etc.) which get hit hard with Sucker Punch. Admittedly, I don't think I'd usually use Taunt + SP, but even without Taunt, SP is a good attack on its own, helping to overcome CAP9's somewhat average speed.
Secondly, although I'm not bothered whether Spark is selected or not, I don't see it as being broken at all. It has pathetic power, doesn't even receive STAB so why would you use it with so many better options available? That paralysis chance is unreliable to say the least and what would it paralyze that's of consequence? Also, you don't need a Base Speed of 95 to outrun something that's paralyzed. I wouldn't say that with Spark itself, CAP9 becomes "hard to stop". That said, I feel that CAP9 shouldn't be given Waterfall.
What a load. When we get the Non-Attacking moves discussion we might as well ban every non-attacking move except Taunt on the basis they just allow an opponent to set up Substitute, and since they aren't actively "stopping the secondary" that they just lead to 4MSS. U-turn is entirely worthless conceptually. What exactly is it going to damage aside from Celebi and maybe Latias that would not retain a Substitute even afterward, and then just set up from there. It basically says "I'm switching in to eat hazard damage so I can pivot to something else that will take hazard damage."
Sucker Punch on the other hand has a lot of synergy with Rapid Spin and Taunt. Taunt stops secondary and requires the opponent to attack, meaning they'll either take a hit or switch. Rapid Spin can remove hazards an opponent lays down should they be faster and waste their turn on that, or even if they are slower, since they could fear some other attack. The argument "there won't be room" with these combos is specious. given SP is a STAB, and therefore never a waste of a slot. Taunt + Sucker Punch implicitly forces secondary users to make a choice whether they will flee and try to set up later or attack in the knowledge they may be walking into a KO that will eliminate them from setting up permanently.
U-turn on the other hand is a scouting move. It implies that you're just looking for pittance damage to gain an offensive advantage against whatever, and opponents will use the extreme tendency to scout rather than KO to set up their strategy in your face. It's been far more often than once where I've just set up on a scout, even if I were weak to one of its STAB attacks, because I know early-game, a scout will let me do whatever I damn well please because they always use U-turn, hoping I'll switch out of a threat.
Just want to wiegh in on the current 'Pending' and 'Controversial' move lists, as they are the once that need to be address most readily.
Pending:
Aqua Tail - This is just a good general coverage move. Nothing really extraordinary about it. Both Tyranitar and Rhyperior have it, and wth much higher attcck scores, and they don't exactly break the game with it. - Allowed
Brave Bird - High base power of 120 and coverage on Grass, Fighting and Bug types, give alot of potenial viable checks more trouble then they deserve. 1/3 recoil on a pokemon witha a base HP of 133, is hardly diterant vs the benifits. Drill Peck and/or Aerial Ace or adequate enough. - Disallowed
Outrage - This is a terrible coverage move. 120 base power, you're better off with Earthquake or Crunch. Not to mention the negative side effect. Only Salamence and maybe Flygon even care. Use an Ice move or Stone Edge for coverage for goodness sake. No big deal. Allowed
Zen Headbutt - I see nothing exception either way about this move aside from the issue of the 20% flinch rate. I'm not concerned it will breaking in any respect, buy only that it conflicts with the 'Stop the secondary' concept. But I've yet to see the rest of the comminuty wiegh in on this. So for the moment, remain - Pending
Ice Fang - Again this is just a general coverage move. At base 65, only dragons take any more significant damage than either Earthquake or Crunch or going to do. This isn't scary. Allowed
Sucker Punch - People are making a much bigger deal out of this then it really is. It carries tha same base power as Crunch. Yes it is a priority move, but that's all it is. And it comes with it's own abbusable negative side effect. CAP9 is already relitavely fast with a base 95 Speed, so the only things that are really appose by it are pokemon like Azelf, Gangar and Latias. Who, aside from when the are revenge killing, have no business in against a sturdy Dark type in the first place. They all happen to be Trick abbusing as well in many cases. So let them suffer and eat a Crunch, Sucker Punch, or Pursuit!! Triple threat as it should be. Sucker Punch also goes a long way in leveling the playing field in against Celebi, a serial seconday user, who often has the potentiol to run greater speed than CAP9 as well as lay the smack down with a super effective Grass Knot. - Allowed
Controversial:
Thunder Fang - This falls in the same category as Ice Fang or Fire Fang to me. Low base power coverage and nothing more. Gyarados is the onltt pokemon that it really adversly effected at all. I know Gyarados is meant to be a solid check for CAP9, and it still will be any time Thunder Fang is absent. Which will be alot of the time. CAP9 only has four moves slots, and has better things to do than worry about Gyarados all the time. - Allowed
Close Combat - Considaring that Earthquake already covers alot of the ground that this does, it's not really doing that much harm having it included. That said I'd rather leave Super Power to do this job, while dampening the possibilty for it to open up a Guts power sweep. - Disallowed
Ice Punch - Simply put, leave Ice Fang in its place. The difference in base power just helps to keep CAP9 honest. - Disallowed
Spark - RE: Thunder Fang fror this. All except for it's 30% paralysis effect. Conflicts again with the projects concept in my opinion. Simply to avoid a crysis of conscience - Disallowed
Remeber when is come to coverage moves, CAP9 only has 4 moves slots to work with. It can't do everything at once, nor is it designed to. In fact it's likely to run Dual STAB and maybe one other coverage move (and support move of course). Maybe. Once the set is discovered, it will become much more manageable very quickly.
Pending:
Aqua Tail - This is just a good general coverage move. Nothing really extraordinary about it. Both Tyranitar and Rhyperior have it, and wth much higher attcck scores, and they don't exactly break the game with it. - Allowed
Brave Bird - High base power of 120 and coverage on Grass, Fighting and Bug types, give alot of potenial viable checks more trouble then they deserve. 1/3 recoil on a pokemon witha a base HP of 133, is hardly diterant vs the benifits. Drill Peck and/or Aerial Ace or adequate enough. - Disallowed
Outrage - This is a terrible coverage move. 120 base power, you're better off with Earthquake or Crunch. Not to mention the negative side effect. Only Salamence and maybe Flygon even care. Use an Ice move or Stone Edge for coverage for goodness sake. No big deal. Allowed
Zen Headbutt - I see nothing exception either way about this move aside from the issue of the 20% flinch rate. I'm not concerned it will breaking in any respect, buy only that it conflicts with the 'Stop the secondary' concept. But I've yet to see the rest of the comminuty wiegh in on this. So for the moment, remain - Pending
Ice Fang - Again this is just a general coverage move. At base 65, only dragons take any more significant damage than either Earthquake or Crunch or going to do. This isn't scary. Allowed
Sucker Punch - People are making a much bigger deal out of this then it really is. It carries tha same base power as Crunch. Yes it is a priority move, but that's all it is. And it comes with it's own abbusable negative side effect. CAP9 is already relitavely fast with a base 95 Speed, so the only things that are really appose by it are pokemon like Azelf, Gangar and Latias. Who, aside from when the are revenge killing, have no business in against a sturdy Dark type in the first place. They all happen to be Trick abbusing as well in many cases. So let them suffer and eat a Crunch, Sucker Punch, or Pursuit!! Triple threat as it should be. Sucker Punch also goes a long way in leveling the playing field in against Celebi, a serial seconday user, who often has the potentiol to run greater speed than CAP9 as well as lay the smack down with a super effective Grass Knot. - Allowed
Controversial:
Thunder Fang - This falls in the same category as Ice Fang or Fire Fang to me. Low base power coverage and nothing more. Gyarados is the onltt pokemon that it really adversly effected at all. I know Gyarados is meant to be a solid check for CAP9, and it still will be any time Thunder Fang is absent. Which will be alot of the time. CAP9 only has four moves slots, and has better things to do than worry about Gyarados all the time. - Allowed
Close Combat - Considaring that Earthquake already covers alot of the ground that this does, it's not really doing that much harm having it included. That said I'd rather leave Super Power to do this job, while dampening the possibilty for it to open up a Guts power sweep. - Disallowed
Ice Punch - Simply put, leave Ice Fang in its place. The difference in base power just helps to keep CAP9 honest. - Disallowed
Spark - RE: Thunder Fang fror this. All except for it's 30% paralysis effect. Conflicts again with the projects concept in my opinion. Simply to avoid a crysis of conscience - Disallowed
Remeber when is come to coverage moves, CAP9 only has 4 moves slots to work with. It can't do everything at once, nor is it designed to. In fact it's likely to run Dual STAB and maybe one other coverage move (and support move of course). Maybe. Once the set is discovered, it will become much more manageable very quickly.
Because you will use Gunk Shot instead of Crunch on Celebi, right?
To people who oppose tutor moves (like Outrage): you cannot really talk about "waste of a moveslot", as you cannot about any TM move. They do not actually take space on the movepools, since there's no limit to the amount of tutor moves a Pokémon can learn. While a move like Close Combat can be opposed for such reasons, moves like Outrage or Seed Bomb should be disallowed only if you find them broken. And I fail to see how Outrage would be broken on CAP9. Outrage should definitely be Allowed.
ALL moves should only be disallowed if they're broken. Let me re-iterate that we are NOT making the movepool that will be used on CAP9, we are outling which moves should be excluded from all possible movepools because they are TOO GOOD. Please, please don't say a move should be disallowed because CAP9 would never use it, or would not benefit from it. Those are arguments for that move to be allowed.
As far as my quibble with Deck Knight, I'm sorry I took a shot at you. You're completely entitled to your opinion. I just didn't see how U-Turn detracted from the concept any more than Sucker Punch. As far as disallowing U-Turn, there really is no reason to. If CAP9 never uses it, that's fine. But it won't break CAP9, so it should be allowed.
Selfdestruct, Fire Blast, or U-turn should be not be allowed.
In my opinion they make this guy too good. Lets give him some decent counters by ensuring that he has low base power / conditional moves on the special side!
I would also like CAP 9 to have no real chance of getting past Skarm by using a special attack. I think that it should have about the same chance as a Metagross of beating it, ie it could use thunderpunch or something but will still have to rely on a crit to kill it. Overheat is not on the list because it doesn't actually 2hko Skarm.
Selfdestruct is too good herethe thing doesn't really have to worry about ghosts switching in, and EQ discourages steels, so he will usually be using to destroy something that usually counters him. Destroying your own counters, even at the expense of yourself, is generally uber-status stuff.
Uturn is another move that would imo take CAP 9 over the top. We all know how good it is. Its so good that it makes Flygon usable! What would it do for something that is actually good to begin with? Yeah, it would make it amazing.
In my opinion they make this guy too good. Lets give him some decent counters by ensuring that he has low base power / conditional moves on the special side!
I would also like CAP 9 to have no real chance of getting past Skarm by using a special attack. I think that it should have about the same chance as a Metagross of beating it, ie it could use thunderpunch or something but will still have to rely on a crit to kill it. Overheat is not on the list because it doesn't actually 2hko Skarm.
Selfdestruct is too good herethe thing doesn't really have to worry about ghosts switching in, and EQ discourages steels, so he will usually be using to destroy something that usually counters him. Destroying your own counters, even at the expense of yourself, is generally uber-status stuff.
Uturn is another move that would imo take CAP 9 over the top. We all know how good it is. Its so good that it makes Flygon usable! What would it do for something that is actually good to begin with? Yeah, it would make it amazing.
Almost every top tier OU Pokemon can run a set that destroys or cripples its counters, Salamance is a prime example. Even if it CAN use the move, if the community deems it broken, they wont accept the movepool with it in, or they wont make a movepool with it in.
Out of all the Pokemon which learn U-Turn, most of them have more important things to be doing than using U-Turn, imo. CAP9 will already suffer from 4 moveslot syndrome, allowing U-Turn isnt gonna change that.
Raj
CAP Playtesting Expert
I do not see any reason to give this CaP Overheat, Hydro Pump, or Fire Blast.. none of them really "fit" this guy. I would rather we opt for Drill Peck over Brave Bird for the reason that our Mon is not a bird, but rather a drill Pokemon. Brave Bird just seems really extraneous, while Drill Peck makes sense. I don't think it would be broken by any chance, but why give it something to abuse that it doesn't require?
I'd also like to suggest allowing Ice Shard. This thing isn't really fast and could use a weak move to take our faster foes. 40 BP is hardly powerful and only has its uses in certain circumstances. There's little room for taking advantage of it. It would be like the occasionally seen Vacuum Wave on Stratagem.
I'd also like to suggest allowing Ice Shard. This thing isn't really fast and could use a weak move to take our faster foes. 40 BP is hardly powerful and only has its uses in certain circumstances. There's little room for taking advantage of it. It would be like the occasionally seen Vacuum Wave on Stratagem.
I am iffy about Outrage. I suppose we can allow it, but I will garuntee you it will not be used much. When you think about it, what pokemon use Outrage? Salamence, Dragonite, Kindra, etc... What do they have in common? They all get STAB on it. But other pokemon get Outrage too, like Tyranitar. Those others just don't use it since you're not raking up serious damage without STAB in a metagame filled with Steels. Face it, without STAB, Outrage is more of a disadvantage than an advantage. You're giving things 2-3 turns of set-up (against the concept), you're not really damaging anything and you're STABs will always outpower it.
However, Aqua Tail should be Allowed. Aqua Tail will have it's uses, but it will never be a main option so Hippowdon still has a chance (think Tyranitar [again]). Aqua Tail has power, but it's not over the top since the STABs will usually do more.
However, Aqua Tail should be Allowed. Aqua Tail will have it's uses, but it will never be a main option so Hippowdon still has a chance (think Tyranitar [again]). Aqua Tail has power, but it's not over the top since the STABs will usually do more.
Deck Knight, I don't think your argument is valid. You're essentially saying "If CAP9 gets u-turn it'll always just use u-turn instead of attacking".
If you read my (and others) posts, you'd see that u-turn would only be situationally useful, since the majority of the time you'd just want to use Pursuit against a secondary user. For instance, if you switch in against a Rotom and grab its WoW for a Guts boost, you're going to want to use Pursuit, because it really doesn't matter whether the Rotom switches or stays in. On the other hand, if you switch in on a Bronzong and bounce its Hypnosis back at it, there's really no point in pursuiting it because it'll still do meh-ish damage, especially if it decides to stay in. You might as well use u-turn and switch to counter whatever Pokemon they bring in next or, if they keep Bronzong in, switch to something that can set up using the free turn. That's when u-turn has value.
Also, your arguments regarding sucker punch seem contradictory. Earlier you stated that Sucker Punch would be a waste of a moveslot on offensive CAP9, now you say it's never a waste of a moveslot.
Taunt/Sucker Punch is definitely a waste though. It plays no mindgames that Taunt/Crunch doesn't already play against secondary users, most of which will be slower than CAP9. Sucker Punch is not really broken against secondary users. But what breaks Sucker Punch is its possible usage against offensive Pokemon. Instead of using primary attacking moves (which we want) these Pokemon will be encouraged to use Trick or Recover or any other secondary move (including Taunt, on some!). That's the opposite of what we want.
If you read my (and others) posts, you'd see that u-turn would only be situationally useful, since the majority of the time you'd just want to use Pursuit against a secondary user. For instance, if you switch in against a Rotom and grab its WoW for a Guts boost, you're going to want to use Pursuit, because it really doesn't matter whether the Rotom switches or stays in. On the other hand, if you switch in on a Bronzong and bounce its Hypnosis back at it, there's really no point in pursuiting it because it'll still do meh-ish damage, especially if it decides to stay in. You might as well use u-turn and switch to counter whatever Pokemon they bring in next or, if they keep Bronzong in, switch to something that can set up using the free turn. That's when u-turn has value.
Also, your arguments regarding sucker punch seem contradictory. Earlier you stated that Sucker Punch would be a waste of a moveslot on offensive CAP9, now you say it's never a waste of a moveslot.
Taunt/Sucker Punch is definitely a waste though. It plays no mindgames that Taunt/Crunch doesn't already play against secondary users, most of which will be slower than CAP9. Sucker Punch is not really broken against secondary users. But what breaks Sucker Punch is its possible usage against offensive Pokemon. Instead of using primary attacking moves (which we want) these Pokemon will be encouraged to use Trick or Recover or any other secondary move (including Taunt, on some!). That's the opposite of what we want.
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