The thing is that I'm not seeing Azelf on HO, i'm seeing it with Goodra-H, Wo-chin, an so on. Remember it is low ladder.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]
- Thread starter TPP
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Considering Genesect would be losing access to its Gen 5-exclusive moves like Extreme Speed, Shift Gear, and Rock Polish, this may well be Genesect's worst Gen yet.
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I haven't really seen any Dire Claw mention for the past ~10 pages, and I think it's because people realize that the "nightmare scenario" of a +2 Sneasler putting your only defensive check to sleep isn't really all that common. Not only that, but I think more people should be aware that Dire Claw on SD Unburden Sneasler is actually a suboptimal move. Your coverage is honestly better spent elsewhere, such as Fire Punch to swat away Gholdengo which otherwise hardwalls your ass, or even Gunk Shot for a way to blast apart Zapdos without even making contact. Shit, even Taunt could be more useful to be able to deny Clodsire and Toxapex of their healing and Toxic/Hazing, allowing you to break past them.
The other thing to note about relying on Dire Claw to potentially bypass a would-be check is that trying to fish for the hax is almost always worse than just trying to 2HKO the threat standing in your way. The odds of landing the sleep and the opponent not just waking up the turn after anyway is ~11.22%. The odds of paralyzing and full-para'ing your opponent is ~4.25%. This thus amounts to only ~15+% chance of truly screwing up your opponent with your Dire Claw that can lead to a sweep. This is only marginally more than 'traditional hax' that we're used to, such as getting para'd by TBolt, frozen by Ice Beam, Rock Slide/Dark Pulse flinches, or even just plain crit, and is actually less likely than "Quick Claw" utterly blindsiding you. So yeah, while you certainly can complain about getting boned by a Dire Claw Unburden Sneasler sweep, it is not actually much more consistent than your standard fare of hax; if anything, Sneasler's hax can still give you a chance to come back (early wake-up or not getting full-para'd) compared to just getting crit and dying.
The most common instance of Dire Claw abuse I see from Sneasler are from Choice Band Poison Touch variants, the ones that pop in and out of battle spreading status and momentum as much as they can. They can afford to spread status with Dire Claw much safer since they're not committed to stay in (unlike Unburden variants), but this factor also makes their hax much more tolerable and fair since the Sneaslers don't have the ability to immediately hard punish you once you do get slept. With that said, you can by all means assess whether Sneasler as a whole is broken or not (especially since the Unburden sets can still be optimized), but Dire Claw is out of the question imo.
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this is the line they're going to use as an excuse to start genesect in ou post-dlc isn't it
also, rock polish is literally never worth mentioning when the two previous words in the sentence were "shift gear"
The pool of pokemon is getting bigger and bigger, so of course hitting the threshold at around 4.5% is becoming harder for every Pokemon ... So Garchomp may become UU tomorrow or RU in 3 gen ! :)
It’s gen 16. Mega Rayquaza has dropped to ZU . Chi-Yu becomes a top tier threat in little cup and a new evolution to it is introduced called Yu-Chi. Yu-Chi is banned to Ubers due to having 1000 special attack and speed and an ability that decreases special defense by 99%. And finally, Tusk and Lando-T S are still OU with 50% usage.
Tomorrow? are they doing half-month usage-based tiering? Thank god
Viable gambit Tera types, rank your personal order
Alphabetical:
- Dark
- Ghost
- Grass
- Fairy
- Fighting
- Fire
- Flying
did I forget any ?
Have also seen water and electric although I don’t think they’re on par with the rest.
Breloom is super rare now, and amoonguss can be played around (or you can fish for a 30% MU), so Tera grass might on its way out of the viability list.
tera psychic was an interesting one brought up earlier in this thread, but I’ve never seen it.
To pick a Tera, it will depend on what you’re trying to get +2 or +4 on.
The only good thing about versing teams with gambit is that you know there’s at least a 50% chance the opponent will use Tera on the gambit.
it’s literally vying for most viable Tera (ab)user in OU. Please step aside garganacl, you’re good, but gambit is great RN.
Alphabetical:
- Dark
- Ghost
- Grass
- Fairy
- Fighting
- Fire
- Flying
did I forget any ?
Have also seen water and electric although I don’t think they’re on par with the rest.
Breloom is super rare now, and amoonguss can be played around (or you can fish for a 30% MU), so Tera grass might on its way out of the viability list.
tera psychic was an interesting one brought up earlier in this thread, but I’ve never seen it.
To pick a Tera, it will depend on what you’re trying to get +2 or +4 on.
The only good thing about versing teams with gambit is that you know there’s at least a 50% chance the opponent will use Tera on the gambit.
it’s literally vying for most viable Tera (ab)user in OU. Please step aside garganacl, you’re good, but gambit is great RN.
In the Tera dex index I also saw dragon pre-home. What does that do?
haven’t seen that before .. might be for the water, fire and even electric resists to cover a mix of strong hitters
Yep, with volc gone it's probably the best case for why Tera is unhealthy, even if gambit is worse off rn than it was pre-home (zama ban, which seems more likely than not rn although i could be wrong, would give it more breathing room though). Like volc its broken aspects would otherwise kinda be balanced out by movepool constraints as it's fairly one-dimensional there w/o tera. Instead gambit not only gets to be the best endgame mon ever made but also shift its typing to make unfavorable endgame matchups become favorable
The main thing that really irks me about Gambit, is that not only are its endgames really uninteractive where unless you run a suboptimal moveset in many mons cases u just get suckerpunched and die or u just get sded on. But literally entire games just come down to Kingambit and its Tera, just having a Kingambit on your team gives you a vastly increased chance of winning the game, every single playstyle including stall (it can use it for a wincon and its really not that bad as a defensive profile) can just abuse kingambit by having one there.
Unlike GT which checks a lot of the meta and provides utility Kingambit has just become very one note where dealing with it is becoming unreasonable, like with volc ending games because it happened to have the right MU, Kingambit also just MU fishes. The only semi reliable checks are Dondozo and GT and even then those still can get btfod by terra or that shitty LO grassknot set ive seen floating around. You could also run suboptimal mons like Water Tauros, Quaquaval or Iron hands (actually iron goat imo) but the fact you have to push this far into the list of mons just to find semi reliable counters (who can all still loose to the right tera) is obnoxious
Without Tera Kingambit would have a lot more consistent counterplay, but the thing is that every single mon that is already insanely good will always just get better with tera, IMO its getting to the point where it is ridiculous and overcentralising because you have to just assume there will be a kingambit who could be on numerous items and tera types lategame. I think if Volc is banned, then Kingambit should at least get a suspect or strong consideration for one (tera is the main culprit imo though)
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The amount of legally obtainable species right now is much lower than in previous generations. There are only 478 available species right now in SV, with ~230 more to be added by DLC. SwSh ended with 664 available species.
So all in all SV currently has less species available than DPPt, and at the end of the generation will still have less than ORAS (721 species) and USUM (807 species). This count also only accounts for distinct species and not any form change, which would further increase the count in favor of the 3DS games due to megas.
If Garchomp falls out of OU, it won't be due to the sheer number of ofher Pokémon pushing it out.
My personal ranking would probably be:
-Dark
-Fairy (I LOVE bulky Tera fairy Kingambit. It is stupid how many attacks it lives. I’ve also paired it with Rillaboom and oh boy does that put in the stupidest of work.)
-Fire (I actually see this on the ladder, more than I see Ghost or Fighting. Maybe it’s just that I’m too low?)
-Flying
-Grass
-Ghost
-Fighting (This is only so low because I both have never seen it and cannot justify it.)
Personally for me, I feel like Kingmabit is extremely similar to Volcarona thanks to Tera. What made Volcarona broken was Tera. Trying to predict which Tera Volcarona is going to be, only to lose to it for predicting wrong is what pushed Volcarona into the ban discussion. Kingambit will most likely follow a similar path. Kingambit literally pops out late game with several boosts thanks to Supreme Overlord & now the mind games begin. Now you have to ask the following questions:
1- Will he Swords Dance?
2- Will he attack directly?
3- Which tera will it be?
personally, I dont mind the first two since you can play around it, but trying to force Kingambit to Tera & then realizing that your Pokemon who beats this Teratype is dead is what pushes Kingambit to the Ban list. So many times I lost just because Kingambit Terastalized into a typing I didn't expect. Even if you expect it, the fact it loses its 4X weakness to fighting & its weakness to ground & fire (Three amazing offensive typings) when Terastalizing only to gain weakness to types rarely seen in OU makes it so hard to beat….
Kingambit naturally resists Rock & Ice, so Tera Flying is great for it.
Kingambit naturally resists Steel & is immune to poison, so Tera Fairy is great for it.
There are so many Teras that benefit Kingambit similar to Volcarona.
I am predicting the Kingambit will be banned for the same reasons as Volcarona.
1- Will he Swords Dance?
2- Will he attack directly?
3- Which tera will it be?
personally, I dont mind the first two since you can play around it, but trying to force Kingambit to Tera & then realizing that your Pokemon who beats this Teratype is dead is what pushes Kingambit to the Ban list. So many times I lost just because Kingambit Terastalized into a typing I didn't expect. Even if you expect it, the fact it loses its 4X weakness to fighting & its weakness to ground & fire (Three amazing offensive typings) when Terastalizing only to gain weakness to types rarely seen in OU makes it so hard to beat….
Kingambit naturally resists Rock & Ice, so Tera Flying is great for it.
Kingambit naturally resists Steel & is immune to poison, so Tera Fairy is great for it.
There are so many Teras that benefit Kingambit similar to Volcarona.
I am predicting the Kingambit will be banned for the same reasons as Volcarona.
I honestly see a Tera suspect coming before any potential Kingambit action, both due to the reason that you mentioned and due to it unfortunately being almost a necessary evil for the present meta by being able to offensively keep in check both fast sweepers and Ghost spam that would otherwise ravage most non-Balance/Stall teams.
Yea I agree. Tera suspect is most likely since its obvious that most Pokemons that are worth banning is due to Tera (Volc, Eleki, Gambit) even Pokemons like Chien Pao might be balanced with Tera ban.
Me too. I did not in any post call for banning KingGambit. I want Tera gone.
I mean yeah, that mon is bulky and strong but does it really is unhealthy? It isn't like a lot of players are forced to use a not OU mon just to deal with it like Pao with the Tauros or Treads for Leki, the tier itself has several tools to get around it and its reliance on sucker punch is a big drawback.
Red Raven
I COULD BE BANNED!
Honestly, I feel like that third question is the biggest problem with tera. For me, what really makes tera that much more annoying is the fact that in every single game, you can easily get destroyed by a surprise motherfucker tera. The guesswork can easily screw you over. Even vgc has recognized that tera can cause such a huge clusterfuck that they had that open teamsheets thing. I mean, I won't be opposed if tera gets banned but I wanna try first where at all times, we can see if the other guy has used their tera, which pokemon they used their tera on and more importantly, to be able to see what type of tera a pokemon before the battle and when it's on the field. During the tera suspect test, I always felt that part of the reason no action was taken was simply because there were too many other options on what to do with it. Iirc, tera team preview would have won if it wasn't for all those extra options
They added that because a technical question, SV doesn't have the option to block the team for tournaments like all the older gens so players could change their teams between matches, to avoid that since it is against the rules they made the open sheet rule so if a player noticed that the rival had something different from what the sheet says then he can report it and that person gets disqualified for breaking the rules. VGC players actually like it because not only reduces the guess games but also prevents scouting that causes a lot of drama, but that is another thing.
Ash Borer
I've heard they're short of room in hell
Extremespeed is a very large part of Genesect's repertoire. Whenever its been briefly legal in OU over the years I almost never used a set that didnt have that move. +1 Extremespeed was always far too valuable to expend, even on a specially biased set. Three special attack + u-turn sets were just not it.
Also not sure what you mean by losing rock polish being irrelevant because it lost shift gear? Rock Polish was a good set, and if Gene lost Shift Gear and not Rock Polish, then... I'm sure you can see the point by now.
The ultimate point here is that Genesect is severely weakened by losing all three of these moves. My opinion is that Choice Band and Shift Gear were the most powerful sets. But now its Choice Band set is kind of bad without E-Speed, and it has no boosting moves. This is going to relegate Gene to Choice Scarf sets, Choice Specs, and some Expert Belt deceptions.
Still obviously very powerful, and Tera-water might be kinda cheesy, but the loss of these moves is a huge hit to power and I think would warrant a test.
Not true, there have been official tournaments that don't use Tera preview in Japan.
It's a choice.
https://victoryroadvgc.com/2023-japan/
Day 2 is played with open team lists, except Tera Types, which are closed.
A lot of tournaments just add it because it's popular and the TO's do it. They clearly don't have to, and in the months since this tournament (where Stantler got Top 8 because of a Bo1 ladder format to qualify), Tera Preview is still in the majority of events.
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Red Raven
I COULD BE BANNED!
Do you mean those battle box things that other games have or something else entirely?
That was Wolfey said on one video a while ago, things may have changed since that but at least that was the explanation that a VGC tournament players said about that.
Yeah, this was from March, so about 5ish months after the game came out, so I can see where the misconception would lie. But yeah, I took that line directly from Victory Road, as linked.
In short: Tera Preview is something that is optional to be ran for VGC tournaments. they just do it anyways.
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