Gengar doesn't really face much of a challenge in OU as the choice specs set has no problem spamming shadow ball and can come in on physical pheromosa. The only real ghost resist is greninja and its ash form,which takes a ton from shadow ball. It also has sets like scarf and ghostium z. Scarf gengar is a really nice check to physical pheromosa and can also destiny bond past sweepers. Ghostium is really annoying for stall to manage.
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Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread
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You're underselling just how devistating an effect Gengar has offensively. Ghost is the best offensive type in the meta, with there being so few Dark-types around to actually take it on without being frail as shit (see: Greninja); Pursuit is rare, with its key users (Mega Metagross, Tyranitar, Weavile) being weak to Ghost or uncommon, respectively, and Bisharp--an S rank in UU which heavily pressures Gengar--is practically nonexistent. Gengar has a lot of different variants which provide different types of utility, and are just generally all very threatening to different archetypes. When I face Gengar, I expect to either lose a 'mon or have one crippled heavily every time it comes in, and between the versatility provided by LO/Ghostium Z sets, the sheer wallbreaking power of Specs and the all-around utility versus offense due to its excellent revenge killing ability. Just in general the current metagame conditions are very favorable to Gengar, and you can't really use an entirely different metagame as the entire pivot point of your argument on the basis that UU does not function the same way as OU and, as such, the two can not be compared anywhere near as directly as you did in your post (re: "It's not even ranked this high in UU, the tier it's currently in.")
I would like to nominate
for A+ Mega-Mawile has incredible power and lacks GSI. It has access to Swords Dance, 70 base priority and a lot of coverage options.
Fortunatly it is suffering an incurable disease called 4MSS. The sucker punch nerf as well as the introduction of a bunch of mons that do not care about +2 sucker punch (the new fairies for example) hinder its sweeping capabilities by a very noticeable amount compared to gen6. The omnipresence of Landorus-Therian is also not the most pleasing experiences for Mega-Mawile. It is quite good against stall although Dugtrio can hinder it.
Overall, I believe S-Tier would be too high for Mega-Mawile since Mega-Metagross is a bit better right now due to the added bulk and speed even if it lacks some power.
Fortunatly it is suffering an incurable disease called 4MSS. The sucker punch nerf as well as the introduction of a bunch of mons that do not care about +2 sucker punch (the new fairies for example) hinder its sweeping capabilities by a very noticeable amount compared to gen6. The omnipresence of Landorus-Therian is also not the most pleasing experiences for Mega-Mawile. It is quite good against stall although Dugtrio can hinder it.
Overall, I believe S-Tier would be too high for Mega-Mawile since Mega-Metagross is a bit better right now due to the added bulk and speed even if it lacks some power.
Mega Mawile for C+
JK, I think it should start off at A/A+ due to the variety of sets (SubPunch, AoA, SD+Sub, SD+3 Attacks, SpDef Tank) it can run and the fact that even with the nerf to Sucker Punch, with even one layer of hazards up, it's a huge threat at +2.
However, it does not merit S rank at this point because of the prevalence of Mega Metagross which checks it well, and Mega Scizor, which walls non-Fire Fang variants.
JK, I think it should start off at A/A+ due to the variety of sets (SubPunch, AoA, SD+Sub, SD+3 Attacks, SpDef Tank) it can run and the fact that even with the nerf to Sucker Punch, with even one layer of hazards up, it's a huge threat at +2.
However, it does not merit S rank at this point because of the prevalence of Mega Metagross which checks it well, and Mega Scizor, which walls non-Fire Fang variants.
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Mega-Scizor doesnt wall any SD set either (+2 tpunch for example is a clean 2hko) except for maybe knock off?
Also, Mega-Metagross usually does NOT check Mega-Mawile unless you can outplay sucker punch. Earthquake doesnt OHKO even without intimidate and sucker punch is a clean 2hko (or ohko in case Mega-Mawile already got off a Swords Dance).
252 Atk Metagross-Mega Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 196-232 (64.6 - 76.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 204-240 (67.7 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
???
Afaik, there are 2 variants of Mawile; AoA and SD+3 Attacks.
Now, AoA commonly runs Play Rough / Sucker Punch / Thunder Punch / Fire Fang for optimum coverage which of course murders Mega Scizor and will almost kill Mega Metagross because let's be realistic; Mega Metagross will rarely be at 80%+ late game because it is used as a beatstick that can switch into attacks.
Then, we look at the SD set. While Knock Off appears to offer optimum coverage, Thunder Punch is still a common coverage move to take care of Toxapex (and still has enough power to 2HKO Scizor). Granted, Scizor wall sets with Knock Off but that's not really reliable because you need to pray for Mawile to not carry Fire Fang or Thunder Punch.
That aside, I'm not sure where to place Mega Mawile exactly because while obscenely powerful, it doesn't really provide defensive synergy in the way Megas like Metagross and Scizor does; thus the opportunity cost. The reliance on Sucker Punch against Offense is another factor against it so while Mawile might not exactly be S material, it's definitely not because of something which walls it.
Mega Mawile for A+
Mega Mawile is an extremely large threat with a degree of versatility and the ability to threaten every playstyle. Nothing can switch in on it, even on stall teams, and it doesn't need Swords Dance in order to 2HKO Skarmory, Quagsire, Toxapex, etc. It also can easily OHKO Dugtrio with Sucker Punch provided that its sash is broken, which is an excellent quality for breaking stall in the current metagame. It doesn't forfeit its matchup against other playstyles as SD+Sucker Punch can easily clean up games, or it can simply break teams by coming in on a choiced offensive mon (Ashninja's Dark Pulse, Tapu Lele's STAB, Pheromosa's Bug Buzz, Hoopa-U, Nihilego) and simply get a kill. Sucker Punch is also one of the most powerful priority moves in the tier, which lets it revenge kill pretty much anything when weakened enough, letting it act as extra insurance against certain setup sweepers like Volcarona, Pheromosa, or Salamence, as Mega Mawile's Sucker Punch does a little over half to each of these. It still has a few switch-ins like Heatran or Landorus-Therian, but bulky Heatran seems less common this generation, and the increased commonness of Thunder Punch makes it easier to wear it down (Thunder punch can 2HKO offensive heatran sometimes). Landorus-Therian can switch in once or twice, but it's relatively easy to wear down and take ~40% from Play Rough, or ~60% on the first switch-in if the Mawile trolls it by running Hyper Cutter. This is perhaps the best reason to run Hyper Cutter: to potentially only let Landorus-Therian switch in once.
If it has any flaws it's that it has quite low speed which makes it reliant on Sucker Punch, which can make it struggle against things on offensive teams that resist it, especially special attackers like Greninja, Pheromosa (still gets 2HKO'd lol), Keldeo and Tapus. There are less Dark-types like Weavile or Tyranitar for Mawile to check. Mawile wishes it were a bit faster too, so it can outspeed things like defensive Landorus-Therian, Tapu Fini, and other things in that general vicinity. Overall, the metagame is a little bit more unkind to it this time around. In spite of this it has a billion great qualities that allow it to be A+ rank. I actually think it's better than most of the other A+ ranks.
Mega Beedrill for.... uh.... hmm
Mega Beedrill is really interesting because in a vacuum, it's a much better mon than last generation (where it was C- rank iirc) thanks to the mega speed buff, which is tbh a huge buff and one of the main reasons it has stirred up so much discussion. But it's important to be objective when ranking this Pokemon. Disregarding the mega slot competition argument, it finds itself grossly outclassed by Pheromosa which is leaps and bounds more versatile than Beedrill can hope to be. Ultimately, Pokemon are ranked based on their niche, and Beedrill's niche has changed from "speedy momentum gaining Bug-type that outspeeds entire unboosted meta" to "Pheromosa alternative that can kill Tapu Fini better but suffers from SR weakness and is completely one-dimensional". That's not to say Beedrill is bad at its job. Whenever I used Beedrill this gen I found it performing consistently at its job, which was to outspeed nearly everything and gain momentum while dealing a lot of damage. It can't do much to threats like Landorus-T and Scizor, but that hasn't changed from last generation, where Landorus-T and Scizor were equally, if not more common and Beedrill was still seen as a niche threat that requires a lot of support but can perform well if needed. Ultimately, Pheromosa is the main thing that has changed for Beedrill. Beedrill's U-turn and Poison Jab are stronger, but Pheromosa has better Speed, the ability to surprise the opponent with its variety of sets, and better coverage overall tbh. Although Beedrill doesn't get worn down by Life Orb, this is offset by the Stealth Rock weakness. While Bug/Fighting is not spectacular neutral coverage, neither is Bug/Poison, and Pheromosa's Ice Beam + Poison Jab + Hidden Power can round it out very well. Beedrill has some decent coverage too, but it find itself competely walled by a greater number of threats than Pheromosa does, especially since Pheromosa can cheese some of its potential counters with Z-Moves. While Beedrill has greater bulk (lol) and takes roughly half what Pheromosa does from Ash-Greninja's Water Shuriken, this is not enough to build a niche on, and more importantly, Beedrill takes roughly twice what Pheromosa does from Mega Mawile's Sucker Punch, another extremely important priority attack, OHKOing it without fail.
Ultimately I can't decide whether it should be ranked, but I'm leaning towards no. If it is ranked it should be placed in C-, same as last generation. Like I said, whenever I used Beedrill it performed well at its role, but Pokemon that are completely outclassed shouldn't be ranked, even if they function well. It has a very arguable niche which I'm not sure is enough to distinguish it. It's one of the main reasons Pokemon like Raikou fell off so hard (among other things). It's just kind of a shame because it had a lot of potential this generation, and it's sure to perform well in UU (oh wait there's Scizor and discount Lando-T there too).
I had a lot of thoughts in this post and I hope I got them through in a concise way without being too much of an information overload.
Mega Mawile is an extremely large threat with a degree of versatility and the ability to threaten every playstyle. Nothing can switch in on it, even on stall teams, and it doesn't need Swords Dance in order to 2HKO Skarmory, Quagsire, Toxapex, etc. It also can easily OHKO Dugtrio with Sucker Punch provided that its sash is broken, which is an excellent quality for breaking stall in the current metagame. It doesn't forfeit its matchup against other playstyles as SD+Sucker Punch can easily clean up games, or it can simply break teams by coming in on a choiced offensive mon (Ashninja's Dark Pulse, Tapu Lele's STAB, Pheromosa's Bug Buzz, Hoopa-U, Nihilego) and simply get a kill. Sucker Punch is also one of the most powerful priority moves in the tier, which lets it revenge kill pretty much anything when weakened enough, letting it act as extra insurance against certain setup sweepers like Volcarona, Pheromosa, or Salamence, as Mega Mawile's Sucker Punch does a little over half to each of these. It still has a few switch-ins like Heatran or Landorus-Therian, but bulky Heatran seems less common this generation, and the increased commonness of Thunder Punch makes it easier to wear it down (Thunder punch can 2HKO offensive heatran sometimes). Landorus-Therian can switch in once or twice, but it's relatively easy to wear down and take ~40% from Play Rough, or ~60% on the first switch-in if the Mawile trolls it by running Hyper Cutter. This is perhaps the best reason to run Hyper Cutter: to potentially only let Landorus-Therian switch in once.
If it has any flaws it's that it has quite low speed which makes it reliant on Sucker Punch, which can make it struggle against things on offensive teams that resist it, especially special attackers like Greninja, Pheromosa (still gets 2HKO'd lol), Keldeo and Tapus. There are less Dark-types like Weavile or Tyranitar for Mawile to check. Mawile wishes it were a bit faster too, so it can outspeed things like defensive Landorus-Therian, Tapu Fini, and other things in that general vicinity. Overall, the metagame is a little bit more unkind to it this time around. In spite of this it has a billion great qualities that allow it to be A+ rank. I actually think it's better than most of the other A+ ranks.
Mega Beedrill for.... uh.... hmm
Mega Beedrill is really interesting because in a vacuum, it's a much better mon than last generation (where it was C- rank iirc) thanks to the mega speed buff, which is tbh a huge buff and one of the main reasons it has stirred up so much discussion. But it's important to be objective when ranking this Pokemon. Disregarding the mega slot competition argument, it finds itself grossly outclassed by Pheromosa which is leaps and bounds more versatile than Beedrill can hope to be. Ultimately, Pokemon are ranked based on their niche, and Beedrill's niche has changed from "speedy momentum gaining Bug-type that outspeeds entire unboosted meta" to "Pheromosa alternative that can kill Tapu Fini better but suffers from SR weakness and is completely one-dimensional". That's not to say Beedrill is bad at its job. Whenever I used Beedrill this gen I found it performing consistently at its job, which was to outspeed nearly everything and gain momentum while dealing a lot of damage. It can't do much to threats like Landorus-T and Scizor, but that hasn't changed from last generation, where Landorus-T and Scizor were equally, if not more common and Beedrill was still seen as a niche threat that requires a lot of support but can perform well if needed. Ultimately, Pheromosa is the main thing that has changed for Beedrill. Beedrill's U-turn and Poison Jab are stronger, but Pheromosa has better Speed, the ability to surprise the opponent with its variety of sets, and better coverage overall tbh. Although Beedrill doesn't get worn down by Life Orb, this is offset by the Stealth Rock weakness. While Bug/Fighting is not spectacular neutral coverage, neither is Bug/Poison, and Pheromosa's Ice Beam + Poison Jab + Hidden Power can round it out very well. Beedrill has some decent coverage too, but it find itself competely walled by a greater number of threats than Pheromosa does, especially since Pheromosa can cheese some of its potential counters with Z-Moves. While Beedrill has greater bulk (lol) and takes roughly half what Pheromosa does from Ash-Greninja's Water Shuriken, this is not enough to build a niche on, and more importantly, Beedrill takes roughly twice what Pheromosa does from Mega Mawile's Sucker Punch, another extremely important priority attack, OHKOing it without fail.
Ultimately I can't decide whether it should be ranked, but I'm leaning towards no. If it is ranked it should be placed in C-, same as last generation. Like I said, whenever I used Beedrill it performed well at its role, but Pokemon that are completely outclassed shouldn't be ranked, even if they function well. It has a very arguable niche which I'm not sure is enough to distinguish it. It's one of the main reasons Pokemon like Raikou fell off so hard (among other things). It's just kind of a shame because it had a lot of potential this generation, and it's sure to perform well in UU (oh wait there's Scizor and discount Lando-T there too).
I had a lot of thoughts in this post and I hope I got them through in a concise way without being too much of an information overload.
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Perhaps for the time being Mega Beedrill for B/B+.
Everyone's saying that Pheromosa outclasses Beedrill and while that's true to an extent, you're forgetting that this is Mega Beedrill with Adaptability! Beedrill can take on some Pokémon that Pheromosa can't, like Toxapex and especially Heatran with Drill Run, and it can OHKO all the Tapus with Adaptability Poison Jab. Considering Pheromosa is ranked S, I say ranking Beedrill in the B rankings seems fair.
Everyone's saying that Pheromosa outclasses Beedrill and while that's true to an extent, you're forgetting that this is Mega Beedrill with Adaptability! Beedrill can take on some Pokémon that Pheromosa can't, like Toxapex and especially Heatran with Drill Run, and it can OHKO all the Tapus with Adaptability Poison Jab. Considering Pheromosa is ranked S, I say ranking Beedrill in the B rankings seems fair.
readytolose
"It finds itself grossly outclassed by Pheromosa which is leaps and bounds more versatile than Beedrill can hope to be."
As you mention later in this post Mega-Beedrill does not get outclassed by Pheromosa due to how much harder it can hit with its Poison Jab. While Pheromosa is better in a lot of ways like having more versatility, being able to hold an item and just about everything else you need to keep in mind that Pheromosa is debatably the best Pokemon in the OU tier and it being better doesnt mean a pokemon that isnt outclassed and still so very good at its role shouldn't be ranked.
"That's not to say Beedrill is bad at its job. Beedrill's U-turn and Poison Jab are stronger, but Pheromosa has better Speed, the ability to surprise the opponent with its variety of sets, and better coverage overall tbh."
Which is exactly why Pheromosa is S rank and Mega-Beedrill should be ranked but much lower.
"Like I said, whenever I used Beedrill it performed well at its role, but Pokemon that are completely outclassed shouldn't be ranked, even if they function well. It has a very arguable niche which I'm not sure is enough to distinguish it."
In my opinion Mega-Beedrill being so comparable to Pheromosa is a huge plus and not a reason to not rank it. Its niche is clearly there with stronger STAB and even stronger Poison Jab (which can be important to check stuff like clefable tapu fini and oneshot koko, something that most Pheromosa sets have trouble with) and the fact that Pheromosa is a god doesnt mean Mega-Beedrill shouldnt be ranked at all. I am all for mentioning how Pheromosa is better on most teams in its analysis.
Also for people who are talking about Poisonium Z Pheromosa outclassing Mega-Beedrill: You give up most of your advantages over Mega-Beedrill trying to outclass it but even then Mega-Beedrill has a more consistent poison attack, uses the Mega-Slot over a Z-Crystal and has a stronger hitting U-turn paired with access to Knock Off and even Swords Dance or Toxic Spikes (I used that set I swear its hotgarbage).
"It finds itself grossly outclassed by Pheromosa which is leaps and bounds more versatile than Beedrill can hope to be."
As you mention later in this post Mega-Beedrill does not get outclassed by Pheromosa due to how much harder it can hit with its Poison Jab. While Pheromosa is better in a lot of ways like having more versatility, being able to hold an item and just about everything else you need to keep in mind that Pheromosa is debatably the best Pokemon in the OU tier and it being better doesnt mean a pokemon that isnt outclassed and still so very good at its role shouldn't be ranked.
"That's not to say Beedrill is bad at its job. Beedrill's U-turn and Poison Jab are stronger, but Pheromosa has better Speed, the ability to surprise the opponent with its variety of sets, and better coverage overall tbh."
Which is exactly why Pheromosa is S rank and Mega-Beedrill should be ranked but much lower.
"Like I said, whenever I used Beedrill it performed well at its role, but Pokemon that are completely outclassed shouldn't be ranked, even if they function well. It has a very arguable niche which I'm not sure is enough to distinguish it."
In my opinion Mega-Beedrill being so comparable to Pheromosa is a huge plus and not a reason to not rank it. Its niche is clearly there with stronger STAB and even stronger Poison Jab (which can be important to check stuff like clefable tapu fini and oneshot koko, something that most Pheromosa sets have trouble with) and the fact that Pheromosa is a god doesnt mean Mega-Beedrill shouldnt be ranked at all. I am all for mentioning how Pheromosa is better on most teams in its analysis.
Also for people who are talking about Poisonium Z Pheromosa outclassing Mega-Beedrill: You give up most of your advantages over Mega-Beedrill trying to outclass it but even then Mega-Beedrill has a more consistent poison attack, uses the Mega-Slot over a Z-Crystal and has a stronger hitting U-turn paired with access to Knock Off and even Swords Dance or Toxic Spikes (I used that set I swear its hot
Am I missing something? How can Pheromosa not take on Heatran?
I see many people talking about how
mBeedrill's niche is having a stronger U-Turn and Poison Jab. I feel this is moot when you consider that mBeedrill and Pheromosa pivot on completely different things. mBeedrills most common answer is Landorus which it absolutely cannot touch, but you also have other A+ and A mons that can come in and not fear it: Celesteela, Zygarde, Toxapex, Scizor etc.. no matter the coverage option you click it does not beat them; However, if you were to replace Beedrill with Pheromosa you cut the amount of potential switch ins by half while also freeing up a mega slot and the immense support you need for using Beedrill.
I understand that mBeedrill can beat many of the fairy types that are running around the tier, but the opportunity cost of using it is much to high to justify using it.
TL;DR overall the prevalence of Lando, Scizor, the apparent rise in Toxapex, the rise of scarf keldeo, the boost in Zygarde usage, and it being outclassed by Pheromosa should reflect it's placement on the VR.
Mawile is still the strongest hitter in the tier. Has the great capability to 6-0 stall even with Dugtrio still being in the tier. Destroys fatter teams and pressure faster teams with Sucker Punch, should make it one of the higher tiered megas. Sometimes when playing against it there is simply nothing you can do to play around sucker punch in the late game. You'll also find yourself having to trade kills since it has no good switch ins with amazing coverage. With Lando only being able to switch in once at most. Metagross is still around which is def the better mega, and Scizor walling the non fire fang variants while also having the extremely rare niche of walling Metagross should show that it's no longer absolutely broken. Also, in a meta that values having either blistering speed or unnatural bulk or some combination on the two (Metagross) it fall short in some areas. Despite its perfect typing it doesn't find nearly enough switch ins with it being so frail.
TL;DR Although not broken, it is still one of the better megas in the tier and should be placed relatively high.
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I support the nom for Mega-Beedrill to be placed at C- or C
On the the surface, the mega speed buff is indeed a big thing for Mbee; not running protect means it can run SD+3 attacks or AoA now (most notably being U-turn/Pjab/Knock off/Drill Run). However, upon a quick analysis, one will see that it didn't really got better in SM, most notably due to the introduction of Pheromosa, which highly outclassed it, as well as the Landorus-t, which walls it, being more popular as ever.
It's niche over Pheromosa is just being able to OHKO Fini after rocks, and living pre-Ash-Greninja's Water Shuriken (which 32 sdef Phero does, assuming 3 hits). Meanwhile, it is rocks weak (which highly ofsets Pheromosa getting worn down from Life Orb recoil), it cannot use an item, uses up your mega slot, which is a big factor considering how strong the likes of Metagross-Mega is at the moment, and most especially, it is walled by the most used mon in the tier, Landorus-Therian.
Furthermore, it is only extremely slightly bulkier than Pheromosa on the physical side, and is decently bulkier on the special side; this means that it also dies to the priority attacks that Pheromosa drops to, which are: Mega Pinsir's Quick Attack, Adamant Choice Banded Dragonite's Extremespeed, Adamant Choice Banded Zygarde's Extremespeed, and Choice Banded Crawdaunt's Aqua Jet.
Meanwhile, Pheromosa can OHKO the other Tapus which Mbee is touted to do with its Adaptability Poison Jab. For example:
252 Atk Life Orb Pheromosa Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 270-320 (96 - 113.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Pheromosa Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Lele: 299-354 (106.4 - 125.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Pheromosa Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Bulu: 320-380 (113.8 - 135.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Pheromosa's Choice Specs set also OHKO Tapu Bulu with Bug Buzz, as well as Tapu Lele after Rocks.
As an added liability, it doesn't live Mega-Mawile's Sucker Punch, while Phero lives it and proceeds to OHKO afterwards with a Z-Focus Blast, or OHKO with regular Focus Blast at +1 (after a Quiver Dance Boost).
Thus; in the end, while it is touted as a fairy killer, Pheromosa just does the same, without the massive costs that comes with using Mega-Beedrill. In the end, its position didn't really got better since ORAS, and it should remain at the lower ends of the VR.
Yes, Adaptability Poison Jab is stronger than the zMove. I never said it wasn't. However regular posion jab. AND zPosion Jab beat the same things that mBeedrill beat. I'm am also not saying that zPosion is better than mBeedrill since it's definitely the worst Mosa set. However to say that Mosa "cannot hope to touch xyz" is just plain wrong.
I've already explain how the bulk advantage is marginal at best. Since rocks turn 2HKO's into rolls that's aren't in your favor.
Fair enough.
I say that it's a worse mosa because it's true. While Beedrill is stronger, which I have not denied, the more coverage options, MUCH less switch ins, snowball potential, and the ability to be put on any team without any support needed simply makes it better than Beedrill.
don't think bee deserves a rank at all, let alone all of this extended discussion. if you cannot give me a legitimately convincing argument to use something or consider it for a teamslot in a meta that is saturated with threats then that is equatable to being unviable, in my eyes. hilarious talk of "niches"; this word has been used to justify the ranking of utter dogshit in the past (think: flygon and lolhaxorus in xy) and it shouldn't happen now.
Yeah, this post is spot on. When Mawile's major issue is competition from Gross/Sciz, I don't understand how Bee can seriously be considered to have any sort of spot in OU.
Think this over: Mawile, something deemed so broken it was banned in XY, is now not top tier because of the opportunity cost of not using Gross or Sciz. The metagame is stupidly centralized over S rank 'mons atm, and claiming something that can't do jack to THE most overused 'mon (Lando-T) is plainly stupid. Yeah, you can pressure it, but when Bee struggles to do anything sizable to begin with, you'll end up struggling to kill a weakened Landorus.
The major point here is the massive opportunity cost of using Bee: you're not using Metagross, the only guaranteed switch-in to Metagross, and, to a lesser extent of significance, an extremely strong wallbreaker in Mawile.
It's not just Lando-T, It's, on top, Celesteela, Metagross itself, Sciz, Zygarde, Ferrothorn and others that Bee just cannot touch. The niches it has over Pheromosa are stupid, you may not like it, but Pheromosa is a straight upgrade of Bee. Not basing the reasoning of it not being ranked on Phero outclassing it, but mostly the fact that stuff that's as centralising as a fucking cyclone in this meta just troubles it too much. It's at best a C-/C mon.
Since when does Bee have another role that sets it appart from Phero? They are both fast, frail, offensive cleaner, momentum gainer, except Phero has the unpredictability factor with multiple sets, the ability to hold an item and boost its stats. You start your post by saying that some mons dont completely outclass others because of their different roles, but then you fail to see that Bee and Phero DO have the same role and Phero just does it better, what the fuck?
Pheromosa is far more versatile than Bee, since it can run all kinds of sets (some of which include U-turn) while Bee is just one-dimensional. Fighting STAB is better than Poison STAB a lot of the time, and whatever Pheromosa doesn't like its teammates can deal with. As for Beedrill, it needs an massive amount of support to wear down the stuff that walls it (read: most Steel types and some bulky Waters) which doesn't make it worth it. It's not just Pheromosa that's the issue, it's also the waste of a Mega slot: you can make your team so much better by using Sciz or Meta and a different non-mega pivot like Koko.
My point: C- at best, unranked at worst. Use a different Mega and/or Phero.
E: Greninja'd
Just to put things into perspective, MegaBee is preventing you from running three extremely strong mons, getting stopped cold by a good portion of the top-tier threats, still requires a good bit of support in order to not get worn down too fast, and just to top it off, Pheromosa's better sets are the special ones, ie. Specs and Quiver Dance. The mon that outclasses it isn't even running that AOA, because the meta isn't vulnerable to it and it has better things to do. Beedrill isn't just outclassed, but from the way things are now it's niche isn't even effective.
thirding tigers jaw and dk's posts. Beedrill doesn't need to be ranked.
thirding tigers jaw and dk's posts. Beedrill doesn't need to be ranked.
I don't think Beedrill should be ranked. Use Pheromosa, it's better in basically every way while not taking up a mega slot, and by the way by using Mega Drill you're giving up the chance of using Mawile, Metagross, or Scizor as your mega when all 3 of those are basically a million times better.
I'd say put Mawile in A+, it's easily one of the hardest hitting wallbreakers and needs to be teambuilt for. Not as good as Metagross but given the right support can smash basically every team.
I'd say put Mawile in A+, it's easily one of the hardest hitting wallbreakers and needs to be teambuilt for. Not as good as Metagross but given the right support can smash basically every team.
Im still trying to understand this shit. So, these mons usages are ranked by a certain letter? Ash-Greninja is less used, not really that surprising. Greninja without protean needs a specs to one shot something and even so it cant take a hit if the target manages to live, or if hydro is being a dick move and completely misses the intended target. But it hurts everything badly except Mantine, Vaporeon, Toxapussy, Chansey and Blissey. Ash-Ninja specs hydro in rain may 2 shot blissey, i dont know about chansey though. I only use Ash-Greninja in rain so the weaker regular non-protean greninja can hurt something badly. I can see why people prefer protean. Nothing switches in well, Water Shuriken handles the remaining scarf lando-t's and gunk shot handles fairies, hydro handles magearna (in rain) and mawile, grass knot handles offensive water mons and low kick can 3 tap chansey and two tap blissey also you can run hp fire for ferroporns. Greninja has so many options its ridiculous, but a skillful player can play around it.
Hey, here to comment on Mega Beedrill.
Beedrill is interesting in the regards that it is a powerful mega that received a buff in that it no longer requires Protect to function. However, even with the addition of a fourth move, there is little Beedrill has over Pheromosa. The major flaws Bee has in comparison to Pheromosa is that Bee can't touch Landorus-Therian, which is sort of huge, and Bee just isn't as versatile. It doesn't help that Pheromosa's ability is just better than Adaptability in the long run. When I see a Pheromosa in the Team Preview, I'm never exactly sure what my opponent is going to throw at me, so I have to play smarter around it; however, when I see a Bee in Team Preview, I know exactly what set they're running and exactly what to switch into it (Landorus-Therian).
Not ranking a Mega Pokemon like Beedrill feels sort of awkward to me due to its mega status. It isn't not viable in the OU tier, but I would say there isn't a good reason to use it over Pheromosa. I've never once thought, "Hey, let me make a team with Mega Beedrill!" because there are better Megas I could be running or Pheromosa. However, I do feel that if Pheromosa got suspected down the line (which is entirely possible, as this Pokemon doesn't really have any reliable counters), that Beedrill would find itself with a niche strong enough to place it around the B ranks (it really doesn't feel right putting in in the C ranks next to Decidueye tbh). However, unless Pheromosa gets suspected or something, I really feel like Pheromosa's presence just denies any reason to use Beedrill: you're more versatile than Bee, you can clean up better with Beast Boost, you don't waste a mega slot, you can OHKO Landorus-Therian, you have freedom in item choice (I've even used the "garbage" z poison Pheromosa alongisde webs to pop Tapu Fini which has been better than Bee because this way I can lure it in), etc.
If I absolutely had to rank Beedrill I would place it in the B ranks as the Pokemon is certainly viable and you could build around it and have a functioning team, and Mega Bee is more powerful than the C ranks below it. However, I think not ranking it is a smarter choice because ranking it would imply there is a reason to use it over Pheromosa, which there isn't, there really isn't, so perhaps we can come back to discussing its rank when or if Pheromosa gets suspected/banned.
also lol "no opporunity cost" to using Mega Beedrill when you literally sacrifice the opportunity of running Mega Metagross / Scizor / Mawile / Charizard / Venusaur to run it
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On to Mega Mawile:
I'd say it belongs at A-. With Dugtrio on most stall teams, picking Mega Mawile as one of my team's dedicated stallbreakers always feels like a risk to me. That said, there is no denying that stall has a hard time switching into Mawile. I'd say the AoA, SD and SubSD set are also pretty good against offense, but it does face some problems it didn't last generation, namely Tapu Lele and the abundance of fairy types / bulk creep (Pheromosa can live Sucker Punch, which is sort of huge, Tapu Koko can live Sucker Punch, Greninja can live Sucker Punch and can click Water Shuriken, etc.) which means offense has much more natural answers to Mawile than when it debuted in XY OU. Despite this, behind a Substitute and +2 can still be very powerful against offense, and with the 50-50s Sucker Punch can still create this isn't exactly an un-achievable scenario either. A good majority of balance teams carry Toxapex, so unless you're running Knock Off / Thunder Punch or some kind of coverage move on Maw, you're just not hitting Balance as well as it used to either. Mawile is also slow and the current on-site spread doesn't run very much bulk in comparison to what was standard last generation, so at times it feels very frail when you could be using Magearna, which is better for checking Tapu Lele (which Maw certainly isn't able to do imo).
Despite these weaknesses, Maw is still a strong pokemon in the Mega Slot and can punch holes for something else to clean up rather easily. I'd say it's certainly good enough to warrant itself into the A tier, but I feel strongly that A- is where it belongs for the above flaws mentioned. I could see A rank too possibly.
Beedrill is interesting in the regards that it is a powerful mega that received a buff in that it no longer requires Protect to function. However, even with the addition of a fourth move, there is little Beedrill has over Pheromosa. The major flaws Bee has in comparison to Pheromosa is that Bee can't touch Landorus-Therian, which is sort of huge, and Bee just isn't as versatile. It doesn't help that Pheromosa's ability is just better than Adaptability in the long run. When I see a Pheromosa in the Team Preview, I'm never exactly sure what my opponent is going to throw at me, so I have to play smarter around it; however, when I see a Bee in Team Preview, I know exactly what set they're running and exactly what to switch into it (Landorus-Therian).
Not ranking a Mega Pokemon like Beedrill feels sort of awkward to me due to its mega status. It isn't not viable in the OU tier, but I would say there isn't a good reason to use it over Pheromosa. I've never once thought, "Hey, let me make a team with Mega Beedrill!" because there are better Megas I could be running or Pheromosa. However, I do feel that if Pheromosa got suspected down the line (which is entirely possible, as this Pokemon doesn't really have any reliable counters), that Beedrill would find itself with a niche strong enough to place it around the B ranks (it really doesn't feel right putting in in the C ranks next to Decidueye tbh). However, unless Pheromosa gets suspected or something, I really feel like Pheromosa's presence just denies any reason to use Beedrill: you're more versatile than Bee, you can clean up better with Beast Boost, you don't waste a mega slot, you can OHKO Landorus-Therian, you have freedom in item choice (I've even used the "garbage" z poison Pheromosa alongisde webs to pop Tapu Fini which has been better than Bee because this way I can lure it in), etc.
If I absolutely had to rank Beedrill I would place it in the B ranks as the Pokemon is certainly viable and you could build around it and have a functioning team, and Mega Bee is more powerful than the C ranks below it. However, I think not ranking it is a smarter choice because ranking it would imply there is a reason to use it over Pheromosa, which there isn't, there really isn't, so perhaps we can come back to discussing its rank when or if Pheromosa gets suspected/banned.
also lol "no opporunity cost" to using Mega Beedrill when you literally sacrifice the opportunity of running Mega Metagross / Scizor / Mawile / Charizard / Venusaur to run it
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On to Mega Mawile:
I'd say it belongs at A-. With Dugtrio on most stall teams, picking Mega Mawile as one of my team's dedicated stallbreakers always feels like a risk to me. That said, there is no denying that stall has a hard time switching into Mawile. I'd say the AoA, SD and SubSD set are also pretty good against offense, but it does face some problems it didn't last generation, namely Tapu Lele and the abundance of fairy types / bulk creep (Pheromosa can live Sucker Punch, which is sort of huge, Tapu Koko can live Sucker Punch, Greninja can live Sucker Punch and can click Water Shuriken, etc.) which means offense has much more natural answers to Mawile than when it debuted in XY OU. Despite this, behind a Substitute and +2 can still be very powerful against offense, and with the 50-50s Sucker Punch can still create this isn't exactly an un-achievable scenario either. A good majority of balance teams carry Toxapex, so unless you're running Knock Off / Thunder Punch or some kind of coverage move on Maw, you're just not hitting Balance as well as it used to either. Mawile is also slow and the current on-site spread doesn't run very much bulk in comparison to what was standard last generation, so at times it feels very frail when you could be using Magearna, which is better for checking Tapu Lele (which Maw certainly isn't able to do imo).
Despite these weaknesses, Maw is still a strong pokemon in the Mega Slot and can punch holes for something else to clean up rather easily. I'd say it's certainly good enough to warrant itself into the A tier, but I feel strongly that A- is where it belongs for the above flaws mentioned. I could see A rank too possibly.
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Personally I don't really care about Beedrill's placement, especially at this stage because quite frankly; the entire viablity rankings A- and below probably need to be taken a second look (not sure if Amoonguss and Mega Alakazam should still be in A- personally) but I think the lower rankings are too subjective to personal opinions at this stage of the meta. But I'd like to ask everyone to calm down about the Mega bee discussion or I think it will end up being blacklisted and I honestly hate when that shit happens. Most of the arguments have been discussed to death already so I think it is time just let the OU council decide and if they decide not to rank it and it doesn't sit in well with you then you may contest that idea by succeeding the ladder and even tournaments or something. I think they will have to acknowledge the hornet if people show consistent success with it. (Although I find it hard to justify using any of the C ranks beside the fun factor myself :[)
With that said I think Mega Mawile should be placed in A or A- rank. I'm mostly just gonna repeat what others have said already but I do think they are important flaws to Mega Mawile that keep it from being one of the big baddies of OU. While it's attacking power is astounding it suffers how well the meta is well equipped with tools to handle it. It's not so easy to pull a sweep since it is so slow and if the opponent is smart enough to preserve their sucker punch resist who are on almost every teams at this point. And as mentioned before while it has no full-proof counters it does suffer a 4mss as it risks losing certain matchups depending on it's coverage and unlike Metagross, Mawile cannot afford not running priority for better coverage or it will be too easily revenge-killed. Mawile also receives competition from other mega steels; Mega Scizor and Mega Metagross who while not possessing the same power or even the amazing steel/fairy typing have much better base stats and defenses that allow them to switch into attacks when needed. Mega Mawile preferably never wants to switch into attacks except if they are weak attacks and/or resists, and as such she doesn't provide the defensive synergy her mega steels brethren can provide. With that said, Mawile still has enough versatility between her AoA, SD, Sub and even SubSD sets to keep her opponents on their toes and the potential to send their supposed checks to early graves. Preferably I want to see her in the A ranking but if the SPL players feel she is tad overrated then she can start her SM career in A-.
With that said I think Mega Mawile should be placed in A or A- rank. I'm mostly just gonna repeat what others have said already but I do think they are important flaws to Mega Mawile that keep it from being one of the big baddies of OU. While it's attacking power is astounding it suffers how well the meta is well equipped with tools to handle it. It's not so easy to pull a sweep since it is so slow and if the opponent is smart enough to preserve their sucker punch resist who are on almost every teams at this point. And as mentioned before while it has no full-proof counters it does suffer a 4mss as it risks losing certain matchups depending on it's coverage and unlike Metagross, Mawile cannot afford not running priority for better coverage or it will be too easily revenge-killed. Mawile also receives competition from other mega steels; Mega Scizor and Mega Metagross who while not possessing the same power or even the amazing steel/fairy typing have much better base stats and defenses that allow them to switch into attacks when needed. Mega Mawile preferably never wants to switch into attacks except if they are weak attacks and/or resists, and as such she doesn't provide the defensive synergy her mega steels brethren can provide. With that said, Mawile still has enough versatility between her AoA, SD, Sub and even SubSD sets to keep her opponents on their toes and the potential to send their supposed checks to early graves. Preferably I want to see her in the A ranking but if the SPL players feel she is tad overrated then she can start her SM career in A-.
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Since I get censored for the first time, I'm goind to develop my opinion on Beedrill-Mega.
To my mind, Beedrill-Mega can not be higher than C+ for some raisons :
• Firstable his Movepool. His Movepool is so poor, I mean you have STAB, Koff, Drill and some ""utility"" aka SD and Toxik Spikes.. nothing incredible. Furthermore, even if the bee can hit hard with his 2 STAB, the others moves aka Drill Run and K-Off are pretty weak vs the OU Pokemon. Drill Run can only take care of Heatran and Zone because they are x4 weak to ground but the other Steel truly don't care about it (Celesteela, Skarm and Scizor-Mega take it neutral thx to their second type) and Excadrill (yeah kinda an inexistant mon) + Magearna can both take a hit and OHKO Beedrill in Return. Same thing for K-Off, it do like nothing (cannot OHKO Marowak-Alola with 0 HP 0 def EV kinda sucks...).
• On the other hand.. there is a huge competitor aka Pheromosa which is basically better than Beedrill-Mega for everything except to hit Fairies (more speed, more atk, more versatile.. i don't want to repeat everything was said earlier).
• Finnaly.. It take a Mega-Slot. So yeah it's not an obligation to run a mega but if you want to run one, there is no point to take Bee over Gross or Scizor. I mean if you want to beat fairy, Phero + Gross is basically better (cheap damage with Phero U-turn + Gross) and you will be not be blocked by 50% of the top tier Pokemon.
tl;dr : Don't play Beedrill-Mega and let it go in UU :x
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