Eh, even if so, the shaky accuracy makes it a hardly dependable way of defeating Breloom. Plus, the same argument would have to go for Superpower/Close Combat as well then, as they hit Breloom for the same strength.
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CAP 9 CAP 9 - Part 13a - Attacking Moves Discussion
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Actually, I think I have another idea for an attack, Explosion, just in case CAP9 is too low on health to do too much else. With Guts activated and a Life Orb carried, it deals 90.00% - 105.95% to the standard Physical Wall Hippowdon, which is enough to guarantee a OHKO provided that rocks are up.
Too powerful? Self Destruct is also an option here
Too powerful? Self Destruct is also an option here
I belive that elemental moves (grass, water, fire, lightning ect) should be disallowed from the Allowed list due to the fact that they allow this pokemon to 2 or 1HKO many of it's viable counters.
However, the reduced 65 atk of the elemental fangs, while it not seem like much, prevent it from doing significant damage to most counters, and provide decent type coverage. (see the damage calculations by hydrolphin on the previous page) (as I side note, I cannot see a burrowing narwhal using any other elemental attacks besides the fangs anyway)
Also, I support Self Destruct as a Allowed move, but Explosion as dissalowed, because while SD will provide a good choice and a good ability, Explosion would be overpowered, and able to take down most walls. (see previous post by Admiral Stalfos) And while people might argue CaP9 should be able to take down Physical walls, I belive that it should be able to check physical walls, and allow room for certain responces. (Skarm, Suicune ect...)
However, the reduced 65 atk of the elemental fangs, while it not seem like much, prevent it from doing significant damage to most counters, and provide decent type coverage. (see the damage calculations by hydrolphin on the previous page) (as I side note, I cannot see a burrowing narwhal using any other elemental attacks besides the fangs anyway)
Also, I support Self Destruct as a Allowed move, but Explosion as dissalowed, because while SD will provide a good choice and a good ability, Explosion would be overpowered, and able to take down most walls. (see previous post by Admiral Stalfos) And while people might argue CaP9 should be able to take down Physical walls, I belive that it should be able to check physical walls, and allow room for certain responces. (Skarm, Suicune ect...)
Drill Peck
I've been pushing this for a little while now. The main reason being that it damages grass, fighting, and bug, three things that this cap is worried about.
With medum power, no recoil, and the fact that it just plain makes more sense than Brave bird, Drill peck seems like it would be a utility rather than brave bird, which could potentially become a standard moveset staple.
(I'm worried that brave bird could end up making this CAP little more than a glorified (bulky) sweeper).
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Megahorn Also seems like a good option, as it scares off, Psychics, Grass, and other dark types realitively well.
I've been pushing this for a little while now. The main reason being that it damages grass, fighting, and bug, three things that this cap is worried about.
With medum power, no recoil, and the fact that it just plain makes more sense than Brave bird, Drill peck seems like it would be a utility rather than brave bird, which could potentially become a standard moveset staple.
(I'm worried that brave bird could end up making this CAP little more than a glorified (bulky) sweeper).
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Megahorn Also seems like a good option, as it scares off, Psychics, Grass, and other dark types realitively well.
This is similar to the reasoning I applied when suggesting Aerial Ace. Dugtrio already gets Aerial Ace, so there is some precedent for seeing it on a ground type, but Drill Peck is fine too. I would very much support at least one of these making it onto the list.
I've been thinking about U-Turn, although I'm not quite sure whether it should be Allowed or not.
On the pro-side of my thinking, U-Turn would play its usual role as the best scouting move in the game, allowing you to check for your opponent's primary response to CaP while doing some damage. While it's NVE against some of the more prominent switch-ins like Skarmory, Gliscor, Salamence, and Gyarados, it does allow CaP to get off the battlefield without giving the opponent a free set-up turn. It is still SE against the likes of Latias, Starmie, and Offensive Celebi who will really regret coming in at that point for nothing, so it can be especially useful on offensive Band/Scarf/Guts sets that can tend to be be taken advantage of quite easily. Type coverage is incredibly redundant with Dark attacks, although the utility is much higher, so 4-slot syndrome will come into play to keep CaP balanced. It can also be argued that it isn't overpowered, as even a max Attack, Guts-boosted CaP U-Turn is still less powerful than the standard CB Scizor's.
On the con-side of my thinking, it could push CaP over the edge in terms of offensive use, potentially turning the most successful CaPs into Choice/Guts scouts like Scizor. U-Turn is an incredibly valuable move and allows Guts CaP to get off the battlefield without taking crucial Burn/Poison damage that turn, which means CaP will largely be an annoying son of a bitch to take down. It probably wouldn't be broken, but it it would still most likely be a spamfest with noob-sauce, which would suck.
Some other opinions on the matter would help sway my opinion in a constructive direction.
On the pro-side of my thinking, U-Turn would play its usual role as the best scouting move in the game, allowing you to check for your opponent's primary response to CaP while doing some damage. While it's NVE against some of the more prominent switch-ins like Skarmory, Gliscor, Salamence, and Gyarados, it does allow CaP to get off the battlefield without giving the opponent a free set-up turn. It is still SE against the likes of Latias, Starmie, and Offensive Celebi who will really regret coming in at that point for nothing, so it can be especially useful on offensive Band/Scarf/Guts sets that can tend to be be taken advantage of quite easily. Type coverage is incredibly redundant with Dark attacks, although the utility is much higher, so 4-slot syndrome will come into play to keep CaP balanced. It can also be argued that it isn't overpowered, as even a max Attack, Guts-boosted CaP U-Turn is still less powerful than the standard CB Scizor's.
On the con-side of my thinking, it could push CaP over the edge in terms of offensive use, potentially turning the most successful CaPs into Choice/Guts scouts like Scizor. U-Turn is an incredibly valuable move and allows Guts CaP to get off the battlefield without taking crucial Burn/Poison damage that turn, which means CaP will largely be an annoying son of a bitch to take down. It probably wouldn't be broken, but it it would still most likely be a spamfest with noob-sauce, which would suck.
Some other opinions on the matter would help sway my opinion in a constructive direction.
Actually, I can see U-turn being much more valuable on teams that use CAP9 as a defensive pivot; the offensive set simply cannot spare the moveslot, as it already has coverage/utility problems. But it can be wonderful on a defensive set of Taunt/Pursuit/Earthquake/U-turn. This is very similar to the defensive/utility set that Gliscor runs, and our CAP pretty much outclasses it entirely with AMC/Guts, superior attack and overall defenses, access to STAB pursuit, and better STAB in general.
As an idea of how it would work: It comes in, reflects a status aimed at a sweeper and has a choice between pursuiting the fleeing statusers or u-turning to the counter of whatever they switch in. If you don't gain much from pursuiting the status user (say it's a support Jirachi or something) then u-turn would be a more viable choice. But the better value of pursuit in most situations, as well as moveslot problems preventing u-turn from being as viable in offensive sets, ensures that u-turn isn't broken.
I support U-turn.
As an idea of how it would work: It comes in, reflects a status aimed at a sweeper and has a choice between pursuiting the fleeing statusers or u-turning to the counter of whatever they switch in. If you don't gain much from pursuiting the status user (say it's a support Jirachi or something) then u-turn would be a more viable choice. But the better value of pursuit in most situations, as well as moveslot problems preventing u-turn from being as viable in offensive sets, ensures that u-turn isn't broken.
I support U-turn.
Of what we have listed so far, here are some thoughts:
Brave Bird: I think this makes CAP-9 a little too prepared to deal with certain counters, even with the recoil, with its high attack, it's a bit too obvious as a way to screen counters. However, a move like Drill Peck or Aerial Ace would be more acceptable, since (I haven't done any damage calcs or the like) it shouldn't be a major threat to a lot of those grass-types that might potentially wall CAP-9 (like Celebi or Shaymin.) Brave Bird could potentially be a 2HKO on a Choice Band set. This should either be Controversial or Not Allowed.
Focus Punch should definitely be allowed. It's an extremely common move, and would lend itself well to predicted switches (to non-ghost types) of course. Worrying about a potential Pursuit or a Focus Punch on the switch should be enough to keep whatever secondary users are out where they are. A similar argument could be made for Superpower.
Outrage is potentially too powerful a move, given CAP 9's high attack, but this could be an option, and I think it should be restricted to an Egg move.
I generally agree with the placement of the other moves for now, but those stand out for me.
Brave Bird: I think this makes CAP-9 a little too prepared to deal with certain counters, even with the recoil, with its high attack, it's a bit too obvious as a way to screen counters. However, a move like Drill Peck or Aerial Ace would be more acceptable, since (I haven't done any damage calcs or the like) it shouldn't be a major threat to a lot of those grass-types that might potentially wall CAP-9 (like Celebi or Shaymin.) Brave Bird could potentially be a 2HKO on a Choice Band set. This should either be Controversial or Not Allowed.
Focus Punch should definitely be allowed. It's an extremely common move, and would lend itself well to predicted switches (to non-ghost types) of course. Worrying about a potential Pursuit or a Focus Punch on the switch should be enough to keep whatever secondary users are out where they are. A similar argument could be made for Superpower.
Outrage is potentially too powerful a move, given CAP 9's high attack, but this could be an option, and I think it should be restricted to an Egg move.
I generally agree with the placement of the other moves for now, but those stand out for me.
Okay I think that Aqua Jet should be considered into CAP9's move pool. It give a far more reliable priority move then sucker punch, and could be used for a bit of surprise factor. I support support sucker punch and flare blitz, both as they each have good number of downsides. Flare would quickly eat at CAP9 health which I think necessary to pokemon do to it's lack luster defenses, and sucker punch if an easy PP stall as I have learned from experience. Still I love both moves and think they belong in CAP9's move pool.
Raj
CAP Playtesting Expert
I'd like to throw some support for Suckerpunch. For one, I (and believe alot of others) voted for Dark because we want a good SPer. SP isn't uncommon in grounds, and is actually present on some of the Pokemon that serve a similar offensive role (Dugtrio,Nidoking).
I'm baffled why Thunderpunch is not allowed. Flygon, Groudon, Nidoking, and Rhyperior all get it.. why not our CAP? I believe this is certainly more appropriate than Seed Bomb.
I'm baffled why Thunderpunch is not allowed. Flygon, Groudon, Nidoking, and Rhyperior all get it.. why not our CAP? I believe this is certainly more appropriate than Seed Bomb.
Just looking at the updates to the lists, and I feel I need to talk about some of the new addittions:
Overheat,and Hydro Pump on the same thing 0_o. Besides being able to tear through Skarmory, and Hippowdon, two pokemon that would normally be soild checks, the very concept of this thing breathing fire and water is beyond me.
Explosion? Don't make me laugh. CAP9 + Guts + Explosion = Pain even on Skarmory.
The way this is going, then at least 1 group of the following moves needs to be dropped completely, unless we want a MASSIVE nerf later. These moves allow CAP9 to beat all of it's counters, something we do not want, consdering it's supposed to encourage offense, and a pokemon with no counters qualifies for Uber.
Group 1: Fire moves: Pokemon effected: Skarmory, Scizor, Tangrowth, Breloom
Fire Fang, Overheat, Fire Blast
Group 2: Seed Bomb: Pokemon effected: Swampert, Suicune, Hippowdon, Gyarados (To some degree)
Group 3: Hydro Pump: Pokemon effected: Hippowdon, Gliscor
Group 4: Explosion: Pokemon effected: Everything without a x4 resist, Ghost type, or not being called Skarmory. Must NOT be included, or else this thing will be a nightmare, it takes hits, dishes them out, stops status, and Explodes when all's said and done.
*Note*: Salamance and Gyarados are unreliable responses, due to Stone Edge, but that's not going anywhere.
Between those 4 groups, all of the Responses are handled, none can safely switch in, meaning none are counters. To be a counter, something has to be a response. No response = no counter. No counter = Uber.
Seriously, we need to nerf this thing's movepool, not just for balance, but for sanity's sake too. Undergound Narwhal Explodeing, breathing Fire, Seed Bombing, and blasting Water? Uh, no.
As for Thunder Punch, Skarmory, Gyarados, Suicune, and Salamance are all adversly effected by it's addittion.
How on EARTH are people suggesting Brave Bird. Is this thing a bird? Sanity people -_-.
Focus Punch is given to more or less anything with arms, so, it's a given.
U-Turn, so we want this thing to scout as well, like Scizor? (Or, in this case, more like Swellow) Either way, U-Turn = too much, especially with everything else that's being thrown on. You'd think we were re-making Smergle with this thing and the move's it's getting.
Overheat,and Hydro Pump on the same thing 0_o. Besides being able to tear through Skarmory, and Hippowdon, two pokemon that would normally be soild checks, the very concept of this thing breathing fire and water is beyond me.
Explosion? Don't make me laugh. CAP9 + Guts + Explosion = Pain even on Skarmory.
The way this is going, then at least 1 group of the following moves needs to be dropped completely, unless we want a MASSIVE nerf later. These moves allow CAP9 to beat all of it's counters, something we do not want, consdering it's supposed to encourage offense, and a pokemon with no counters qualifies for Uber.
Group 1: Fire moves: Pokemon effected: Skarmory, Scizor, Tangrowth, Breloom
Fire Fang, Overheat, Fire Blast
Group 2: Seed Bomb: Pokemon effected: Swampert, Suicune, Hippowdon, Gyarados (To some degree)
Group 3: Hydro Pump: Pokemon effected: Hippowdon, Gliscor
Group 4: Explosion: Pokemon effected: Everything without a x4 resist, Ghost type, or not being called Skarmory. Must NOT be included, or else this thing will be a nightmare, it takes hits, dishes them out, stops status, and Explodes when all's said and done.
*Note*: Salamance and Gyarados are unreliable responses, due to Stone Edge, but that's not going anywhere.
Between those 4 groups, all of the Responses are handled, none can safely switch in, meaning none are counters. To be a counter, something has to be a response. No response = no counter. No counter = Uber.
Seriously, we need to nerf this thing's movepool, not just for balance, but for sanity's sake too. Undergound Narwhal Explodeing, breathing Fire, Seed Bombing, and blasting Water? Uh, no.
As for Thunder Punch, Skarmory, Gyarados, Suicune, and Salamance are all adversly effected by it's addittion.
How on EARTH are people suggesting Brave Bird. Is this thing a bird? Sanity people -_-.
Focus Punch is given to more or less anything with arms, so, it's a given.
U-Turn, so we want this thing to scout as well, like Scizor? (Or, in this case, more like Swellow) Either way, U-Turn = too much, especially with everything else that's being thrown on. You'd think we were re-making Smergle with this thing and the move's it's getting.
CAP9 really doesn't need Thunder Fang, as the only things it hits harder than QuakEdge are Gyarados and Skarmory. Gyarados is already raped by Stone Edge anyway, so Skarm is the only issue. However, I see no reason to disallow it, or Spark, because carrying a 65 BP move for one Pokemon is ridiculous, CAP9 can just use Taunt on Skarm. Fire Fang should be allowed because the low base power makes it a non issue to the targets of fire moves for CAP9 (Skarmory and Forretress).Probably not Fire Punch though, as then we would beat down on Skarm. I think Aqua Tail is a little much. The only things I can think of that Aqua Tail hits harder than EQ are Hippowdon and Gliscor, in which case, I would like to suggest Waterfall be used in place of Aqua Tail. It hits Hippo and Gliscor slightly harder than EQ, but no more. Also, iirc, Guts boosted EQ fell just short of a 2HKO on Hippo, so Waterfall should be sufficient. If you want something to beat those two, you can sacrifice a move slot for an 80 BP move instead of a 90 BP move. Also, it's a whale, so climbing up a waterfall shouldn't be a problem. I think Zen Headbutt is redundant with the obviously superior Drill Peck, but there's no reason to disallow it. I also see no reason to disallow Brave Bird, Close Combat, Super Power, or Outrage, as BB adds to Orb damage to CAP9, CC and Super Power are pretty redundant coverage with Ground, and Outrage is never used if it isn’t STAB. Ice Punch probably shouldn’t be disallowed, as it’s really only for Gliscor, but I’d like Gliscor to remain at least somewhat of a threat to CAP9. Ice Fang as well. Focus Punch is really only useful with Substitute, which won’t be seeing much use on this CAP. There is no reason to disallow it.
@ Raikaria: Calm down. Just because a move is "Allowed" doesn't mean it's going to be in the final movepool. Movepool submissions that cram everything from the Allowed list in them typically don't do too well in the polls because they look silly and forced. Egg groupings are another way to make sure your doomsday Uber set of Fire Blast/Hydro Pump/Seed Bomb/Explosion doesn't happen. Common sense is a third way to do that. And flavor reasonings like "CaP isn't a bird so it can't get Brave Bird" are why the first thread was taken down, so don't do that.
Regarding U-Turn again, I'm thinking it might be a little out of control with Auto-Magic Coat as an ability. It could come in on any status, any time, status the opponent, then get free damage and an advantageous switch in out of the deal. I was leaning towards, Allowed for a bit, but now I'm right back where I started.
Regarding U-Turn again, I'm thinking it might be a little out of control with Auto-Magic Coat as an ability. It could come in on any status, any time, status the opponent, then get free damage and an advantageous switch in out of the deal. I was leaning towards, Allowed for a bit, but now I'm right back where I started.
My position on moves is a little bit more nuanced.
I support the following combinations of moves:
Fire and Water Moves.
Water and Ice Moves.
But oppose these combinations:
Fire and Ice Moves:
Reason being that without Fire, Skarmory and Bronzong can screw around with you fairly well, and with Ice, Dragons cause you more trouble than they otherwise warrant, especially Salamence and oddly enough, Latias. Water hits Bulky Grounds fairly well, but Hydro Pump has the same accuracy and PP limitation as Stone Edge, and Aqua Tail's PP isn't great.
On that note, I oppose Waterfall:
Waterfall's flinch chance on a pokemon with 95 Spe is not to be ignored. Its much more than just 10 BP for 10 Acc, Waterfall can have game-changing repurcussions on a flinch. It even has higher PP.
Megahorn is cool:
Megahorn is fairly interesting in how it operates with Sucker Punch, allowing an equally effective hit against Latias while doing more to Celebi and less to Skarmory. The additional Dark coverage it adds makes it cool, but not overpowered. Once again the key to the Guts set is that Sucker Punch makes it useful, but not overpowered. Of course it will be useful, otherwise no one would use it. Megahorn doesn't add any real extraordinary coverage outside of other CAP9s and a second way to hit TTar hard.
I support the following combinations of moves:
Fire and Water Moves.
Water and Ice Moves.
But oppose these combinations:
Fire and Ice Moves:
Reason being that without Fire, Skarmory and Bronzong can screw around with you fairly well, and with Ice, Dragons cause you more trouble than they otherwise warrant, especially Salamence and oddly enough, Latias. Water hits Bulky Grounds fairly well, but Hydro Pump has the same accuracy and PP limitation as Stone Edge, and Aqua Tail's PP isn't great.
On that note, I oppose Waterfall:
Waterfall's flinch chance on a pokemon with 95 Spe is not to be ignored. Its much more than just 10 BP for 10 Acc, Waterfall can have game-changing repurcussions on a flinch. It even has higher PP.
Megahorn is cool:
Megahorn is fairly interesting in how it operates with Sucker Punch, allowing an equally effective hit against Latias while doing more to Celebi and less to Skarmory. The additional Dark coverage it adds makes it cool, but not overpowered. Once again the key to the Guts set is that Sucker Punch makes it useful, but not overpowered. Of course it will be useful, otherwise no one would use it. Megahorn doesn't add any real extraordinary coverage outside of other CAP9s and a second way to hit TTar hard.
I like Focus Punch, because it fits the "stop the secondary" theme perfectly, being a move that encourages the use of regular attacks. With high HP and Dark STAB, he could make good use of a sub punch set.
I don't really like Ice Punch, Brave Bird, and Megahorn because some of the only pokemon that can both wall the Guts set and hit back for SE damage are defensive Grass types (Waters are decent but crucially lack Earthquake resistance, bumping things like Suicune into the realm of "2HKO with SR"). Tangrowth and Torterra need more love, anyway.
Also, I'm surprised Facade hasn't been mentioned, given that he gets guts and all.
I don't really like Ice Punch, Brave Bird, and Megahorn because some of the only pokemon that can both wall the Guts set and hit back for SE damage are defensive Grass types (Waters are decent but crucially lack Earthquake resistance, bumping things like Suicune into the realm of "2HKO with SR"). Tangrowth and Torterra need more love, anyway.
Also, I'm surprised Facade hasn't been mentioned, given that he gets guts and all.
What is one Pokemon that is a common user of secondary moves, and is a possible counter to CAP9? Gliscor. With the addition of Ice Shard, CAP9 could better handle Gliscor, 2HKOing it even without a boost. Ice Shard would better allow CAP9 to fulfill its purpose of stopping the secondary by taking out one common Pokemon that can use secondary moves but not get stopped by CAP9. Because of Ice Shard's low base power, neutral Crunch or Sucker Punch would do more damage than SE Ice Shard, so it would only be worth it when it is 4x effective. This would make it only useful for Gliscor, the main concern, and Dragonite and Salamence, which wouldn't be able to counter it anyway.
I was thinking that maybe Woodhammer could be a great move on CAP9, it gives him a solid hit for water and ground while not hurting Skarm. If CAP9 got this then I would have to vote against any fire type other then fire fang, because it would remove a few to many counters.
I oppose Hydro Pump, Overheat, Fire Blast and Explosion.
This thing is meant to stop the secondary, not be a beastly sweeper. Its SpA is not exactly bad by any means with moves 100+ power, and these moves would make it have a MixMence-esque moveset, and that's going off on the completely wrong direction.
I also am against Brave Bird, but that's mainly a flavour argument. I am for Drill Peck and Aerial Ace, however, because they're not ridiculously overpowered off CAP9's rather large Atk stat + Guts.
U-Turn, from a stopping the secondary perspective, could be potentially useful. You can run in with Auto-Magic Coat, reflect back status, and U-Turn out on the probable switch (depending on the situation, of course). Therefore, I am for U-Turn.
I'm also for Dark Pulse, if it has been mentioned already. Sure, we're meant to be stopping the secondary, but who says CAP9 can't abuse it itself? I guess it could be in the same boat as Waterfall, but off the lower SpA it shouldn't be an issue.
This thing is meant to stop the secondary, not be a beastly sweeper. Its SpA is not exactly bad by any means with moves 100+ power, and these moves would make it have a MixMence-esque moveset, and that's going off on the completely wrong direction.
I also am against Brave Bird, but that's mainly a flavour argument. I am for Drill Peck and Aerial Ace, however, because they're not ridiculously overpowered off CAP9's rather large Atk stat + Guts.
U-Turn, from a stopping the secondary perspective, could be potentially useful. You can run in with Auto-Magic Coat, reflect back status, and U-Turn out on the probable switch (depending on the situation, of course). Therefore, I am for U-Turn.
I'm also for Dark Pulse, if it has been mentioned already. Sure, we're meant to be stopping the secondary, but who says CAP9 can't abuse it itself? I guess it could be in the same boat as Waterfall, but off the lower SpA it shouldn't be an issue.
So hang on, why is Brave Bird allowed?
The problem I can see is that we're already allowing what has potential as a Guts sweeper a huge amount of high powered moves.
I didn't see the other thread, but I'm guessing it's to cover Heracross and Breloom, who resist its STABs. If that's the case, couldn't we just give it Drill Peck? Not only does it make more sense flavour wise, but it can easily take down Heracross and Breloom (4x Weaknesses are fun) without giving it yet another 120 base power move. Or we could even just not give it either, it doesn't need to beat everything. Although I guess it should be able to take out Breloom to fulfil its concept better.
I'm supporting Superpower over Close Combat. We're not aiming for a massive sweeper, and I think Superpower would make it a little less powerful.
I also agree with Deck Knight regarding... well everything actually.
Oh yeah, and if there's anything I've missed regarding the reasons for Brave Bird, could you tell me? Again, I didn't see the thread...
Also, Seed Bomb, I don't get that either (or like it really, but I'm not going to try to argue with no clue of its purpose).
The problem I can see is that we're already allowing what has potential as a Guts sweeper a huge amount of high powered moves.
I didn't see the other thread, but I'm guessing it's to cover Heracross and Breloom, who resist its STABs. If that's the case, couldn't we just give it Drill Peck? Not only does it make more sense flavour wise, but it can easily take down Heracross and Breloom (4x Weaknesses are fun) without giving it yet another 120 base power move. Or we could even just not give it either, it doesn't need to beat everything. Although I guess it should be able to take out Breloom to fulfil its concept better.
I'm supporting Superpower over Close Combat. We're not aiming for a massive sweeper, and I think Superpower would make it a little less powerful.
I also agree with Deck Knight regarding... well everything actually.
Oh yeah, and if there's anything I've missed regarding the reasons for Brave Bird, could you tell me? Again, I didn't see the thread...
Also, Seed Bomb, I don't get that either (or like it really, but I'm not going to try to argue with no clue of its purpose).
I had to write this damn comment like three times because of some stupid login thing.
I like to suggest Flamethrower into the mix. It's weaker than Fire Blast/Overheat and take a hefty chuck of EVs to ensure 2HKOs on certain Pokemon. I don't much care for losing Skarm/Growth/Scizor in terms of checking this guy as I support the idea of keeping Gliscor/Suicune/Gyarados/Swampert as potential checks.
I like to suggest Flamethrower into the mix. It's weaker than Fire Blast/Overheat and take a hefty chuck of EVs to ensure 2HKOs on certain Pokemon. I don't much care for losing Skarm/Growth/Scizor in terms of checking this guy as I support the idea of keeping Gliscor/Suicune/Gyarados/Swampert as potential checks.
CAP9 sorta already a massive sweeper with it's decent speed, strong attack score, and decent stab moves. We just have to make sure it's not a super massive sweeper. I have no problems with Superpower and could care less if Close Combat is banned or not. I was going to discuss on why Close Combat make some sense on whalemon, but that's off-topic.
Actually, IIRC, you can 2HKO Skarmory with a Life Orb and no investment using Flamethrower with Rocks up. You do force a negative (special) defense nature though, which may not be ideal.
I'd be nice to be able to beat down Steel and Grass types though, they are notorious for secondary spamming (except Scizor, really).
One move that has gone unmentioned and does fit the "body type" of CAP9 is Bounce.
Bounce does have significant drawbacks, but it gives it a Flying move and can keep a Breloom at bay if it evades the Spore.
I oppose Flare Blitz and Brave Bird:
Aside from creating a lot of silliness on this, these are excellent moves that work extremely well on a high-HP low defense build. There is no real disadvantage to a recoil move when you could take out 1227 out of your opponent's HP before you faint from the recoil. Brave Bird lets it deal with Fighting types just a little too easily, and Flare Blitz does the same for Skarm and Bronzong.
I oppose Seed Bomb:
It makes it far too easy to target both Bulky Waters and Bulky Grounds simultaneously. I think Earthquake and Crunch cover most of the Bulky Water threats well enough already, I don't see why Seed Bomb should be competing for a 4th slot, given its generally terrible overlap with Ground in OU. I think its existence detracts too much from the concept, creating too many viable options for a sweeper set. Most of the other moves have some redundant coverage or exist as an option for one series of threats.
Bounce does have significant drawbacks, but it gives it a Flying move and can keep a Breloom at bay if it evades the Spore.
I oppose Flare Blitz and Brave Bird:
Aside from creating a lot of silliness on this, these are excellent moves that work extremely well on a high-HP low defense build. There is no real disadvantage to a recoil move when you could take out 1227 out of your opponent's HP before you faint from the recoil. Brave Bird lets it deal with Fighting types just a little too easily, and Flare Blitz does the same for Skarm and Bronzong.
I oppose Seed Bomb:
It makes it far too easy to target both Bulky Waters and Bulky Grounds simultaneously. I think Earthquake and Crunch cover most of the Bulky Water threats well enough already, I don't see why Seed Bomb should be competing for a 4th slot, given its generally terrible overlap with Ground in OU. I think its existence detracts too much from the concept, creating too many viable options for a sweeper set. Most of the other moves have some redundant coverage or exist as an option for one series of threats.
For the Allowed moves, I'd like to oppose Overheat. Apart from the obvious flavor issues and the fact that a Ground/Dark type shouldn't be able to use the attack, we already have Fire Blast and Overheat is unneeded.
I'm indifferent to Seed Bomb. I don't see much difference if its used barring the fact that it destroys Swampert, which certainly doesn't make the move broken. Further though, the attack is quite useless and anyway, I doubt it'll be used that much seeing the number of better options available to CAP9, so maybe it can be removed. All the other Allowed moves are good to go.
I also oppose Brave Bird and Close Combat.
Aren't we giving a few too many high-powered moves to CAP9 and it'll most likely end up being a plain sweeper which will just be going against our primary objective. (Also, for BB, the fact that this isn't a bird) These moves will surely overpower CAP9 but that being said, I'm all for the more balanced alternatives like Aerial Ace and Superpower.
I'm not entirely convinced but I think Aqua Tail and Ice Punch should be disallowed. I still support the alternatives like Hydro Pump, Avalanche and Ice Fang though. Also, Fire Punch should be allowed, as it's a decent option for anyone who wants to run a fully Physical set and not depend on Fire Blast.
I'm also extending some support for Outrage and Sucker Punch. These two are standard, good moves and while not being very powerful, are viable options for CAP9. They both have their pros and cons - Outrage, though unSTABed packs a punch against stuff like Latias and does good damage thanks to it Base Power, while Sucker Punch gives CAP9 some much needed STAB priority and helps against a whole bunch of faster Pokemon, Latias, Azelf, Gengar, Scarf-Rotom to name a few, while letting CAP9 finish weakened foes. These attacks should be considered so as to give CAP9 a few options which could surprise opponents by deviating from the "standard" set.
Lastly, I feel U-turn should be allowed. Amazing scouting move and since it looks like CAP9 will frequently force switches, it'll help in wearing down the opponent's Pokemon while scouting the opposing counter for CAP9 and finishing it off, so that we can Stop the Secondary.
I'm indifferent to Seed Bomb. I don't see much difference if its used barring the fact that it destroys Swampert, which certainly doesn't make the move broken. Further though, the attack is quite useless and anyway, I doubt it'll be used that much seeing the number of better options available to CAP9, so maybe it can be removed. All the other Allowed moves are good to go.
I also oppose Brave Bird and Close Combat.
Aren't we giving a few too many high-powered moves to CAP9 and it'll most likely end up being a plain sweeper which will just be going against our primary objective. (Also, for BB, the fact that this isn't a bird) These moves will surely overpower CAP9 but that being said, I'm all for the more balanced alternatives like Aerial Ace and Superpower.
I'm not entirely convinced but I think Aqua Tail and Ice Punch should be disallowed. I still support the alternatives like Hydro Pump, Avalanche and Ice Fang though. Also, Fire Punch should be allowed, as it's a decent option for anyone who wants to run a fully Physical set and not depend on Fire Blast.
I'm also extending some support for Outrage and Sucker Punch. These two are standard, good moves and while not being very powerful, are viable options for CAP9. They both have their pros and cons - Outrage, though unSTABed packs a punch against stuff like Latias and does good damage thanks to it Base Power, while Sucker Punch gives CAP9 some much needed STAB priority and helps against a whole bunch of faster Pokemon, Latias, Azelf, Gengar, Scarf-Rotom to name a few, while letting CAP9 finish weakened foes. These attacks should be considered so as to give CAP9 a few options which could surprise opponents by deviating from the "standard" set.
Lastly, I feel U-turn should be allowed. Amazing scouting move and since it looks like CAP9 will frequently force switches, it'll help in wearing down the opponent's Pokemon while scouting the opposing counter for CAP9 and finishing it off, so that we can Stop the Secondary.
Deck Knight sums it up well. Really, I'm one of those people obsessed with flavourful moves, so I don't have much to contribute. Megahorn, Drill Peck and elemental Fangs all seem to be fair.However, I disagree with elemental punches, Seed Bomb, Waterfall, Overheat, Fire Blast, Hydro Pump and U-turn. I would like to see Outrage and Aqua Tail only as Egg Moves.
- Status